"Drywash" compared to water washes

[swanicyouth]

Are you guys talking about a specefic WW product or WW in general?

 

[Bates Detailing]

I was talkin about "drywash" in general

 

[Bates Detailing]

I am in favor of this type of wash and have been using them since 2004. It's really pretty simple.....you don't use this type of product on a filthy muddy car! As the man said you need to know what can and can not be drywashed. A little common sense goes a long way.

Some have clay in them while some do not so that's not a universal ingredient. Some strictly clean adding nothing to the surface while others clean, fill, and add products to shine the surface and make it slick. I've got six different ones by various manufacturers. They all do essentially the same thing but some do it much better than others. My next one will be Blackfire's version to see how well it performs.

You have more experience than myself it seems having each ww or drywash out there..... very glad to see it works for you too man :dblthumb2:

Hey Anthony...

First of all...Congratulations, again, on your successful Business!!!...I wish you nothing but a continuation of this achievement, with attainment of further growth.

Secondly...I do hope you're getting not only some much needed "repair of the body, mind and soul" sleep (R.E.M.&N.R.E.M.), but also some quality time with the family...(The Kids will be up and gone sooner than you think. It happened to me, and I have moments now when I regret it immensely.)

Thirdly...I never argue with how a person becomes successful in ones workaday-life/career choice(s)...If they've found the formula that is suitable for them, why do so?
I deem, then, and I'm positive that you concur: Such is the case with you.



Bob

Thanx Bob - you are very right about the kids...... I feel like Im losing more and more time with them, so maybe I'll take a break like Flash soon - - - took like 6 months or so off here last year and got alot more done lol.

Holy cow--if I was you and it was taking me that long to do a wash I would definitely want to switch to a rinseless wash. It takes me 1.5-2 to do a foam gun/hose wash, and that's a lot of prep, washing, rinsing, blowing, drying, etc.

I got no problem with you using what you like, but I can't see a pro detailer taking that long to do a wash, that's too long, man!

It does take time to do it properly, but this also includes a thorough vac, jambs, windows in and out, tires, wheels, wheel wells, etc. Takes time to do a good job.

I lean in Anthony's direction on this one. He has perfected his method of using this product to the point where his customers are happy and his business is booming. If he claims the cars are remaining swirl free after two yrs of application using a common sense approach ,I see no reason to argue otherwise. I now use Ecosmart by CG after Anthony's original thread covering waterless washing and have had good success after a short learning curve. Now this isn't for the 4x4 after coming back from the local mud bog but directed at the average DD that receives scheduled maintenance washes.
Something addressed in a couple earlier replies to this thread mentioned was dirty wheel barrels. We are basically talking about a quick type maintenance wash on a DD where I personally will clean around the back of spokes etc as well as possible with a woolie or daytona wheel brush. If someone ask about the inner barrels then I explain they can be treated with a decon gel or spray at a additional cost. Other up sells are mentioned such as motor clean , coatings, interior protectant etc at the point of original contact.

Thanx man :dblthumb2:

 

[Setec Astronomy]

It does take time to do it properly, but this also includes a thorough vac, jambs, windows in and out, tires, wheels, wheel wells, etc. Takes time to do a good job.

Oh, I thought it was 1.5-2 hours just for the wash part, silly me. Sorry!

 

[Hoytman]

I think of it like this....
How thick is the layer of lubricity?
How thick is a grain of sand?
The grain of sand is probably 1000 times larger.
So, any grain of sand or salt that drags along that car has the potential to protrude through the ultrathin layer of product and scratch the vehicle.

I like this analogy and post, but perhaps see it (Corey's comments) differently than most, but I like to think he and I are on the same page here. I'm sure he'll chime in if he disagress.

I see the comments (and would agree) saying that any dirt sized particles larger than the thickness of lubricity cannot be picked up, and/or surrounded by the polymers. In other words, its almost like it's a marketing gimmic...for dirt larger than they layer of lubricity.

