DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

[Largebore]

Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.

Is their any scientific evidence that shows that wax's or sealants actually protect against anything ?

We are told that LSP are absolutely necessary for the protection of the paints finish.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...

A lot of time is spent on the forum in serious discussion as to which brand protects more, which carnuba has more wax left after the liquid evaporates and whether or not the amount of wax left has anything to do with the protection.

Protectiion is a primary motivator for people buying these products, yet I have not seen anything scientific that shows that the LSP's provide any sort of protection against anything.

Some posts call this protection an urban legend. Some say that the LSP's cannot reduce UV, salt, bird poop or dirt contamination at all !

So other than perpetuating the urban legend that infact LSP's do something beside make your car shiny, nothing wrong with that by the way, is their any scientific evidence to support the theory that they do infact provide protection and that the protection that they might provide in anyway enhances the longevity and quality of the finish ? And if so to what extent ?

 

[EPA7]

Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.

Is their any scientific evidence that shows that wax's or sealants actually protect against anything ?

We are told that LSP are absolutely necessary for the protection of the paints finish.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...

A lot of time is spent on the forum in serious discussion as to which brand protects more, which carnuba has more wax left after the liquid evaporates and whether or not the amount of wax left has anything to do with the protection.

Protectiion is a primary motivator for people buying these products, yet I have not seen anything scientific that shows that the LSP's provide any sort of protection against anything.

Some posts call this protection an urban legend. Some say that the LSP's cannot reduce UV, salt, bird poop or dirt contamination at all !

So other than perpetuating the urban legend that infact LSP's do something beside make your car shiny, nothing wrong with that by the way, is their any scientific evidence to support the theory that they do infact provide protection and that the protection that they might provide in anyway enhances the longevity and quality of the finish ? And if so to what extent ?

Great question! :xyxthumbs:
I've been wondering that myself. So much discussion on swirl removal, etching, sealants, and waxes, yet it seems that if the sealants and waxes were really effective, there wouldn't be much need for swirl removal or dealing with etching.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I think Dr. G would say that Opti-Coat is the beef.

Many of us have been frustrated to see a bird poop eat right through a fresh coat of LSP, but anecdotally, you can see the cars that aren't cared for all have CC failure or the paint worn off.

I guess a traditional LSP doesn't do A LOT, but it seems to do SOMETHING. Plus, the bird poop comes off a lot easier with a fresh coat of LSP

 

[Perfections]

This is just my own personal observation and is in no way backed by scientific proof but it seems paint sealants protect better against man made hazards while carnauba waxes protect better against mother nature created stuff like bird poop. While this was not what I expected because in my mind paint sealants are designed to last longer then waxes so thus I figured the protection would be better against things like bird poop but haven't seen it.

 

[builthatch]

I guess a traditional LSP doesn't do A LOT, but it seems to do SOMETHING. Plus, the bird poop comes off a lot easier with a fresh coat of LSP

this is correct; it provides somewhat of a sacrificial barrier; acids, whether organic or otherwise, are nasty - opti-coat is the ultimate solution against them.

well-built and properly applied LSPs will essentially "trap" a lot of the things that damage paint, like residual water mineral, road grime, etc., and obviously make the surface less apt to hold dirt and easier to clean...but they certainly aren't a forcefield, haha.

2.0 is sensational.

 

[Largebore]

The debate is certainly a longstanding one, although my carnuba did not protect against 100% natural bird poop.

But staying on topic, what would be very interesting is "scientific evidence"

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

The debate is certainly a longstanding one, although my Carnauba did not protect against 100% natural bird poop.

But staying on topic, what would be very interesting is "scientific evidence"

I have something that explains this in my article here. The point you bring up is brought up all the time, ever since I started teaching classes at Meguiar's so I finally put down on paper or rather pixel what the skinny is...

Here's the article,


How long does it take for a bird dropping to etch paint?

Here's the pertinent point...

What's the best wax or paint sealant to protect against bird droppings?
This incident really drives home the point that on the topic of protection and that's ANYTHING corrosive enough to harm or etch a modern clear coat paint is strong enough and/or corrosive enough to eat through and obliterate any micron thin layer of wax or paint sealant from any company.

