Flex XCE 9-8 150 anyone know when it will actually be released ?

[VISITOR]

the long throw DA's were suppose to work quicker because of it's throw compared to the 3401 but quite of few said that opposite and still use/prefer the 3401 for heavy correction. we can talk about stats on paper all day long, but the real test will come down face to face with both polishers going head to head...

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

the long throw DA's were suppose to work quicker because of it's throw compared to the 3401 but quite of few said that opposite and still use/prefer the 3401 for heavy correction. we can talk about stats on paper all day long, but the real test will come down face to face with both polishers going head to head...

Long throw requires much more technique.


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[VISITOR]

^ still some prefer the 3401 over the long throw regardless. just like anything else these days, personal preference i guess...

 

[kkritsilas]

the free spin mode of the PO5000c isnt anything to write home about(think GG3)
the reason why flex has to worry is because both the PO5000C and the Mille will out correct it while being smooth and no vibration compared ot the jack hammer vibration of the 3401/XCE

Pound for Pound in forced mode makita is the clear winner.
The time the Mille comes out I think performance and smoothness/vibration between the PO5000c will be negligible..People will only choose due to brand loyalty...or people that have their mind set thinking clockwise rotation will work better then counter clockwise...that's it.

IF i could only choose a flex, and the XCE came out today with non revised specs...id choose the 3401 over XCE

In the case of the Mille, it is hard to say as it hasn't been released yet (unless you are testing it and are under NDA). As for the PO5000c, I would like to see a head to head between it and the 3401 (3401 using 5.5" pads like to PO5000c). I have been hoping to see such a video on Youtube, but nothing like that yet. Most of what is being said about the new polishers (PO5000c, Rupes Mille, and the Flex XCE) is mostly just speculation and talk. "The Mille will be smoother than the 3401" , The PO5000c and Mille will out correct the 3401". My simple question is "How do you know?". Unless there are tests from multiple, independent, reliable sources, this is speculation.

The Rupes Mille will be smoother than the 3401 based on what? the smoothness of the Bigfoot DAs? Has it occurred to anybody to ask whether or not the vibration control of the DAs is even applicable to forced rotation polishers?. Has it occurred to anybody that Flex may have chosen an 8mm throw for a reason? We have all seen the email from Todd at Rupes saying that throw is unimportant on fixed rotation polishers. Is that from a stalling perspective, or is that from a rate of paint correction perspective?

So, until some real testing is done, preferably by people with experience on a variety of polishers, that are independent, knowledgeable, and reliable, the rush to pronounce the 3401 as superceded, or dead, is extremely premature, and is at the least, quite speculative.

 

[Mike@ShineStruck]

In the case of the Mille, it is hard to say as it hasn't been released yet (unless you are testing it and are under NDA). As for the PO5000c, I would like to see a head to head between it and the 3401 (3401 using 5.5" pads like to PO5000c). I have been hoping to see such a video on Youtube, but nothing like that yet. Most of what is being said about the new polishers (PO5000c, Rupes Mille, and the Flex XCE) is mostly just speculation and talk. "The Mille will be smoother than the 3401" , The PO5000c and Mille will out correct the 3401". My simple question is "How do you know?". Unless there are tests from multiple, independent, reliable sources, this is speculation.

The Rupes Mille will be smoother than the 3401 based on what? the smoothness of the Bigfoot DAs? Has it occurred to anybody to ask whether or not the vibration control of the DAs is even applicable to forced rotation polishers?. Has it occurred to anybody that Flex may have chosen an 8mm throw for a reason? We have all seen the email from Todd at Rupes saying that throw is unimportant on fixed rotation polishers. Is that from a stalling perspective, or is that from a rate of paint correction perspective?

So, until some real testing is done, preferably by people with experience on a variety of polishers, that are independent, knowledgeable, and reliable, the rush to pronounce the 3401 as superceded, or dead, is extremely premature, and is at the least, quite speculative.

I can do one, what you want to see
1000k wetsand, 4 passes each?

smoothness based on the fact the po5000c has more stroke then the mille, and is night and dahy from the 3401 and the XCE preproduction unit ive tested

 

[kkritsilas]

1000K seems a little bit rough, maybe 2000-3000 grit would be a more accurate approximation of swirled up cars seen in tetailing? Same compound, polish and pads/pad sizeon each polisher to keep the variables to a minimum. Try to keep the arm speed consistent.

As for the polisher speed settings, use whatever you feel is optimumon each. The OPM on the PO5000c is higher than the 3401, so matching speeds doesn't make for a fair test, and would cover up one of the advanced of the PO5000c.

Looking firward to seeing that video, if yoy get around to doing it.

 

[Mike@ShineStruck]

1000K seems a little bit rough, maybe 2000-3000 grit would be a more accurate approximation of swirled up cars seen in tetailing? Same compound, polish and pads/pad sizeon each polisher to keep the variables to a minimum. Try to keep the arm speed consistent.

