First shot at fixing the black Vette

Do you have access to the car? I know, it's your car, but I want to make sure it isn't in storage, 2 hours away or something. If you do, it wouldn't hurt to pick up a bottle of the Ultimate Compound and do a quick test spot. You won't get as much cut out of the Ultimate Compound as you would M105, but with soft clear, you may not need the cut of M105. Also, Ultimate Compound can be worked longer than M105, so it may take an extra couple of passes, but you should still get the same results. On the same shelf, you should find Meguiar's Ultimate Polish, which I understand to be close in the level of cut to M205. Now, M205 is amazing stuff, so I can't say I'd expect Ultimate Polish to compare to it, 100%. Either way, it's another $10 product, so if nothing else, you're out $20 and an hour of your time in going to buy it and do a test spot. If that doesn't work, you could order the M105. Personally, I think the Ultimate Compound will accomplish your goal, albeit with another pass or two compared to M105. But, M105 can be a little tough to work with, although, like Dave said, is still working even when you think the product is spent.

EDIT: Yes, use the Ultimate Compound with the same orange cutting pad. Follow that up with a finer polish with a white pad if you have one and you'll have some incredible results.
 
Here's something to take a look at for comparison.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...s-order-smat-products-might-surprise-you.html

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...anted-know-about-meguiar-s-smat-products.html

One thing to note about the aggressive order photo's that Mr. Phillips supplied in the above links is that Meguiar's Ultimate Polish is not listed. I'm not sure why it's not listed and to be honest I'm not sure where Meg's UP would fall in the line-up. I can only assume it would fall to the right of M205, which would make it even less aggressive than M205. Again, that's just a best guess. As Y2KSVT suggested the difference may hardly be negligable between the two products.

Also, note that M95 mentioned in those articles is for use with a rotary. Just thought I'd mention that in case you skip reading the above links. You already have products that will work on a rotary, so you won't need M95.
 
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Great info guys...Thanks. Just had a conversation with Hoytman about the M105 vs Ultimate compound. I am going to hit the same stores I mentioned tonight and see if I can find the Ultimate compound. I have an Advance near me as well, so I will check them out. They could have the M105..but they will probably have the Ultimate compound for sure. I'm coming home with one of them and will give it a shot.

Mark, the car is sitting in my driveway. I just haven't had a chance to work on it since monday afternoon because of Halloween activities with the family. More of that tonight, so it will definitely be tomorrow before I can mess with it.
 
for scratches that need to be sanded like that and you want to do it with a d/a try using ether 3m trizak 2000,3000, or 4000 depending on how deep they are. Marka form sand pads work great also. you can get them at any ppg auto paint supply house.3M at any Oreily's or Dupont place.
 
These guys have given you great advice John. I would read through this thread several times to digest the information.

I've taken the time to send you a pm with a list of products for sanding if you should decide to go that far. I think you're going to be surprised with the results you get after following the advice in this thread. You may not need to do any sanding and that is always a good thing.
 
Local Autozone had the Ultimate compound so I picked that up. I'll give that a shot tonight. If that doesn't appear to be working, I'll drop what I'm doing and head over to Advance in the next town over, and see if they have the 105. If not, I'll order it.

Let's hope the Ultimate compound will do some good :)
 
Did you look in the auto body section at the Advance Auto for the 105? They don't stock it in the detailing supply section. UC should work fine though.
 
tuscarora dave said:
Did you look in the auto body section at the Advance Auto for the 105? They don't stock it in the detailing supply section. UC should work fine though.
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I have not been to Advance yet. In my previous post, I stated that I had found and picked up the Ultimate compound, and that I am going to try it this afternoon.

If the Ultimate compound doesn't work, I'll drop what I'm doing and head over to Advance tonight (it's about 20 minutes away in the next town) and see if they have the 105. In the event they don't, I guess I will have to order it.
 
Ok, time for an update. Yesterday, as promised, I tried the Ultimate compound. It worked out alot better than the TSR, but it still was proving to be a little tame for the small scratches.

Here are some shots of the work. I used a quarter in one of them after reading the thread Mike has about how to take pictures. That was good advice...It seemed to help alot in helping the camera focus.

This is the size of area for the test spot that I initially started with:

2012-11-01_16-37-33_142.jpg


After some careful consideration, and given the number of defects I'm dealing with, I decided to split that in two and create a more managable size. See here:

2012-11-01_16-40-28_26.jpg


I think I learned a lesson on this. That is: the reason Mike calls for a test area / working area to be no bigger than 20x20 is because of the fact that you will simply wear yourself out trying to maintain the uniformity, arm speed, technique, and pressure while working an area larger than that. In addition, the working time of your chemical will probably diminish, especially with more aggressive compounds. I'm just shooting from the hip here, but I think that is a big part of it.

