Flex 3401 or rupes bigfoot.

This weekend I used the rupes duetto and rupes mini on my somewhat new black lexus gs 350. A few comments. The duetto without the wash mod (since I don't believe you should modify something this expensive) is terrible on anything not flat. I tried very hard to keep it flat on vertical and curved panels and worked my technique in every way possible but this lexus has curves on every panel. As a result I had to switch to the mini - which was much easier to keep flat. Due to this issue I had to do 70 percent of the car with the mini. It is just too inefficient even for a hobbyist with time.

The duetto worked great on middle part of the hood, the roof and top of trunk. All in all I am probably going to scrap the duetto (as I scrapped the 15 a month ago) and just go with a flex. I think all these tools depend on the car somewhat. If you have a flat panel car maybe the rupes or any non-forced da would work but I tell you I am completely exhausted and having an expensive machine not rotate on vertical or curved panels at all was frustrating and disappointing.

The only concern I have before ordering the flex is can it burn through the clear coat. I have read conflicting reports as you can do it on edges (of which there are a few on my lexus) and if this is the case I prob should do the washer mod and keep the duetto or just scrap the whole detailing thing and let a professional do the correction and I can do washing drying waxing.

Any comments appreciated.
 
Something ain't right - and I don't think it's the machine. I have a 15 and can polish pretty much any area that the pad fits on my BMW M Roadster with it. This car has small panels, and a lot of odd body lines.

I think you just may need more time behind the machine. I did the washer mod - only later to remove it after talking to the Rupes' USA rep about it. I didn't really notice a difference. But, by that time I had more experience with the machine.

When something isn't working for me, I try to figure out if "it's me" or the products I'm using. So, I do some research to see if it's working out for others and try to see how they made it work. A lot of guys have successfully used the 15/Duetto on a variety of cars. I'm not sure why you replaced the 15 with the Duetto - as there isn't a huge difference between the operation of the machines.

Yes, I agree the machine has the potential to stall and it could use more power. However, the 3401 isn't perfect either. There have been some people who have had difficulties with the 3401 finishing down on certain softer paints. This could be do to the standard sized 8mm rotation and the direct drive. There have also been some issues with some machines getting hot and some problems with the interchangeable backing plates. The 3401 may also not be the best machine for microfiber pads - if you use them. Also, since it's direct drive, you are loosing the safety factor of the free spinning spindle mechanism.

None of these machines are perfect - but they all are pretty good. I think you should try to master the machine instead of just replacing it with something else - which could possibly have another potential issue.

Really the easiest machine to use of all of them is the Griot's 6" IMHO. It has the safety/confidence of a free spinning spindle mechanism, the ability to use almost any size pad, and the power to never stop spinning on complex panels.
 
Kdancy said:
Tato, Do you have an update for the Rupes vs Flex?
Click to expand...

I love this thread and keep coming back often to see new comments. It helped me deciding to get the Flex first, but also left the benefit of doubt which allowed me to get the Rupes 21 as well, later.

Nowadays I'm hanging out with both, I cannot list a work I did recently (since Rupes arrived) that I haven't used Rupes for at least one panel, or one full step.

Having both machines equipped and ready to run gave me the advantage as I was expecting.

Some examples (from my threads at AGO):

Scenario 1: Cut With Rupes + MF, Polish With Flex + Foam, both using FG400 (finish step (3rd-step was done using SF4000).


Scenario 2: Cut with Flex + Orange Hybrid Pad + FG400, Finish with Rupes + Black Hybrid Pad + SF4000.
RANG13-28a.png


Scenario 3: Smaller, trick, complex areas with 3401 and 5" white Hybrid Pad. Larger areas, mainly flat, Rupes. Both using SF4000
Track14_17.png



More considerations:

Washer MOD: Although I appreciate Rupes Engineering, I'm sorry to say they are terribly wrong not supporting the washer mod (In My Opinion, of course).

The machine works very well without the mod, and keep the pad spinning even on complex panels is a matter of perfecting the technique.

However, the simply act of inserting a washer (washer mod) turns the tool into an even more exciting and functional machine. I tried my best to use the tool without the washer for many weeks, and even when my washer arrived I've hesitated installing it.