As for the polisher speed settings, use whatever you feel is optimumon each. The OPM on the PO5000c is higher than the 3401, so matching speeds doesn't make for a fair test, and would cover up one of the advanced of the PO5000c.

Looking firward to seeing that video, if yoy get around to doing it.

yeah, if i dialed down OPM to match 3401....3401 would win due to stroke i have a green honda hood i could use...my kia is silver, so not a good test mule

ill try 1500 grit

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

yeah, if i dialed down OPM to match 3401....3401 would win due to stroke i have a green honda hood i could use...my kia is silver, so not a good test mule

ill try 1500 grit

Definitely use top speeds with both machines. Pointless to dial down the Makita.

 

[Mike@ShineStruck]

Definitely use top speeds with both machines. Pointless to dial down the Makita.

yeah i know..whole advantage of makita is opm..need a certain amount of OPM to overcome lack of throw...Griot figured this out..which is why i think they made a HD 3in BP for the GG6 instead of making a G12 mini

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Looking forward to this. Thanks.


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[WRAPT C5Z06]

1000 grit for sure. Any higher and both will knock out the defects with ease. Then what? With a lower grit, you'll be able to tell which Is capable of better/faster cutting.


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[Mike@ShineStruck]

well im mad, recorded via phone...cut off right when i put down makita on panel, no big deal...video two recorded makita in action....phone plays video one...says cant play video 2! lmao...should of just did Facebook Live

all in all both took out 1500 grit easily by 4 passes

next test, i'll have a helper use camera and i'll FB live it with 1000 grit...maybe 3 passes this time

this was with 6.5 green B&S low pros btw and also just weight of machine

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

well im mad, recorded via phone...cut off right when i put down makita on panel, no big deal...video two recorded makita in action....phone plays video one...says cant play video 2! lmao...should of just did Facebook Live

all in all both took out 1500 grit easily by 4 passes

next test, i'll have a helper use camera and i'll FB live it with 1000 grit...maybe 3 passes this time

this was with 6.5 green B&S low pros btw and also just weight of machine

Cool. Looking forward to FB live.

On a side note, I wouldn't use a 6.5" pad with the Makita. You're not doing the machine justice with a 5" BP.


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[Deje]

As long as there is not a "Flex 3401" with 12mm or 15mm throw, I sit quietly in the boat, nothing to see here, move along

 

[kkritsilas]

The only place a 12 or 15mm throw makes any difference is with a free rotation DA. The Flex 3401 is NOT a free rotation DA, it is a forced rotation DA. Todd of Rupes themselves has said that long throws DO NOT MATTER FOR FIXED ROTATION polishers, and this is from probably the world leader in long throw free rotation DAs. This may or may not be true, I await detialed, reliable testing results, like nothingface5384 is in the process of doing.

It is also possible that a 12 to 15mm forced roration DA would be unusable due to either, or both of:

a) Excessive vibration: many people already consider the 8mm throw 3401's vibration to be excessive. A longer throw forced rotation polisher would be worse, possibly far worse;

b) massive size/weight: If the long throw forced rotation DA were to be designed to have a low vibration level, it would most likely require large rotating balance weights, which will increase the size and weight of the polisher. Using something like that can become a problem in and of itself.

It is not realistic to apply what works in free rotation DAs (i.e. long throws, ex. Rupes Bigfoot 15/21, GG Boss 15/21) to forced rotation DAs (i.e. Flex 3401, Makita PO5000c, upcoming Rupes Mille, etc.). If Rupes made the Mille with only a 5.5mm throw, and keeping in mind their expertise in balancing long throw free rotation DAs, it must make you think that there is a reason for that.

 

[Deje]

The only place a 12 or 15mm throw makes any difference is with a free rotation DA. The Flex 3401 is NOT a free rotation DA, it is a forced rotation DA. Todd of Rupes themselves has said that long throws DO NOT MATTER FOR FIXED ROTATION polishers, and this is from probably the world leader in long throw free rotation DAs. This may or may not be true, I await detialed, reliable testing results, like nothingface5384 is in the process of doing.

It is also possible that a 12 to 15mm forced roration DA would be unusable due to either, or both of:

a) Excessive vibration: many people already consider the 8mm throw 3401's vibration to be excessive. A longer throw forced rotation polisher would be worse, possibly far worse;

b) massive size/weight: If the long throw forced rotation DA were to be designed to have a low vibration level, it would most likely require large rotating balance weights, which will increase the size and weight of the polisher. Using something like that can become a problem in and of itself.

It is not realistic to apply what works in free rotation DAs (i.e. long throws, ex. Rupes Bigfoot 15/21, GG Boss 15/21) to forced rotation DAs (i.e. Flex 3401, Makita PO5000c, upcoming Rupes Mille, etc.). If Rupes made the Mille with only a 5.5mm throw, and keeping in mind their expertise in balancing long throw free rotation DAs, it must make you think that there is a reason for that.