Do I think the polymers encapsulate dirt? Yes. The question then becomes, "What size dirt particles?" It's not like anyone keeps a measuring device on their person to take measurements. I'll use dust size particles from, say the local baseball field on a windy day. Then you have to factor in how much dirt, via the length of exposed time, is on the vehicle. Then, and someone else mentioned it earlier as well, you have to consider fiber length on the cloth being used to trap the dirt. Lots of factors, a lot at stake.

I lean heavily in the direction Corey and Flannigan are taking, but...

Am I arguing with the other guys success? No. Nor do I have any grounds to say his witness of 2 years worth of use is false. That's not fair to him. I'm not there, so I can't make a judgement call on that. I can only take him at his word. Do I have reservations about it? Sure. However, as far as his success with a given product, even I can't argue with hit business growth. I'd keep doing what's working, that's for sure, even if results defied my own logic.

 

[02CAMSS]

Dry wash ??It just sounds bad.. LOL

 

[2old2change]

Dry wash ??It just sounds bad.. LOL

The correct term would be waterless wash such as Ecosmart or Opti-clean.

 

[Bates Detailing]

Oh, I thought it was 1.5-2 hours just for the wash part, silly me. Sorry!

Lol - no worries man..... Im never very specific I think.

I like this analogy and post, but perhaps see it (Corey's comments) differently than most, but I like to think he and I are on the same page here. I'm sure he'll chime in if he disagress.

I see the comments (and would agree) saying that any dirt sized particles larger than the thickness of lubricity cannot be picked up, and/or surrounded by the polymers. In other words, its almost like it's a marketing gimmic...for dirt larger than they layer of lubricity.

Do I think the polymers encapsulate dirt? Yes. The question then becomes, "What size dirt particles?" It's not like anyone keeps a measuring device on their person to take measurements. I'll use dust size particles from, say the local baseball field on a windy day. Then you have to factor in how much dirt, via the length of exposed time, is on the vehicle. Then, and someone else mentioned it earlier as well, you have to consider fiber length on the cloth being used to trap the dirt. Lots of factors, a lot at stake.

I lean heavily in the direction Corey and Flannigan are taking, but...

Am I arguing with the other guys success? No. Nor do I have any grounds to say his witness of 2 years worth of use is false. That's not fair to him. I'm not there, so I can't make a judgement call on that. I can only take him at his word. Do I have reservations about it? Sure. However, as far as his success with a given product, even I can't argue with hit business growth. I'd keep doing what's working, that's for sure, even if results defied my own logic.

It seems if this is the argument that it can also be turned around on water washes. Using a mitt and gently wiping a piece of crud with soap and water is the same to me minus the higher lubricity. Or even pressure washing crud off a vehicle sure it can and will "bounce" off some other part of the paint creating a micro scratch. Either way you have to be very careful not to mar the paint - and either way one can mar the paint. If someone goes to town (aggression wise) with the 2 bucket method, it will surely mar the paint..... if someone goes to town with the "drywash" method, it will surely mar the paint. May be two totally different methods but both can produce great results without marring the paint, and both can produce garbage results when used improperly.

Dry wash ??It just sounds bad.. LOL

I was just talking about that today lol - I might start calling it the hand wash method from now on lol.


We have had SO many instances where clients have been very weary of our using this method and basically watch us like a hawk while working (annoying by the way lol). Then they are amazed by the results produced..... and we get called back or referred.

 

[Hoytman]

I would agree with that as well. As you stated earlier, you have to know when to use it and when not to...the other alternative being a regular wash. Care has to be taken either way.

My only intent in posting was just to say that I'm still "iffy about it", and if you like something, stick with it by all means...especially if the business is growing as a result. I won't argue with success...