After using the Rupes with Washer Mod ONCE, the mod never left the machine. Worth doing it, but I recommend using the machine for a while 'in stock' to get the real feel for it before 'unleashing' the Big Claw.

Polishing edges

The Rupes tool (again, in My opinion) has a much more aggressive behavior than the 3401. The pad spinning at speed 6 on the Rupes, summed with 21mm throw will eat your edges much faster than the Flex.

I can't say if I have this feeling because of having used the Flex much more air-time than the Rupes. I feel much more secure and comfortable not messing critic areas with the Flex than with the Rupes.

Complex designs and polishing evenness

Depending on complexity of panel design, it may be very difficult (if not ~impossible) to get an even cut using the Rupes 21 polisher throughout the whole panel.

With the Flex, you can guarantee even results in virtually any panel design.

I'm not saying you cannot do it with the Rupes, but it's better to have at least a big Rupes and a Smaller one, like the mini, to be able to engage the pad to whole surface.

Bottom line

If I had to choose only one to have, it would be the 3401. The Rupes is as powerful (if not more powerful than 3401), it spins the pad as fast (if not faster than 3401), it'll hardly bog down, and if it bogs down you can attribute it to your technique, not to machine fault.

Rupes offers smooth, almost effortless polishing, while the Flex requires a bit more 'workout' to get the job done.

However, the 3401 is an 'AIO' machine capable of handling virtually any job by it's own, while Rupes still relies on many kinds and sizes of machines, one for each panel shape.

By the way, you can do tremendous job polishing A pillars and even rearview mirrors using the Rupes 21, but if you can get a more proper tool for smaller, concave, around handles, and other trick areas, it's always good to pair the 21 with some other smaller plate machine. In my case, it's the 3401 and 4" backing plate. For others, it maybe the Rupes Mini.

That said, I cannot say much about Rupes VS Flex, being my experience a very positive combination of Rupes + Flex.

Win/Win.

Luckily I don't have to choose between one or another, having both, if you're doing this for a living like I'm doing (trying to, lol!) is a must.

Both are incredible tools and are helping me to get the job done.

Hope that helps a bit,

Kind Regards.
 
Tato said:
Scenario 2: Cut with Flex + Orange Hybrid Pad + FG400, Finish with Rupes + Black Hybrid Pad + SF4000.
RANG13-28a.png
Click to expand...

Hey Tato,

May I ask why you would prefer to use Rupes + Black Hybrid Pad for finishing over Rupes + Rupes white foam pad or Rupes yellow foam pad?

I'm just curious to know :)
 
swanicyouth said:
The "power" facts are true. I agree there. However, "power" doesn't equal "results". The large throw of the BF means you can do more "work" in less passes. Of course, if the pad ain't spinning - you ain't doing ANY work.

However, that's rarely the case with the BF. Only on a rather complex area. Almost ALL the Rupes pads/polishes finish down LSP perfect with their machine - including their most aggressive foam / compound.

Not to mention the no brainer of simply using the right Rupes pad with their correct polish. So, IMHO the Rupes has the ability to cut and finish a bit easier - maybe more reliably due to the pre-determined system approach.

There has been more than one person who has posted they have been left with holograms when finishing with the 3401 on soft paint here. I'm guessing this is due to forced rotation of the machine and soft paint. The machine seems to be more sensitive to this. I can't remember ANY Rupes threads like this.

IMHO... The 3401 may be better for severely jacked up paint, because the forced rotation can muscle through stuff that requires wool or MF pads to cut. But, it's also my opinion the Rupes is better for normal paint or regular polishing.
Click to expand...

Now the the fact that I'm not using Rupes pads, compounds or polishes may be parts of it. I'll have to get some to see if I'm getting better results. But I've def had many occasions where my Rupes would bog where the Flex blew right through it. Obviously with Forced rotation the Flex won't bog. I've never gotten holograms with my Flex and I used it on at least 3 dozen details in the lest year. all with various types of paint. I've had the Rupes for 5 months now and it bogs on just about every detail. I'll check out their stuff and see if makes a difference but I know I'm not the only one with this problem. Is it better/more powerful than a PC? most definitely. But so is the GG and I can get the both GG machines for cheaper than one Rupes 15.
 
