Compounding and Polishing a 2017 Mustang

[scottmoyer]

A few months back, I mentioned that I have a 2017 Mustang GT that had hard water damage. I had a local detailer wetsand the factory paint down to 1200 to remove the marks, and it didn't work. Ford would not replace the car and would only authorize a complete repaint of the car since the damage covered all panels. The car was completely sanded and repainted. The shop did a great job, but...

When I got the car home, I noticed swirl marks and sanding marks that weren't polished out by the shop. I tried fixing it with my Porter Cable, Meguiar's 100 compound and a Lake Country CCS orange pad, Meguiar's 205 polish and a Lake Country CCS white pad. I got the majority of the finish looking good, but it's still not where I want it to be. The car has too many hard curves for this setup.

My question, should I continue using the setup I have been, but tape things up and just use more pressure and more compounds, or should I use my Flex with the wool pad/compound and the foam pad/polish? The Flex uses an 8" 3M wool pad and the 8" Perfect-It foam polishing pad. My thought is that these pads can compound/polish with their edges, where the Porter Cable doesn't seem to rotate well in the tight places and is leaving the original swirls still in the tight places.

I already worked the hood and roof with the porter cable (3x), but the sides and the A/B pillars need more. What am I doing wrong where I still see swirls after compounding and polishing?

Hood (looks great):

From 10 feet away after repaint:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

A few months back, I mentioned that I have a 2017 Mustang GT that had hard water damage.

One thing I always say and that's in my opinion and experience, removing water spots is one of the most difficult procedure as it relates to doing correction work.

This is why I am always amazed how much the masses LOVE WATER BEADING.

They don't understand all those really cool looking water beads can turn into water spots. Now whatcha going to do? :laughing:

I had a local detailer wetsand the factory paint down to 1200 to remove the marks, and it didn't work.

That detailing needs to have someone send him the link to this article so he can read the words and look at the pictures.




Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips


The majority of cars being manufactured today and starting since the 1980's use what's called a basecoat/clearcoat paint system. With this system, a clear layer of paint is sprayed over the top of the basecoat which is also the color coat or the layer of paint that has pigment in it. If the car has a metallic finish then the metallic flakes are also in the basecoat.

The basecoat doesn't offer any gloss or shine and in fact it's dull or matte looking after it's sprayed. The basecoat gets it's gloss, shine, depth and reflectivity by the spraying of the clearcoat layer of paint over the top of it. This is why if a person removes too much clearcoat when buffing and they expose the basecoat it will appear to be a dull round or oval spot on a body panel. The part of the paint system that adds beauty has been removed revealing the dull or matte basecoat layer of paint.



Just how thin is the clear layer of paint on a factory paint job?

The factory clearcoat on a new or modern car measures approximately 2 mils thin.

The average post-it not is around 3 mils thin.

What does this mean?

This means the factory clearcoat on a new or modern car is thinner than a post-it note.

The next time you have a post-it note in front of you, feel a single post-it note between your fingers. Like this...

This experience will drive home the point as to just how thin the clear layer of paint is on modern car with a factory paint job.

It should also drive home the importance of using the least aggressive pad, product and even tools to get the job done.

When I say, get the job done, the context of this usually means someone is buffing out a car to remove paint defects like swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation to make the paint and thus the car look better.

By using the least aggressive products you "get the job done" while leaving the most paint on the car to it will last over the mechanical service life of the car.

If you're working on your own cars and you're reading this you're already ahead of the game by reading the AGO forum and probably being a member so you can ask questions and get help.

If you're working on customer's cars take a professional approach as a service to your customers.


If you're reading this and you're going to do the work yourself or hire a detailer then do some research and make sure you hire a detailer that knows this type of stuff because the factory clearcoat on your car is thin.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Wow!

#1200 Grit Sanding paper?

That is so caveman.

Even if a person were to START at #1200 they would HAVE TO then re-sand with #1500, then #2000 and then #2500 or #3000 by machine AND THEN they could TRY to remove their sanding marks but the PROBLEM would be they would already be through the clearcoat and pulling color on their buffing pad.

This is one example of what I teach in my classes, that is to not wetsand factory paint with such low grit sandpapers as there's simply not enough paint on the car to treat the car as though it has a CUSTOM paint job.

I FULLY explain this topic in an article I wrote 9 years ago.... maybe share this article with your detailer so he doesn't sand someone else's factory clear coat with #1200 grit in the future.

Wetsanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint


Also just to add....