 

[storm100]

Kudos Anthony! In the last year of my business I have not experienced any marring either. I do however practice a lot of common sense and if there is even one grain of sand on the paint, I will either hit it with air or squirt it with some water. Do what works for you. :dblthumb2:

 

[Shane731]

I have used both waterless and rinseless washes, and while I think both have their place, I personally am still the most comfortable with a traditional wash. Just feels right to me. Working at a Honda dealership, I do have access to brand new cars (including black) that have not yet been touched by the detail department (or from the factory, which means they are just dirty from sitting and being in transit). I may take the time one day to do some testing with rinseless and waterless washes on a brand new black car and post the results back here. I have the new Blackfire rinseless wash, the new ONR, Poorboy's Spray and Wipe, Blackfire waterless wash, and Meguiar's Ultimate Wash and Wax Anywhere. Thoughts?

 

[Cman8]

Anthony good to see your business is going good. Havent posted here in a bit but now am back to it. I have used the CG ecosmart with awesome results. I know I posted pics here once of how awesome it beads, people thought that I had waxed my car. Sometimes when my car is really dirty I just rinse, foam with the foam cannon, rinse again then take it in the garage and do a waterless to finish. results come out awesome and IMO I have had better luck and looks with this that with a traditional 2 bucket method. I like both but sometimes prefer the ease of the waterless.

 

[Kristopher1129]

You know I have all the respect in the world for what you do, and what you've done with your business. You run a more than respectful business, and do fantastic work.

Be that as it may. I'm definitely one of those who absolutely thinks a pressure wash will always provide a better wash. IMO, there's not much argument. Where you're spraying and wiping the surface...I'm blasting inside wheel wells, crevices, around emblems, and pushing dirt out and away from the vehicle in any hiding spot.

I don't doubt that you can wipe a vehicle down effectively with some clean MFs, and your waterless product. For hitting up vehicles that are done regularly outside their business, home, etc...it's perfect. It's quick, and cosmetically does a good job. To me, it's an express service.

But, in all reality...you're missing a lot of dirt that hides beyond anything you can't just spray and wipe clean. It works...but to me, it's limited.

For example...I would never do one of my higher up services, and prep the car using a waterless wash. There's just areas that you can't really get.

How do you get the inner wheel hubs, wheel wells (especially when there's sound dampening material), grill, engine and underhood, around lug nuts, etc. The list is endless.

I'm with a pressure washer and a foam cannon. Can't beat it if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong. I've done waterless washes myself. But not with the intentions of doing a full detail to follow. It was simply a quickie service.

I guess it depends on in what respect you feel it "works". As a quick clean up of the exterior...yes, I'd say it works and can be done mar free. Do I think it's the most effective way to clean a vehicle? Absolutely not.

 

[Jomax]

If you don't mind me asking, what brand rinse less wash do you use?? What wash mitts do you use to help reduce marring etc and what type of MF do you use to dry?

 

[Bates Detailing]

Anthony good to see your business is going good. Havent posted here in a bit but now am back to it. I have used the CG ecosmart with awesome results. I know I posted pics here once of how awesome it beads, people thought that I had waxed my car. Sometimes when my car is really dirty I just rinse, foam with the foam cannon, rinse again then take it in the garage and do a waterless to finish. results come out awesome and IMO I have had better luck and looks with this that with a traditional 2 bucket method. I like both but sometimes prefer the ease of the waterless.

Good to hear man :dblthumb2: Welcome back too....

You know I have all the respect in the world for what you do, and what you've done with your business. You run a more than respectful business, and do fantastic work.

Be that as it may. I'm definitely one of those who absolutely thinks a pressure wash will always provide a better wash. IMO, there's not much argument. Where you're spraying and wiping the surface...I'm blasting inside wheel wells, crevices, around emblems, and pushing dirt out and away from the vehicle in any hiding spot.

I don't doubt that you can wipe a vehicle down effectively with some clean MFs, and your waterless product. For hitting up vehicles that are done regularly outside their business, home, etc...it's perfect. It's quick, and cosmetically does a good job. To me, it's an express service.

But, in all reality...you're missing a lot of dirt that hides beyond anything you can't just spray and wipe clean. It works...but to me, it's limited.

For example...I would never do one of my higher up services, and prep the car using a waterless wash. There's just areas that you can't really get.