Thx Tato for the feedback. I have to say that the rupes is great on certain areas but the stalling on vertical and curved panels was also discussed in a video by Gary Dean so I don't think technique has much to do with it. I think it is the DA mechanics and while some may be better than others if a pro like Gary Dean demonstrates that it stalls on a curved panels it just means me to me a flex like tool would be better - especially if I want to be efficient and have an AIO machine, which I do.

I am going to try the washer mod and see if I have any luck - if I could get the rupes to work on the doors I would be set as I all want is to do is 60-70 percent of the car with a larger machine to reduce the polishing time. The mini is incredible but takes too long.
 
Zelfiris said:
Hey Tato,

May I ask why you would prefer to use Rupes + Black Hybrid Pad for finishing over Rupes + Rupes white foam pad or Rupes yellow foam pad?

I'm just curious to know :)
Click to expand...

Hi, thanks for feedback. In fact, I may use any pad with the Rupes, being them Rupes pads or not. The Hybrid Cutting pads (orange and blue) will not work very well with the Rupes, but the softer Hybrids (White and Black) works like a charm.

I saw recently LC releasing a pad line for the Rupes, haven't tested them yet, but LC already had a foam pad line that works awesome on the Rupes, and it's not new: LC CCS pads in 6.5 inch.

I can risk saying the larger CCS pads were the (second) better non-rupes pads I've tested with this machine, being the first better non-rupes pads the Meguiar's Microfiber pads.

The LC flat pads may also work good, but my preference is listed above. Everyone should have his/her own.

Kind Regards.
 
mbpress01 said:
Thx Tato for the feedback. I have to say that the rupes is great on certain areas but the stalling on vertical and curved panels was also discussed in a video by Gary Dean so I don't think technique has much to do with it. I think it is the DA mechanics and while some may be better than others if a pro like Gary Dean demonstrates that it stalls on a curved panels it just means me to me a flex like tool would be better - especially if I want to be efficient and have an AIO machine, which I do.

I am going to try the washer mod and see if I have any luck - if I could get the rupes to work on the doors I would be set as I all want is to do is 60-70 percent of the car with a larger machine to reduce the polishing time. The mini is incredible but takes too long.
Click to expand...


Thanks a lot for feedback. I know what you mean saying the mini takes too long, that's why I prefer using the Flex and 4" plate paired with 4"-5" pads and it's just as fast (if not faster) than the Flex with other pads. That said, I couldn't be convinced enough to pull the trigger and get the mini.

If you have a link for Garry's video stalling the Rupes, I'd like to take a look.

Again, thanks for feedback,

Kind Regards.
 
Thanks Tato for the comments. See this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0ZmjVJckbE&list=UU2cb55SCsEhTNXXZcK_dM_A#t=910

Around 14:30 mark. Also want to clarify that I love the Duetto and the whole rupes system - have spent probably close to 2k on it. But I just didn't realize that on vertical/curved panels the machine just doesn't spin well and I thought it was my technique but after watching this video he shows exactly what I was experiencing.

Regardless, I will try the washer mod and see if that helps and then if the same result onto the Flex.
 
The washer mod helps to some degree but on very complicated curved surfaces the rupes still stalls out many times.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
swanicyouth said:
Something ain't right - and I don't think it's the machine. I have a 15 and can polish pretty much any area that the pad fits on my BMW M Roadster with it. This car has small panels, and a lot of odd body lines.

I think you just may need more time behind the machine. I did the washer mod - only later to remove it after talking to the Rupes' USA rep about it. I didn't really notice a difference. But, by that time I had more experience with the machine.

When something isn't working for me, I try to figure out if "it's me" or the products I'm using. So, I do some research to see if it's working out for others and try to see how they made it work. A lot of guys have successfully used the 15/Duetto on a variety of cars. I'm not sure why you replaced the 15 with the Duetto - as there isn't a huge difference between the operation of the machines.

Yes, I agree the machine has the potential to stall and it could use more power. However, the 3401 isn't perfect either. There have been some people who have had difficulties with the 3401 finishing down on certain softer paints. This could be do to the standard sized 8mm rotation and the direct drive. There have also been some issues with some machines getting hot and some problems with the interchangeable backing plates. The 3401 may also not be the best machine for microfiber pads - if you use them. Also, since it's direct drive, you are loosing the safety factor of the free spinning spindle mechanism.