Even if it were possible to put a factory clearcoat though such an aggressive sanding procedure, and that's a huge IF - whatever was left of the clearcoat on the car will now fail when exposed to the intense sun and rain here in Florida.



:dunno:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Ford would not replace the car and would only authorize a complete repaint of the car since the damage covered all panels. The car was completely sanded and repainted.

The shop did a great job, but...

When I got the car home, I noticed swirl marks and sanding marks that weren't polished out by the shop.

And that my friend is the NORMAL results from body shops here in America and my guess around the world.

Sad... but it keeps pros busy as a true educated detailer can undo the damage left by a body shop or dealership.

I tried fixing it with my Porter Cable, Meguiar's 100 compound and a Lake Country CCS orange pad, Meguiar's 205 polish and a Lake Country CCS white pad. I got the majority of the finish looking good, but it's still not where I want it to be. The car has too many hard curves for this setup.

My question,

should I continue using the setup I have been, but tape things up and just use more pressure and more compounds,

or

should I use my Flex with the wool pad/compound and the foam pad/polish?

The Flex uses an 8" 3M wool pad and the 8" Perfect-It foam polishing pad. My thought is that these pads can compound/polish with their edges, where the Porter Cable doesn't seem to rotate well in the tight places and is leaving the original swirls still in the tight places.

You didn't state WHICH FLEX you own and while I hate assuming - because you stated it has a 8" wool pad I'm going to assume it's a rotary buffer.


In my opinion and experience, the fastest and most effective way (that's 2 things, not just 1 thing), to remove all of the sanding marks is to use a rotary buffer with a wool pad. The PROBLEM with this combination is it WILL leave holograms SCRATCHES in the paint. That's what I call them, because that's what they technically are, hologram scratches. This of course is normal and I just took pictures of this same type of scratch pattern that I inflicted into a car as a PART of perfecting the paint.

Battery Time - FLEX Cordless Polishers - Real World Detail by Mike Phillips at Autogeek

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


So "yes" if you want to insure all the sanding marks are removed, the carefully, like a surgeon, go around the car and buff them out using the wool pad on the FLEX rotary. (which FLEX rotary do you have? We've sold at least 3 models since I've been here?

 

[Robbo]

Not to immediately “thread drift”, but I have to mention I see my dream car, in the exact color I want in the background in your garage!

I’ve wanted one since late 1991, when a friend sold their 88 that I had been lusting after for years without telling me.

Worse...she (it was the wife’s car) actually traded it in on a Buick because she wanted “Grandma car” soft seats. I rushed down to the dealership she told me they traded it to, but it wasn’t in the cards for me to get it. I’ve still got a spot in my heart that hurts from missing out on that car!

I’ve found a few nice examples in the last couple of years, just haven’t been in that maroon color, so I passed.

Sorry again for the non-helpful post. Just some “car guy” musings...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

What am I doing wrong where I still see swirls after compounding and polishing?

And just to make sure I'm reading you correctly.... you mean,


What am I doing wrong where I still see swirls after compounding with the rotary buffer and polishing with the Porter Cable?


So you're seeing swirls after polishing with the Porter Cable?


Need specifics at this point of the process. Wicked looking Mustang by the way...

 

[Whipped500]

Not to immediately “thread drift”, but I have to mention I see my dream car, in the exact color I want in the background in your garage!

I’ve wanted one since late 1991, when a friend sold their 88 that I had been lusting after for years without telling me.

Worse...she (it was the wife’s car) actually traded it in on a Buick because she wanted “Grandma car” soft seats. I rushed down to the dealership she told me they traded it to, but it wasn’t in the cards for me to get it. I’ve still got a spot in my heart that hurts from missing out on that car!

I’ve found a few nice examples in the last couple of years, just haven’t been in that maroon color, so I passed.

Sorry again for the non-helpful post. Just some “car guy” musings...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The iroc or the pace car above?

 

[scottmoyer]

Mike, Thanks for the response. My FLEX is the LK-603VE that dates back to the late 80's. It did a fantastic job when that was all I had. At the time, I got the IROC in the background cleaned up by using the FLEX, with a 3M 5717 backing plate, the wool pad and 3M Perfect-It compound. It did leave the holograms, but then the black waffle foam pad with Perfect-It polish for dark cars brought up a beautiful shine. That was the first time I ever used a buffer.

