WRAPT C5Z06
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Tried it and didn't like it. 3401 should be strictly gear driven. Interesting concept, though.
Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.
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Cruzscarwash
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maybe im missing something but why does it matter which direction it spins? I have a 3401 and many other polishers and I never felt something was wrong in the rotation. it still did the job at hand.
WRAPT C5Z06
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It has never been said because it spins counterclockwise that it won't get the job done.
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Cruzscarwash
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True but you always see people say "it spins the wrong way" idk what makes it wrong or why it even matters at all?
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kkritsilas
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This can be simplified.
Get a 3401 backing plate. On the back of the plate, you will see that there is a set of gear teeth. Grind them off completely, all the way around. Now when you put this plate on the 3401, it is an 8mm 900W random orbital/free rotation polisher. Switch to a standard 3401 plate (i.e. with the gear teeth on the back of the plate still there) and it is a forced rotation polisher. It is not as convenient as flipping a switch or lever over, but still nowhere near as bad as removing the ring gear every time that you want to switch modes. What you are doing when you do it as per the video, or with the plate that has the ground off teeth, is preventing the backing plate from engaging the ring gear. The polisher is otherwise the same; same bolt/washer, same Flex backing plate (albeit modified).
This can be done with a Shurhold plate, as well, as it has the center hole, and I can verify that it can be used this way.
I don't use my 3401 this way, as I see no reason for it.
BTW, for those who care, the rotation in free rotation mode is clockwise (I don't).
VISITOR
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- May 10, 2007
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i don't either but another option if someone wants to toy around with the idea. in the 2+ years this polisher (makita) has been in development, i don't see how they didn't notice the lack of rotation in the free spin mode (evident in their video) and try to improve upon it (if possible). dunno, maybe they felt it wasn't a issue/problem...
belmontsupply
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- May 17, 2015
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Nice specs! I have always wondered whether my Festool RO sanders were any good for auto detailing.
Festool Rotex RO 150 (Rotary mode)
320 - 660 RPM
3,300 - 6,800 OPM
5.07 lbs (2.3 kg)
5mm Orbit
720 watts
135 - 150mm Pad diameter
Now I'd like to find out how well the Rupes UHS system works with my new "Mille"!
Festool Rotex RO 150 (Rotary mode)
320 - 660 RPM
3,300 - 6,800 OPM
5.07 lbs (2.3 kg)
5mm Orbit
720 watts
135 - 150mm Pad diameter
Now I'd like to find out how well the Rupes UHS system works with my new "Mille"!
Last edited:
kkritsilas
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I am thinking that it may be related to having only a 5.5mm orbit (sort of an over centering) vs. the 8mm of "standard" (i.e. PC7424) type polishers. I don't think anybody has ever reported that the the standard polishers were reversing their rotation like the PO5000C is doing, but I might not be correct in that. I haven't noticed it with my PC.
ScottH
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Nice specs! I have always wondered whether my Festool RO sanders were any good for auto detailing.
Festool Rotex RO 150 (Rotary mode)
320 - 660 RPM
3,300 - 6,800 OPM
5.07 lbs (2.3 kg)
5mm Orbit
720 watts
135 - 150mm Pad diameter
Now I'd like to find out how well the Rupes UHS system works with my new "Mille"!
5000 is counterclockwise...
ScottH
Mike: Sure there's some measure of truth to that but it's still not that big of a deal at least in my opinion and I teach classes on how to use the rotary buffer as well as all the other polishers popular in the detailing world.
Now days fewer people use rotary buffers so it's really not a huge factor."
RSW: I've spent a lot of time in shops, both detailing and paint shops and when I show the guys who are familiar with rotary polishers the BO6040 a fair percentage of them have a hard time with it. They aren't as adaptive as you or me. Imagine being able to walk into a shop with three machines - a random orbital - a dual action forced rotation that spins the same direction as a rotary - and a rotary and being able to tell the shop owner. Here's the deal. You can hand someone with no experience at all this random orbital and the can put on wax or do minor paint correction with in and get comfortable with using a machine. Then, when they've got that down, you can hand them the forced rotation with elliptical movement machine and they'll be able to do even more correction and get even more done AND because it spins the same direction as the rotary, when they comfortable with that, you can hand them the rotary. Also, guys who all ready run a rotary will be able to use the forced rotation machine without any trouble at all.