Think about it... the clear layer of paint is harder and thicker than the thin layer of whatever wax or paint sealant you apply, let dry and then wipe off your car's paint to protect it.

Note: All of the above was written before Dr. Ghodoussi introduced paint coatings...

 

[EPA7]

The debate is certainly a longstanding one, although my carnuba did not protect against 100% natural bird poop.

But staying on topic, what would be very interesting is "scientific evidence"

The only "scientific" evidence I've seen is from NuFinish back in the day, and the modern version of NuFinish they sell at fairs and infomercials where they light sterno on the finish and it miraculously survives. (scientific in quotes because both were more akin to parlor tricks than science, but at least they attempted to address the durability and protection question).

I would love to see the kind of testing results for these boutique products that CR does, or that paint companies do.

Maybe Mike or some of the other principals in these car care product companies can point us toward some objective research on durability and protection?

 

[Ted S.]

Can't comment for the good doctor, but if you've ever clayed a car that hasn't been waxed (ever, or for 6+ months) vs. one that is regularly waxed; the clay will speak for itself.

 

[Largebore]

I have something that explains this in my article here. The point you bring up is brought up all the time, ever since I started teaching classes at Meguiar's so I finally put down on paper or rather pixel what the skinny is...

Here's the article,


How long does it take for a bird dropping to etch paint?

Here's the pertinent point...





Note: All of the above was written before Dr. Ghodoussi introduced paint coatings...

OK, can we strike off the list, protection from bird poop as one of the purported protection benefits of LSP's ?

 

[Detail_Dude]

Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...

How much time went by between when it landed and when you removed it? I am not and expert, but imagine longer duration = greater potential negative results.

I've missed a train to work because I parked my car in the lot, saw a bird dropping from the night before and felt compelled to remove it immediately on my DD (jet black). I keep a couple of MF's and a small 4oz spray bottle of QD in my trunk.

 

[Largebore]

As "Ted.S" & "builthatch" point out the LSP does 'seem" to make the surface less apt to hold dirt. Defintely a benefit in my book as the dirt is more likely to scratch the surface...

An important point perhaps, is that the LSP's are not a barrier or forcefield. I think that they are often portrayed as such.

But in anycase, notwithstanding some very relevant observations and experiences I would still find the objective scientific evidence of great interest.. I mean someone other than the guy igniting his hood with lighter fluid must have done scientific research? UV protection? Waterpenetration? Oxidation ?

 

[Largebore]

How much time went by between when it landed and when you removed it? I am not and expert, but imagine longer duration = greater potential negative results.

I've missed a train to work because I parked my car in the lot, saw a bird dropping from the night before and felt compelled to remove it immediately on my DD (jet black). I keep a couple of MF's and a small 4oz spray bottle of QD in my trunk.

4 hours

 

[richy]

Other than maybe battery acid, bird merde is about the worst thing you can get on your paint. Not to mention the probability of getting hit by a bird is fairly high over the life of the car. It is highly acidic and even worse contains small stones, rocks, etc that help with the bird's digestion.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but, there is NO magic solution against it. Besides the obvious that not all bird bombs are the same, the longer it sits, the worse it will be. OC is the best you can have, but even it is not impervious to the damage that the bird bomb can do. The key is very timely removal in a safe a fashion as possible. No guarantees on what damage may occur even very quickly. It's beyond your control. Remove it quickly and safely is all you can do.

 

[Chris Thomas]

I was tapping out a reply, then realized I was speaking from experience. While my experience is documented with pictures and testimonials...it's not scientifically presented. So...I've made Dr. G aware of the thread and he'll answer it as time permits.

A couple of things I find remarkable about Optimum Protection Products:

• Regarding Optimum Car Wax:
  
  With continued use, Optimum Car Wax's UV ingredients actually permeate the paint and restore OEM UV inhibitors that were used up/lost.

• Regarding Optimum Paint Coatings:
  
  Our distributor in Australia posed this question:
  
  "I've been doing some testing by leaving bird bombs on the paint for extended periods. On more than one occasion it has left some slight etching after a few weeks, but then this etching later disappears. It isn't getting washed off, because I checked the etching after the wash to make sure it was still present. But then by the next wash it has already disappeared. I didn't think too much off it until a client of ours said he experienced the same thing. Anyone got an explanation for this??? "
  
  Dr Ghodoussi's reply:
  
  "What happens is the "etching" you see is in fact a stain on the coating. Not etching as the acid doesn't damage the coating. After a few days this stain breaks down in the heat of the sun and disappears."