I got the Porter Cable years later so I wouldn't burn any paint. I found out that a DA was more user friendly and less likely to damage the finish, so I've been using that, but I'm not getting the results I see others on here getting with it. I compounded the hood 3x using Meguiar's 205 and a LC orange pad, just to find out that there are still micro marrings in the finish. You can only see these "hazings" in certain shop lights, but outdoors, it looks perfect. The FLEX has not been used on the Mustang, yet. That was the question. To get this done the first time, should I just go over it with the FLEX, a wool pad and my old, or maybe new, 3M products? They worked on other cars when I had no clue what I was doing, but the DA just isn't cutting it. So I must be doing something wrong with the PC.

Thanks for the comments on the cars. They are both low mile originals that have been in my family since 2000.

 

[Robbo]

The iroc or the pace car above?

The IROC. Love it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, Thanks for the response.

My FLEX is the LK-603VE that dates back to the late 80's. It did a fantastic job when that was all I had. At the time, I got the IROC in the background cleaned up by using the FLEX, with a 3M 5717 backing plate, the wool pad and 3M Perfect-It compound. It did leave the holograms, but then the black waffle foam pad with Perfect-It polish for dark cars brought up a beautiful shine. That was the first time I ever used a buffer.

I got the Porter Cable years later so I wouldn't burn any paint. I found out that a DA was more user friendly and less likely to damage the finish, so I've been using that, but I'm not getting the results I see others on here getting with it. I compounded the hood 3x using Meguiar's 205 and a LC orange pad, just to find out that there are still micro marrings in the finish. You can only see these "hazings" in certain shop lights, but outdoors, it looks perfect. The FLEX has not been used on the Mustang, yet. That was the question. To get this done the first time, should I just go over it with the FLEX, a wool pad and my old, or maybe new, 3M products? They worked on other cars when I had no clue what I was doing, but the DA just isn't cutting it. So I must be doing something wrong with the PC.

Thanks for the comments on the cars. They are both low mile originals that have been in my family since 2000.

I'd recommend getting one product that will either troubleshoot what the problem is and/or fix the problem and that is the Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover.


Get it, use it and if it doesn't fix the problem I'll send you your money back.


3M products all state they are for use with rotary buffers.


See this article...

For Use with Rotary Buffer Only - Read the Directions

Get some new clean pads to use with the Pinnacle so you're not cross contaminating the abrasive technology in the 3M products with your new favorite polish. Get 6 of these to start fresh on your "toys"


White Lake Country 5 1/2 Inch Flat Foam Pad

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

.



And one of the most valuable articles I wrote in 2017 - read it and put what I share into practice.


How, why & when to inspect your microfiber towels when detailing cars

 

[FrankS]

Mike, when working with factory paint, in general, how aggressive would you recommend going with sanding...2000?

 

[LSNAutoDetailingLSNAutoDetailing is verified member.]

I'd recommend getting one product that will either troubleshoot what the problem is and/or fix the problem and that is the Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover.


Get it, use it and if it doesn't fix the problem I'll send you your money back.


Get some new clean pads to use with the Pinnacle so you're not cross contaminating the abrasive technology in the 3M products with your new favorite polish. Get 6 of these to start fresh on your "toys"


White Lake Country 5 1/2 Inch Flat Foam Pad

Scott, PM me. Send me an *new and improved* Autogeek 8 OZ bottle, and I'll send you a sample of Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover. Mike is right, the entire Pinnacle lineup (IMO) is my got-to.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, when working with factory paint, in general, how aggressive would you recommend going with sanding...2000?

If you want to be safe, the car in question is outside during the day, that is not a garage queen, then #3000

The reason why is because it's not JUST about removing defects via sanding without making a mistake, just as important is having enough paint or enough "material" over the basecoat to hold up over time.

I know lots of guys are talented enough to sand the factory clearcoat and not burn through or buff through the clearcoat, the problem is that they will leave the clear layer so thin that it simply has no chance to hold up when exposed to both UV light from the sun OVER TIME and also wet weather. Water is a universal solvent, it dissolves things. Add sunshine, water and wear-n-tear plus time and you have 4 things trying to break your car's already precious thin layer of paint down.


For anyone reading this into the future, if you are interested in the topic of WET SANDING - do yourself a favor and read the below article. It puts the procedure into context.

Wetsanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint



That's me hand wet sanding "The Titanic" in a parking garage in I think 1999. Note that's a CUSTOM paint job and the article I linked to above explains factor versus custom and after reading the article you'll know more than most detailers about the topic of wet sanding.l

 

[WillSports3]

When it comes to factory paint jobs, the best policy is not to sand.