How do you get the inner wheel hubs, wheel wells (especially when there's sound dampening material), grill, engine and underhood, around lug nuts, etc. The list is endless.

I'm with a pressure washer and a foam cannon. Can't beat it if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong. I've done waterless washes myself. But not with the intentions of doing a full detail to follow. It was simply a quickie service.

I guess it depends on in what respect you feel it "works". As a quick clean up of the exterior...yes, I'd say it works and can be done mar free. Do I think it's the most effective way to clean a vehicle? Absolutely not.

How do you get the inner wheel hubs, wheel wells (especially when there's sound dampening material), grill, engine and underhood, around lug nuts, etc. The list is endless.

I am so extremely exhausted from workinga 17 hour day but feel like I need to almost prove myself after these comments. We hit all these we our own technique - not sure what you mean by dampening material, maybe the fabric in wheel wells? But yes - underhood is cake, engine is steamed, wheel wells can be a pain but we do get them cleaned and dressed (you can see in our pics) - Lug nuts we spray cleaner in and use a brush to agitate then use a MF on end of brush to remove. We have our methods man, all though different I am still able to perform a top notch detail in a non express manner.

Here are some pics from this last weeks work ..... all drywash prepped..... correction, one steps, Class B RV that was horribly caked in pollen, etc. All pre-drywashed with wonderful end results :

I don't think everyone realizes that I started detailing aircraft before vehicles. I would NEVER blast a power washer in the landing gear to get it clean - and landing gear is ten times worse than any wheel well I have encountered. How do I get it clean then? By hand! This is what I have done for years and have incorporated it into automotive as well. We produce stunning details and do so by prepping with drywash. Why on earth would I give a customer back a vehicle with dirty emblems, wheel wells, underhood, etc?!?!? I will not except any less from any other pro detailer on here. Just because my method is completely different than most on here doesn't mean I produce solely express details or will take 300 bucks from a client and give them a half done car lol. I take great pride in my work and wish people realized that instead of scrutinizing how the turnaround was engineered.

Im EXHAUSTED and need some sleep (another 15 + hour day starting in 5 hours) - good night AG.

 

[RTexasF]

You have more experience than myself it seems having each ww or drywash out there..... very glad to see it works for you too man

I may have started using this process earlier than you did but I can say without question that you have done a great deal more vehicles than I. The product that I still use today is the grandaddy of them all having been brought on the market in 1988. Detailing "gurus" on various sites all advised that it was not going to work, a lousy product, would ruin the paint, yada -yada - yada. Of course none had ever seen it much less used it. That is when I decided the armchair quarterbacks could all pee off, I was going to try it. It's still the best of the collection I have acquired over time and I still use it today. No names, not sold here.

A very close runner up was Chemical Guys ONE. CG developed a different brand name for it and some other products since which priced it out of sight. That killed it for me.

I took this picture some years back to show where the limit is for these types of products on another forum. That was my car at the time and the finish did not get all mucked up from using a "drywash" I did however use about 20% more than usual along with extra caution. It was just a personal experiment to see how far I could go but hardly practical. With my car as the test bed I knew I could use this particular product on customer cars without worry.

 

[Kristopher1129]

I'm certain you hit all those areas. But in reality...you are spending WAY more time to do that by not using a pressure washer. Instead you have to go and hit all that stuff by hand, which I'm sure you'd agree takes much longer.

That's all I'm saying. Though it may work, and you've managed to produce a quality job without a pressure washer or traditional wash...it's certainly not the most efficient way to handle it. I think that's where most of the comments and stuff come from.

It seems as though you hate to hear negative feedback on your drywash method...but yet you keep making threads sort of promoting it, or almost justifying it. A lot of times I feel like you think it's better than a traditional wash...which I would completely disagree with.

It works for you, that's all that matters. But don't expect a clan of detailers to follow suit. Cause IMO, it's time consuming, and not cost effective. I think a lot of others feel the same way.

I wasn't knocking your work. I know you do good work, and I stated that. But, that doesn't mean you do good work in the most cost effective, or efficient way.