After one step of the Ultimate compound, the scratches that are being stubborn (Let's just call them what they are from here on out - RIDS) still remianed, but I noticed feathering on some of them. This tells me that with enough passes, these RIDS will come out. Again, my fingernail will not catch on these. Matter of fact, they are so shallow it's difficult to even feel them. I cant sit and say that I actually have felt one all along. That is a good sign :)

Here are some of the RIDS I managed to get pics of-

2012-11-01_16-51-42_19.jpg


2012-11-01_16-53-30_474.jpg


Now for the results-

In this picture, to the left is the area closest to me (the smaller area I taped off above that has my whole hand in the pic) that has been worked with Ultimate compound. I made five section passes with it. To the right is the area done with wolfgang TSR. It is the other half of the intial bigger area I had taped off.

2012-11-01_18-19-48_391.jpg


Now, at this point I stopped and decided that 105 would probably definitely be quicker. I ran to the Advance store near me and checked..no dice. I even went to the other one in that town (there are two of them), and they didn't have it either. As a last resort, I stopped by NAPA..they didn't have it. What I did find at Advance that I think will benefit this job greatly is a 3M 3000 grit Trizact pad. I can work these RIDS with this pad, and then the Ultimate compound will easily get the 3000 grit scratches out. It took care fo the 2000 grit paper scratches that I had done the other day, so the 3000 scratches will be much easier, and less abrasive on the paint.

If you look up to one of the pictures above with the RIDS, like say for instance the one with the quarter, I think you will see the remaining cobweb type swirls. I'm sure the Wolfgang TSR and polish (Wolfgang twins) will easily take care fo these. So, the plan for this afternoon is going to be like this:

For each area of the car,

1. Make five or six section passes of Ultimate compound and orange pad. This will expose the RIDS better. Work the RIDS with the 3000 grit pad, and then hit it again with about five or six more passes of Ultimate compound and orange pad.

2. Five or six passes with wolfgang TSR and orange pad (these are all Lake country flat pads)

3. Three or four passes with the Wolfgang Polish 3.0 and a white pad, PCXP speed down to 4 or so.

If I can get the roof done, and the above process works, I'll know what I need to do on the rest of the car. I may go ahead and order some 105, and just be using the Ultimate compound until then. After all, it works; it just may take a tad longer. It definitely works better than the TSR for what I'm dealing with though.
 
I got some more work done last night. Running out of daylight sucks. I wish I had a lighted garage of some sort; This type of work is just about impossible to do in the dark.

Again, the plan was to iron out the system in the test spot, and then move on and try to do the entire roof before dark. I got the test step done and it looked great, so I moved on to the whole roof. I didn't get good enough pictures of the test step, so I will post the other pictures I took when I started on the entire roof.

Here is a picture of the entire roof. In this picture, I have completed the testing on the part of the roof closest to me, wet sanded the light RIDS out with the 3000 grit trizact pad, and buffed again with about 5 section passes of Ultimate compound. The test section is no longer marked with tape, because at this point I had removed it and done the rest of the roof with about five section passes of Ultimate compound. I did do them in small sections, but I had chosen to do each compounding step entirely on each panel before moving to the next. I have wiped the entire panel here with IPA so I could see the true results.

2012-11-02_16-57-12_699.jpg


After this, I took a good long hard look at each section of the roof, even the one I had already done (which was the test spot). I have basically divided it up into thirds, so there are three different sections. I found a few more small RIDS, so I sanded the small RIDS again with my trizact pad and moved across the whole roof.

Here is sanding after what I could reach from the driver's side.

2012-11-02_17-13-22_51.jpg


And here is it finished after I had done the remaining roof area from the other side. I used a very bright light to pick the RIDS out, and simply wet sanded them until they were all gone.

2012-11-02_17-50-27_987.jpg


The trizact pads are great. Much better than sandpaper ever was. The extra cusion in the pad makes them great for little touch up stuff like this. Again, I am simply amazed at how soft my clear is. It just doesn't seem normal for it to be as soft as it is. The RIDS were almost all very, very shallow. A couple of passes with the pad took care of most very quick. There were only a few that I had to hit several times before they disappeared.

After this sanding step was completed, I again buffed each of the thirds of the roof with about five section passes of Ultimate compund again, to clean up the rest of the paint and get the sanding hazing out. After this, the plan was to move on to a couple of section passes of TSR and then to a white pad with the Wolfgan polish, but it was just about dark. I took the little but of daylight I had left to do some inspection with my light. There was not enough daylight to do any good, so I was using my hand light. For those wondering, the light I am using is an LED helmet light that I built for riding mountian bikes at night, and it mounts on my helmet. It puts out about as much light as a car headlight, so it is more than enough to see the defects in the paint.