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I always thought the "disappearing stain" was due to some permeation of the paint by the contaminant, and then it outgasses and goes away (so maybe the same thing that Dr. G was saying). Conversely, it seems to me that I've had worse results by immediately going over the area with LSP after cleaning, which seems to seal the "stain" in, and result in more damage.

 

[Ted S.]

UV protection? Water penetration? Oxidation

I cannot comment anything significant as to UV protection...

To me, all waxes/sealants are specialized grease that is designed to barrier paint from externalities, specifically environmental factors such as airborne particles (dirt, dust, industrial fallout, etc.), water, and air.

Long term exposure to oxygen would cause oxidation in the paint (just as when steel is exposed to oxygen, it form the compound know to us as rust). Similar concept, unless oxidized paint is a misnomer for a different phenomenon. Wax would create the barrier the paint needs to keep from long term exposure to oxygen, thus preventing oxidation.

When it comes to water penetration, since wax and sealants are basically specialized grease, they possess some hydrophobic properties, seen by us as beading/sheeting properties. The tighter the beads (that is, the more spherical vs. semispherical or even non-spherical) or the faster the sheeting means the more hydrophobic the wax is, thus having better resistance to water penetration. But since water is ultimately a corrosive solvent (example, the Grand Canyon), it can degrade the wax over the course of time, especially if the water has a lower ph.

Just from my experience with using waxes and sealants, the barrier does do quite a bit so long as a barrier (wax/sealant) is maintained or reapplied as needed (depends on environmental factors).

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

OK, can we strike off the list, protection from bird poop as one of the purported protection benefits of LSP's ?

Hey like I posted, if the acids in bird poo are strong enough to etch paint then they are strong enough to eat through a micron or even sub-micron layer of anything.

Maybe some coatings will prove to be better at blocking these acids from getting to the paint, time will tell.

Just because a coat of wax or a paint sealant won't stop acid from getting to the paint that's not a reason to stop waxing your car. A quality car wax and/or paint sealant still provides more protection than nothing at all plus it provides,

• Uniform appearance
• Improved appearance

We polished a swirled out 1968 Firebird last night and while it looked GREAT after the last polishing step it was the last step product that completely evened out the appearance AND maxed out the gloss.


Before

After

The above thrashed paint was restored using Optimum products and the frosting on the cake is Optimum Car Wax.

I "think" that if the owner David leaves the car parked outside and a bird poops on the paint and the bird poo is not removed immediately, it's going to eat through the Optimum Car Wax and leave either a Type I or a Type II Bird Dropping Etching.

Assuming that's true, I would never stop using a quality wax, paint sealant or coating because it can't stop the acids found in bird poo because it creates such a GREAT looking finish that's slick and protected against other less corrosive elements.

It could be Mother Nature is still one up on both in this specific order,

1. Paint manufactures
2. Car Care Product Manufactures

Each person can decide for themselves if to use a wax or not, that's up to them, as for me I like how the Firebird came out looking with a coat of wax...

The only thing better than looking at the paint on this car would be driving it...

 

[Chris Thomas]

I always thought the "disappearing stain" was due to some permeation of the paint by the contaminant, and then it outgasses and goes away (so maybe the same thing that Dr. G was saying). Conversely, it seems to me that I've had worse results by immediately going over the area with LSP after cleaning, which seems to seal the "stain" in, and result in more damage.

Actually, the stain remains on top of the coating and doesn't permeate it. That's why when it breaks down, it doesn't leave etching.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Actually, the stain remains on top of the coating and doesn't permeate it. That's why when it breaks down, it doesn't leave etching.

I'm sorry, I think I read the original post wrong, I guess you/Dr. G were referring to stains on OC, while I was referring to stains/etching on the paint itself. My anecdotal experience seems that when you clean a bird bomb off and it leaves a mark/stain/etch, that it's better to let it breathe for a while before you go over it with LSP. I've also had success putting baking soda paste on it for a while. But they are all different.