That's a sales pitch I'd love to be able to make in the shops I go to. The response you get here, where people are trying to find a better way and are ready to try something different isn't the same as where you're going into a shop and trying to get people who are satisfied with what they've been doing to try something different. Even when you demonstrate that your way is better, faster and easier, they don't really care.
Mike: That's true but as a guy that started out in this industry using a rotary buffer and someone that's used the majority of tools it's seriously and simply not that big of a deal.
IF someone wants to learn how to use a rotary buffer how the backing plate and pad spin on any other tool isn't' going to be the deciding factor that stops them from learning to use the rotary. And from experience, using a rotary requires some level of muscle and physical condition."
RSW: I started out with the Sioux 2000 so pretty much everything we have available now is beyond easy. Variable speed with that meant hitting the trigger and letting it go, lol, so, like you, I can run any machine without a problem. Here again, we both want to figure things out and are willing to adapt. We're not average, and it's not going to matter to you or me. It's Makita's loss.
Mike: Looking forward to your write-up.
I know what's involved in creating an article and besides turning your thoughts into written words and any pictures you take, process and include, it's also important to be as accurate as humanly possible.
RSW: Here's what I think would be interesting as a way to know if the spin on an otherwise random orbital machine - say the Rupes with 21 mm of throw has a real effect. If we can agree that movement between the pad and paint is what causes correction and causes heat, then we can begin.
First: Get a nice flat panel, the Rupes machine, a foam pad, a good compound, a Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer With Laser, some ankle weights, and some string.
Run the machine against the panel with just the weights pushing it down for specified time. Keep it in one spot. Then measure the temperature across the contact patch. Then attach a string to the edge of the pad to keep it from spinning and do the same thing again and measure again. Go back and forth between stopped and free spinning a few times in different spots. If there's difference in the temp when the pad is allowed to spin the free spin matters. If there isn't, there isn't. By doing it over and over, and by using just the weights to push the machine into the paint there should be a noticeable difference if there is one.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for the interesting conversation.
RSW
Now days fewer people use rotary buffers so it's really not a huge factor."
RSW: I've spent a lot of time in shops, both detailing and paint shops and when I show the guys who are familiar with rotary polishers the BO6040 a fair percentage of them have a hard time with it. They aren't as adaptive as you or me. Imagine being able to walk into a shop with three machines - a random orbital - a dual action forced rotation that spins the same direction as a rotary - and a rotary and being able to tell the shop owner. Here's the deal. You can hand someone with no experience at all this random orbital and the can put on wax or do minor paint correction with in and get comfortable with using a machine. Then, when they've got that down, you can hand them the forced rotation with elliptical movement machine and they'll be able to do even more correction and get even more done AND because it spins the same direction as the rotary, when they comfortable with that, you can hand them the rotary. Also, guys who all ready run a rotary will be able to use the forced rotation machine without any trouble at all.
That's a sales pitch I'd love to be able to make in the shops I go to. The response you get here, where people are trying to find a better way and are ready to try something different isn't the same as where you're going into a shop and trying to get people who are satisfied with what they've been doing to try something different. Even when you demonstrate that your way is better, faster and easier, they don't really care.
Mike: That's true but as a guy that started out in this industry using a rotary buffer and someone that's used the majority of tools it's seriously and simply not that big of a deal.
IF someone wants to learn how to use a rotary buffer how the backing plate and pad spin on any other tool isn't' going to be the deciding factor that stops them from learning to use the rotary. And from experience, using a rotary requires some level of muscle and physical condition."
RSW: I started out with the Sioux 2000 so pretty much everything we have available now is beyond easy. Variable speed with that meant hitting the trigger and letting it go, lol, so, like you, I can run any machine without a problem. Here again, we both want to figure things out and are willing to adapt. We're not average, and it's not going to matter to you or me. It's Makita's loss.