None of these machines are perfect - but they all are pretty good. I think you should try to master the machine instead of just replacing it with something else - which could possibly have another potential issue.

Really the easiest machine to use of all of them is the Griot's 6" IMHO. It has the safety/confidence of a free spinning spindle mechanism, the ability to use almost any size pad, and the power to never stop spinning on complex panels.
Click to expand...

Did you see the thread on the new LC pads for large throw machines (Rupes) I don't know of any other 21mm throw machines? It had a vid showing how this pad would not stop spinning on curves. Wonder why AG deleted this thread as it was a LC pad which AG carries. No one has it as yet. Very similar to the Hydro Tech Pads as they only come in 3 colors.
 
Saw the video, can't comment on anyone's technique...

The Rupes has an 'anti-spin' mechanism, which serves for something not very well stablished if we want to talk about polishing performance.

Heard someone saying it's a 'security' feature, to avoid pad spinning when polisher is not in contact with surface. This may help saving pads from flying away because of the larger throw, if someone by accident keep the polisher off the surface with the trigger pressed.

However, teaching a friend how to polish (he used my rupes on his car), just after letting him alone for 1-2 minutes, he took the polisher off the surface without turning it off. The pad (LC Flat white pad) simply 'exploded' ahhah, nothing bad happened, but this kills the purpose of the 'anti-spin' mechanism, IMO.

That said, it's time to people developing polishers think about 'PRO-Spin' mechanisms, not the opposite, again, my opinion.

Back to the anti-spin mechanism, on the other hand, it was one of the features that most impressed me. When the polisher 'SENSES' the right contact, it frees the backing plate, and SPIN.

You got to have that 'feeling', and when you start feeling it, you've just understood how to use a Rupes Polisher.

That's why Rupes Engineers says against the washer mod, or better saying, at least, admit it to be unnecessary.

The washer mod is a 'PRO-Spinning' modification which in my experience and use, gives a little edge if you want the most performance from your tool.

By the way, if you don't put the pad on the surface properly, you'll be not giving the proper feedback to your tool, even using the washer.

That said, I heavily recommend using the Rupes without the washer mod, 'mastering it' and understanding it's limitations, then insert the washer and never look back.

On vertical panels, even the 21 (which is somewhat bulkier than the Duetto) can be hold one-handed, but I never recommend that.

Using both hands (especially on vertical / inclined) panels is trivial to properly place the tool and gives it the feedback needed to spin the pad.

No, I'm not saying my Rupes never stalls, it's rare, more common maybe the slowing of rotation (but still plenty) on complicated parts.

When I have a stall, a bit of contortion / better positioning myself, even hanging the body over to position the polisher correctly may solve it.

Rupes also doesn't need a lot of pressure, if any in some cases. On trick areas, a bit more pressure may help the tool sensing proper positioning.

**On vertical panels, a bit of pressure is desirable because on horizontal parts (hood, roof, etc) you have the tool's weight acting and on verticals you have to (at least) reproduce this weight, adding a bit of pressure.

If you tilt forward or backward (not placing the pad flat and the tool ~parallel to surface) the Rupes may slow down or stall more often.

Tilting the pad, using ~edge or half the pad, although not recommended, maybe a way of dealing with difficult areas. Never do things you don't know exactly what you'll be doing, please.

When it won't fit, I may get the Flex.

Hope that helps,

Kind Regards.
 
Appreciate the comments. I have spent approx 20-30 hrs with a 15 and the duetto and did exactly what you said above - tilt the pad so that at least 1/2 the pad makes contact and then I got it to spin but certainly not great and the correction was minor. I really think on flat panels this machine is a dream. The hood, trunk and roof worked flawlessly and the correction was strong and efficient. I don't think the debate will ever be settled but for me now I have to go with efficiency and an AIO machine works best. I will be ordering the flex - just need to figure what pads and product combo works best.