We've had discussions about time frames and such, and this could very well play into what takes you so long, and makes your exhausting 17 hour days. If I were having to deal with 17 hour days...I would certainly look into other methods.

But, if it works, you like it, and it's profitable...then sweet! I wasn't trying to be a dink, we're buddies and speak over the phone. But, as you like to defend your method, I also defend mine. Keep up the good work man! Vehicles look awesome, and that's all that matters. :dblthumb2:

 

[Bates Detailing]

I may have started using this process earlier than you did but I can say without question that you have done a great deal more vehicles than I. The product that I still use today is the grandaddy of them all having been brought on the market in 1988. Detailing "gurus" on various sites all advised that it was not going to work, a lousy product, would ruin the paint, yada -yada - yada. Of course none had ever seen it much less used it. That is when I decided the armchair quarterbacks could all pee off, I was going to try it. It's still the best of the collection I have acquired over time and I still use it today. No names, not sold here.

A very close runner up was Chemical Guys ONE. CG developed a different brand name for it and some other products since which priced it out of sight. That killed it for me.

I took this picture some years back to show where the limit is for these types of products on another forum. That was my car at the time and the finish did not get all mucked up from using a "drywash" I did however use about 20% more than usual along with extra caution. It was just a personal experiment to see how far I could go but hardly practical. With my car as the test bed I knew I could use this particular product on customer cars without worry.

Looks good man - I'll need to PM you for those products.

I'm certain you hit all those areas. But in reality...you are spending WAY more time to do that by not using a pressure washer. Instead you have to go and hit all that stuff by hand, which I'm sure you'd agree takes much longer.

That's all I'm saying. Though it may work, and you've managed to produce a quality job without a pressure washer or traditional wash...it's certainly not the most efficient way to handle it. I think that's where most of the comments and stuff come from.

It seems as though you hate to hear negative feedback on your drywash method...but yet you keep making threads sort of promoting it, or almost justifying it. A lot of times I feel like you think it's better than a traditional wash...which I would completely disagree with.

It works for you, that's all that matters. But don't expect a clan of detailers to follow suit. Cause IMO, it's time consuming, and not cost effective. I think a lot of others feel the same way.

I wasn't knocking your work. I know you do good work, and I stated that. But, that doesn't mean you do good work in the most cost effective, or efficient way.

We've had discussions about time frames and such, and this could very well play into what takes you so long, and makes your exhausting 17 hour days. If I were having to deal with 17 hour days...I would certainly look into other methods.

But, if it works, you like it, and it's profitable...then sweet! I wasn't trying to be a dink, we're buddies and speak over the phone. But, as you like to defend your method, I also defend mine. Keep up the good work man! Vehicles look awesome, and that's all that matters. :dblthumb2:

Yeah man - that was exhaustion talkin last night. 17 hours yesterday was from working on some full interiors and Semis - didn't even involve any drywashing. Im definitely not trying to say that this method is better than traditional washes at all - I am the last person that would say my method is better than others after the heat Ive taken over the years. Starting this thread was mainly cause it was on my mind at the time and I like others to see that there are other ways other than in the box type detailing. We can have a car prepped with this method in 45 minutes to correct paint, not much slower in my opinion than traditional wash. I don't think efficiency is the problem for most here, I believe it is the idea of detailing without use of water or a new method when one is used to their method. It is a completely different way of doing things but I like to share that a high quality detail can still be performed. I enjoy reading everyones work and thoughts here and LOVE AG - just feel at times Im catchin a beat down for sharing or talking about this method..... I can say one thing Kris, and please don't argue this....... I love you man :kiss:

 

[Flannigan]

I think it's funny that BB started this thread knowing how some people feel...stir the pot much?

 

[Bates Detailing]

I think it's funny that BB started this thread knowing how some people feel...stir the pot much?

Well - its been a year since the last firing squad, maybe thought things had changed in a year.... I am officially wrong lol. Maybe a few beers gave me the kahunas to give it another go. I believe this thread has officially gave me stress pimples :/