Looking at the roof, the Ultimate compund got about about 85% of everything out after this step, but I am still seeing a little bit of my scratches, and also just general swirling in the paint. It isn't much, but there is some there. It looks like very light cobweb swirls. In addition to that, I can still see holograms when I pull the light up and away from the surface. If I hold the light at about 2 feet from the surface and move back and forth, I can see them well. I am not sure if they were from the original hologram marks the car had or if they are something I am inducing. I was under the impression that a D/A was very unlikely to leave swirls, so I can't tell. I know there is a possibilty that the swirls induced by the hack detailers could be lower in the paint than what I am effectively working with my D/A, orange pad, and Ultimate compound.

I'm pretty confused at this point, but I will know more when I get home today. In the overhead sun, I should be able to see the whole story. One thing is apparent though, and that is even though the Ultimate compound is cutting, I obviously need something more aggressive than Ultimate compound. I think the consensus is that I can probably get all of the defects out with Ultimate compound, but I am going to have to do three times the work than what I would do if I were using M105. I'm going to do some calling around today, and try my best to locate a bottle of this stuff. If I can find it in the state, I'll likey drive to get it today or tomorrow.

I guess the number one question I have is this: Is it common to still see swirling after using Ultimate compound, and orange flat pad, and a D/A? At this point, I'm not sure if the defects are below the surface I am effectively touching, but it just seems to me that the Ultimate compound should be cleaning them up if they are near the surface. Since it is a MATS product, I'm thinking I should be seeing a near perfect finish when completed - one that will only be brought to a higher gloss once hit with the TSR and polish steps. After my first experience with the TSR, I don't think it will remove this swirling I'm seeing now if the Ultimate compound didn't get it out. .......In a nutshell, I'm beginning to wonder If I have leveled the surface enough tto get down to the defects that were originally there, which were the terrible holograms.
 
One thing for sure..nobdoy seems to have this M105. Just got off the ohone with a pep boys about 30 miles away, and a carquest who has am auto paint side to the store. Neither one had it either.

:(
 
I'm a bit confused here on the fact that you are saying the clear is so soft yet it is taking so much work to remove these defects. Exactly what are you experiencing that suggests to you that the clear is so soft?

My logic and experience, when I read your very well written and thorough replies, suggests to me that you are actually dealing with very hard clear. Perhaps you are experiencing the fact that your paint scratches or mars very easily, which doesn't necessarily mean that it's soft clear. Super hard clear is really labor intensive to compound/polish defect free but once polished (especially black) scratches or mars very easily. Seems illogical doesn't it? It may seem illogical but it's just how it is. I don't think you are really dealing with soft clear, I think you just think it's soft because it marks up so easily after it's polished. Correct me if I'm wrong as I am often times wrong in my thinking.

Paint corrections on black cars can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. Eventually you become defeated by black paint and become willing to live with a certain level of defects. Sometimes choosing a nice glaze or a wax with a light amount of fillers can save your sanity and your clear coat when dealing with a black car.
 
tuscarora dave said:
I'm a bit confused here on the fact that you are saying the clear is so soft yet it is taking so much work to remove these defects. Exactly what are you experiencing that suggests to you that the clear is so soft?

My logic and experience, when I read your very well written and thorough replies, suggests to me that you are actually dealing with very hard clear. Perhaps you are experiencing the fact that your paint scratches or mars very easily, which doesn't necessarily mean that it's soft clear. Super hard clear is really labor intensive to compound/polish defect free but once polished (especially black) scratches or mars very easily. Seems illogical doesn't it? It may seem illogical but it's just how it is. I don't think you are really dealing with soft clear, I think you just think it's soft because it marks up so easily after it's polished. Correct me if I'm wrong as I am often times wrong in my thinking.

Paint corrections on black cars can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. Eventually you become defeated by black paint and become willing to live with a certain level of defects. Sometimes choosing a nice glaze or a wax with a light amount of fillers can save your sanity and your clear coat when dealing with a black car.
Click to expand...

i tend to agree here with Dave. definately sounds like you cant get the scratches out, which i would equate with some hard clear...

what about a couple of passes with menz PG1000? its like rocks in a bottle...im actually surprised it hasnt been suggested here yet...
 
The paint may actually be exactly as you all describe. I am not sure. it just seems difficult to polish, it seems like I need a more aggressive compound. The Ultimate is working, but it just seems like it takes forty forevers..(What I know now is it takes ten section passes with an orange pad after wet sanding the small RIDS).