I can see how great a flex and rupes mini combo would be. You use the flex on doors, roof trunk hood unplug and move to the mini for the tight areas. I think the whole process could be improved by 10 hrs if this combo works. The 6.5 plate for the larger flat panels would be perfect and would really be efficient. Thx again for the all the comments.
 
Just to clarify- when I say "bogs" on every detail I don't mean on every panel all over the vehicle. Just in certain places. Obviously I wouldn't be in business if it didn't work at all. It's just not what I expected after hearing how amazing Rupes machines were. that's all. I'll try some different techniques and see if that's the issue.

Perhaps the washer mod would help me too? I dunno.
 
Yeah the washer mod helps a good amount.

Also, I've been thinking, is it such a bad thing if the machine stops spinning? Meaning, isn't that an alert to let you know that your technique needs to be adjusted?

What if the machine kept spinning in a tight area and you were at a incorrect angle/location on the car? Probably wouldn't be happy if you kept working that area because the machine kept spinning.

That's why I designed So many different size polisher. To always have the pad spinning and just switching from machine to machine, 2,3,4,5,6,7 . And always trying to keep the pad to paint as flat as possible and spinning...., plus when it stops spinning its in indicator to me that something needs adjusting. Just my thoughts.
 
hernandez.art13 said:
Yeah the washer mod helps a good amount.

Also, I've been thinking, is it such a bad thing if the machine stops spinning? Meaning, isn't that an alert to let you know that your technique needs to be adjusted?

What if the machine kept spinning in a tight area and you were at a incorrect angle/location on the car? Probably wouldn't be happy if you kept working that area because the machine kept spinning.

That's why I designed So many different size polisher. To always have the pad spinning and just switching from machine to machine, 2,3,4,5,6,7 . And always trying to keep the pad to paint as flat as possible and spinning...., plus when it stops spinning its in indicator to me that something needs adjusting. Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying- I wish my assistant was still here so I could show a vid of what I'm talking about. There's been times where I am putting extremely light pressure on the machine on 6 while on an odd shaped panel and as soon as I put just a little more pressure it bogs. Even my PC didn't do that! My take is it just doesn't like odd shaped panels. I'll have to get another backing plate so I can fit a smaller pad but the last time this happened was when I was buffing the brake duct on a F430. Granted it's oval shaped and pretty tight but the pad fit flat with very little pressure. No spin whatsoever. Am I expecting too much?

Thanks for the input btw:xyxthumbs:
 
Tato said:
With the Flex, you can guarantee even results in virtually any panel design.

If I had to choose only one to have, it would be the 3401.

However, the 3401 is an 'AIO' machine capable of handling virtually any job by it's own.
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
Rsurfer said:
Did you see the thread on the new LC pads for large throw machines (Rupes) I don't know of any other 21mm throw machines? It had a vid showing how this pad would not stop spinning on curves.

Wonder why AG deleted this thread as it was a LC pad which AG carries.

No one has it as yet. Very similar to the Hydro Tech Pads as they only come in 3 colors.
Click to expand...

You mean this thread?

Up Close & Personal: Lake Country HD Orbital Pads for Rupes Polishers

...or this one?

Lake Country HD Orbital Pads

We don't "delete" threads. If a thread contains content that is against forum rules, we simply move it out of public view.

:dblthumb2:
 
Mach1USMC said:
I get what you're saying- I wish my assistant was still here so I could show a vid of what I'm talking about. There's been times where I am putting extremely light pressure on the machine on 6 while on an odd shaped panel and as soon as I put just a little more pressure it bogs. Even my PC didn't do that! My take is it just doesn't like odd shaped panels. I'll have to get another backing plate so I can fit a smaller pad but the last time this happened was when I was buffing the brake duct on a F430. Granted it's oval shaped and pretty tight but the pad fit flat with very little pressure. No spin whatsoever. Am I expecting too much?

Thanks for the input btw:xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...

I really like this video and my Rupes behaves pretty similarly to this Rupes. (minus the pads)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwE0dkYwTOA]Lake Country HD Orbital Pads - YouTube[/video]

Do you have a picture of the area you say you were putting very light pressure and it then bogged down?

Also, I've found that a Rupes 21 with the original 6" bp and washer is plenty. If I need something smaller, I just switch machine. I've grown not to like the Rupes 21 with a 5" bp.
 
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