Mike: Looking forward to your write-up.
I know what's involved in creating an article and besides turning your thoughts into written words and any pictures you take, process and include, it's also important to be as accurate as humanly possible.
RSW: Here's what I think would be interesting as a way to know if the spin on an otherwise random orbital machine - say the Rupes with 21 mm of throw has a real effect. If we can agree that movement between the pad and paint is what causes correction and causes heat, then we can begin.
First: Get a nice flat panel, the Rupes machine, a foam pad, a good compound, a Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer With Laser, some ankle weights, and some string.
Run the machine against the panel with just the weights pushing it down for specified time. Keep it in one spot. Then measure the temperature across the contact patch. Then attach a string to the edge of the pad to keep it from spinning and do the same thing again and measure again. Go back and forth between stopped and free spinning a few times in different spots. If there's difference in the temp when the pad is allowed to spin the free spin matters. If there isn't, there isn't. By doing it over and over, and by using just the weights to push the machine into the paint there should be a noticeable difference if there is one.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for the interesting conversation.
RSW
WRAPT C5Z06
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There really isn't a need to go into all these scientific tests, when you can put a tape line on a panel; one side, just allow the random orbital to oscillate across the panel. On the other side, allow the random orbital to oscillate and spin. I guarantee you the side that oscillated and spun would have much better correction. No need for the rocket science.
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VISITOR
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- May 10, 2007
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^ i believe someone said the same thing (maybe it was mike) years back in regards to (OPM's on a DA) that. just use the machine(s) and judge the results is what is basically comes down too...
Mike Phillips
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- Dec 5, 2022
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Great thread and lively discussion....
I've been detailing as long as the first modern orbital polisher (Porter Cable), was to be introduced to the car detailing world besides the Cyclo and the GEM back in the 1950s and the 1960s.
And "yes" I have an article on this that documents the history of this tool and how pretty much everything else is a copy of or evolution of this tool.
The Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly - The Story Behind The Story...
On the topic of whether a free spinning orbital polisher, no matter what the brand, can remove swirls and scratches or more specifically, can remove paint by oscillation only, or in reality, vibrating or jiggling against the paint, here's my take, opinion and experience.
Even if a pad and a compound jiggling against a modern clearcoat could remove paint it would be so s-l-o-w and ineffective that it would be a waste of time.
I'm the guy that wrote the first how-to article on how to use the Porter Cable 7424 back in my Meguiar's days. I'm also the guy that stated in print that you MUST press down on the tool while maintaining pad rotating in order to remove below surface paint defects, i.e. remove paint.
Before I wrote this the common recommendation was to let the weight of the tool do the work. If you take a PC today and try to let the weight of the tool do the work you'll be standing by the car forever.
IF you want to remove below surface paint defects using a free spinning orbital polisher then the pad must do two things,
That's my 2 cents. Feel free to agree or disagree but tell you what... I've never had someone show me how to remove defects with a pad only oscillating, which is only vibrating or jiggling against the paint.
I've seen guys say it works but I've never seen anyone prove it. And again... even if it did work it would be so slow and ineffectual that it would be for me... a waste time.
I've been detailing as long as the first modern orbital polisher (Porter Cable), was to be introduced to the car detailing world besides the Cyclo and the GEM back in the 1950s and the 1960s.
And "yes" I have an article on this that documents the history of this tool and how pretty much everything else is a copy of or evolution of this tool.
The Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly - The Story Behind The Story...
On the topic of whether a free spinning orbital polisher, no matter what the brand, can remove swirls and scratches or more specifically, can remove paint by oscillation only, or in reality, vibrating or jiggling against the paint, here's my take, opinion and experience.
Even if a pad and a compound jiggling against a modern clearcoat could remove paint it would be so s-l-o-w and ineffective that it would be a waste of time.
I'm the guy that wrote the first how-to article on how to use the Porter Cable 7424 back in my Meguiar's days. I'm also the guy that stated in print that you MUST press down on the tool while maintaining pad rotating in order to remove below surface paint defects, i.e. remove paint.