I got the system ironed out and got the roof and halo done. It took ten hours to do, but it looks great. I'm sure part of the ridiculous time frame for that little of an area has alot to do with my learning curve though.

Once I got the roof done and I knew I was ok, I did a tape line area on the bottom of the halo just for the purpose of showing you guys in the steps.

So here we go. These are the steps. After each one I wiped with IPA to be sure I was seeing paint and not any sort of fillers.

Here is the tape off

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And then, the first five section passes with Ultimate and orange pad done, and I have lightly sanded the scratches.

2012-11-03_12-13-25_410.jpg


After this I have to hit it again with Ultimate and orange pad, for about ten section passes. What I usually do is stop at five section passes, still see scratches from sanding, and go another five section passes. At that point, they have cleared up for the most part and it looks like this

2012-11-03_12-20-09_33.jpg


Then, I hit it with the TSR and orange pad and it looks like this

2012-11-03_12-28-16_859.jpg


After that I switch to a white pad and do the 3.0 finishing glaze for about four section passes. Looks like this afterwards

2012-11-03_12-31-57_245.jpg


Then I pull the tape so you can see the line.

2012-11-03_12-46-27_391.jpg


2012-11-03_12-46-35_688.jpg


So that is pretty drastic if you ask me. After this, I did the rest of the halo, and then sealed the roof and halo with Klasse paint sealant. This is a pic after that. I know it isn't bright sun, but trust me, there are no swirls. I wiped it with IPA and looked at it thoroughly, because I don't want to have to go backwards after so much time going forward, lol. The only defects left are very small little tick marks, and for some reason, just wiping with any pressure seems to induce them.

Of course the car still has the orange peel, it is not flat like you would think from wet sanding. Like I have stated before, he did not cut the paint all the way down flat. from four or five feet away, you can't even see the orange peel. It looks as good as I have expected all along. Here is a finished pic of the roof and halo after paint sealant

2012-11-03_17-54-38_925.jpg


I used a blue pad to apply the paint sealant. I'm not sure if the stuff was just applied too thick or what, but it was a nightmare to buff clean with a towel. I waited about ten minutes before buffing it off, and it was thoroughly hazed over at that point.

I think I have something here. It's just going to be a very slow process. That is for certain. lol
 
wow looks great, but man thats alot of time/effort/work. not saying its not worth it, but maybe you should be looking to a different product even though you do have some issues with the thickness of the clear.

maybe see if a local auto shop has a thickness guage and actually measure the clear so you know what you have left...

also here is something that might help you with the tick marks you speak of...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...3239-tick-marks-pinholes-solvent-popping.html
 
If I'm not mistaken, I think he already had the thickness tested by Brian Burnworth and was given the green light to proceed. Of course with so many threads on here...that could have been another black Corvette.

I'm getting hungry for spaghetti.
 
Thanks for the comments on my work and my posts. I try to be as thorough as possible, that way the people reading this can help me. I'm still learning, and I don't know the exact things to do at times.

That's a good thread on that C5 vert. Luckily, maybe my paint isn't as hard as the factory Vette clear is. I don't really have anything to compare it to though, but I do know that it feels soft like just cured paint - which I have cut and buffed before.

I too am worried about those front and rear bumper covers. I'm glad I saw your concerns and steps around dealing with the heat on those.

I did have a 3" hydrotech pad come apart on me today shortly after starting with it, which sucks because I only ordered two of them. I will be calling AG about that because something was obviously wrong with it. I had used the other one for about an hour and it was fine.

One thing that has become apparent is that I will not have enough pads for this job. This is what I ordered:

All lake country-

Two 5.5 orange flat pads
Two 5.5 white flat pads
Two 5.5 blue flat pads
Two 3" blue hydrotech pads
Two 3" orange hydrotech pads.

My two orange 5.5 flat pads will not likely last much longer, so I guess I will have to order more. I don't think I can do the rest of this car with what I have..not being in the shape it is in. M105 would likely save pad life because of fewer section passes needed too. If I order, I'll probably pick that up as well, since there isn't a bottle of that stuff anywhere near me.
 
Have you given any thought to using microfiber cutting disks instead of foam pads? Is there a Harbor freight tools location near you anywhere? Our local HF is now carrying some decent 6" foam buffing pads that look similar to the flat LC or Buff&Shine pads. They are where the abrasives are stocked in the store.
 
tuscarora dave said:
If I'm not mistaken, I think he already had the thickness tested by Brian Burnworth and was given the green light to proceed. Of course with so many threads on here...that could have been another black Corvette.

I'm getting hungry for spaghetti.
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ah must a missed it...i love my pasta!
 
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