Before I wrote this the common recommendation was to let the weight of the tool do the work. If you take a PC today and try to let the weight of the tool do the work you'll be standing by the car forever.
IF you want to remove below surface paint defects using a free spinning orbital polisher then the pad must do two things,
- Rotate
- Oscillate
That's my 2 cents. Feel free to agree or disagree but tell you what... I've never had someone show me how to remove defects with a pad only oscillating, which is only vibrating or jiggling against the paint.
I've seen guys say it works but I've never seen anyone prove it. And again... even if it did work it would be so slow and ineffectual that it would be for me... a waste time.
Mike Phillips
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Anyone reading this thread will probably also be interested in this thread,
The history behind polishing paint with a DA Polisher
:buffing:
The history behind polishing paint with a DA Polisher
:buffing:
ScottH
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Mike well said and couldn't agree more. The efficiency of polishing with the new Makita in feee spin mode in the root of my concern in this thread. My initial testing shows plenty of pad rotation on speed 5 (free spin) but I am not the type of guy to run my polisher full-bore for 6 hours, and more so there are many situations where that speed is not needed, not desired and not ideal as you of course know . I need/expect pad rotation on the lower speeds as well. I can live with some pad stall on speed 1 and 2 - but 3 and higher stalling should be the exception not the rule especially on flat surfaces.
In direct drive mode it would take an NFL player to stop rotation at any speed - so that I am not worried about.
I did hear back from Tony at Makita and he has seen the video I posted showing changing pad direction and pad stall at lower speeds. He is directing this to the attention of the Product Dev team lead who I also offered to work with about our concern. Will keep everyone in the loop.
ScottH
. I need/expect pad rotation on the lower speeds as well. I can live with some pad stall on speed 1 and 2 - but 3 and higher stalling should be the exception not the rule especially on flat surfaces. In direct drive mode it would take an NFL player to stop rotation at any speed - so that I am not worried about.
I did hear back from Tony at Makita and he has seen the video I posted showing changing pad direction and pad stall at lower speeds. He is directing this to the attention of the Product Dev team lead who I also offered to work with about our concern. Will keep everyone in the loop.
ScottH
JustJesus
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For those wondering why the pad is spinning one way at one speed, goes stationary at a higher speed, and then SWITCHES directions at an even higher speed....it's an optical illusion.
"The wagon-wheel effect" is an optical illusion in which a spoked wheel appears to rotate differently from its true rotation. The wheel can appear to rotate more slowly than the true rotation, it can appear stationary, or it can appear to rotate in the opposite direction from the true rotation. This last form of the effect is sometimes called the reverse rotation effect.
I've seen this effect on other wheel designs, not just those with spokes. It's more easily seen with spokes, though.
"The wagon-wheel effect" is an optical illusion in which a spoked wheel appears to rotate differently from its true rotation. The wheel can appear to rotate more slowly than the true rotation, it can appear stationary, or it can appear to rotate in the opposite direction from the true rotation. This last form of the effect is sometimes called the reverse rotation effect.
I've seen this effect on other wheel designs, not just those with spokes. It's more easily seen with spokes, though.
WRAPT C5Z06
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Per Jason Rose of Rupes -
"9mm or smaller orbit tools will require both movements for performance. But large orbit tools are less dependent on rotation....however best performance is always with both movements."
That's last sentence is the most telling thing Jason Rose said, and as Mike Phillips has said many times. Therefore, I want the most pad rotation I can get = most efficiency. There is no way that pad rotation makes little difference to oscillation with a random orbital.
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"9mm or smaller orbit tools will require both movements for performance. But large orbit tools are less dependent on rotation....however best performance is always with both movements."
That's last sentence is the most telling thing Jason Rose said, and as Mike Phillips has said many times. Therefore, I want the most pad rotation I can get = most efficiency. There is no way that pad rotation makes little difference to oscillation with a random orbital.
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DARK HORSE
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^^ And that's why I "usually" reach for a Flex 3401!
ScottH
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I want to believe what you are saying, really - but have a look at the blue tape on this video I made. Isn't the rotational direction truly changing direction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhG8O1tnWcU
ScottH