So what you basically say is that the Flex 3401 is complete, we do not need and it's not possible to get it better, so nothing to see, move along

 

[kkritsilas]

No, the 3401 can stand to be improved in many ways. First one, in my own mind is to improve airflow throughout the polisher so that the gear head doesn't heat up so much, keeping the backing plate cool, and to try and keep the dust out of the motor (look at what Makita has done with air intake filters). More power can be added, if it makes sense. Ergonomics can be improved (is in the soft rubber forward grip in the Rupes Mark II DAs). Maybe change the direction of rotation (some people have a problem with it; I don't). Make it lighter (as long as it doesn't affect durability). Maybe increasing the OPMs is a possibility (if they can keep the vibration under control). Lots of things can be done, but chasing throw length doesn't seem to be what anybody is doing. or asking for in fixed rotation polishers.

What may not make sense is to try to use free spinning DA ideas (i.e. long throw) into a non-free rotating DA. As I have pointed out before, there are two well respected polisher companies (Flex and Rupes (and let us not forget that Rupes is the originator of long throw free rotation DAs)) who have both decided to NOT bring out long throw fixed rotation DAs, and a third, well known, tool manufacturer (Makita) who has done the same. I think they have done some work and found that long throws on fixed rotation DAs are not worth the other compromises that need to be made to other aspects of the machines. I refer you again to the text message from Todd of Rupes.

Anything can be improved. It is just that there is specsmanship, and there is genuine improvement. Long throws on free rotating DAs are an improvement. Long throws on fixed rotation DAs probably ( I don't know for sure) are NOT; If they were, somebody would have made one already (I don't know that they haven't in the labs, but nothing announced so far). The two newest fixed rotation DAs (the Makita PO5000c and the Rupes Mille) have REDUCED their throws to 5.5mm (vs. the 8mm on the 3401) and gone to a higher OPM (twice the OPM of the 3401). Maybe that is the sweet spot in fixed rotation DAs; maybe not. Only testing will show what the real story is. Fixating on throw length in fixed rotation DAs really is a path that you don't want to go down; and as for which is best, like I said before, only resting will show the true story.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Anything can be improved. It is just that there is specsmanship, and there is genuine improvement. Long throws on free rotating DAs are an improvement. Long throws on fixed rotation DAs probably ( I don't know for sure) are NOT; If they were, somebody would have made one already (I don't know that they haven't in the labs, but nothing announced so far). The two newest fixed rotation DAs (the Makita PO5000c and the Rupes Mille) have REDUCED their throws to 5.5mm (vs. the 8mm on the 3401) and gone to a higher OPM (twice the OPM of the 3401). Maybe that is the sweet spot in fixed rotation DAs; maybe not. Only testing will show what the real story is. Fixating on throw length in fixed rotation DAs really is a path that you don't want to go down; and as for which is best, like I said before, only resting will show the true story.

Very true. I asked Kevin Brown why he thought Rupes & Makita went to a SMALLER throw and he said most likely to make it vibrate less and more user friendly(less steering). Going to a larger stroke than 8mm with a gear driven polisher will do the opposite.

 

[RSW]

The only place a 12 or 15mm throw makes any difference is with a free rotation DA. The Flex 3401 is NOT a free rotation DA, it is a forced rotation DA. Todd of Rupes themselves has said that long throws DO NOT MATTER FOR FIXED ROTATION polishers, and this is from probably the world leader in long throw free rotation DAs. This may or may not be true, I await detialed, reliable testing results, like nothingface5384 is in the process of doing.

It is also possible that a 12 to 15mm forced roration DA would be unusable due to either, or both of:

a) Excessive vibration: many people already consider the 8mm throw 3401's vibration to be excessive. A longer throw forced rotation polisher would be worse, possibly far worse;

b) massive size/weight: If the long throw forced rotation DA were to be designed to have a low vibration level, it would most likely require large rotating balance weights, which will increase the size and weight of the polisher. Using something like that can become a problem in and of itself.

It is not realistic to apply what works in free rotation DAs (i.e. long throws, ex. Rupes Bigfoot 15/21, GG Boss 15/21) to forced rotation DAs (i.e. Flex 3401, Makita PO5000c, upcoming Rupes Mille, etc.). If Rupes made the Mille with only a 5.5mm throw, and keeping in mind their expertise in balancing long throw free rotation DAs, it must make you think that there is a reason for that.

I agree long throw on a forced rotation machine is in fact all about vibration. You can't counter weight the friction or the pad against the paint. Even if the machine spun vibration free up in the air - the minute it hits the panel it all goes sideways... At the same time, as long as there's enough orbit to cross cut out any swirl it's fine. In fact, as far as I can see, once you get to the point where the swirl is gone, stop right there, because forced rotation machines are effective because of the rotation, not the orbit.

Personally, I like forced rotation achieved by the use of planetary gears better than by gearing the backing plate to the housing the way flex does. The gear driven machines are demonstrably smoother and the action is better, there's more movement on the outside edge.

RSW

 

[Deje]

The only place a 12 or 15mm throw makes any difference is with a free rotation DA. The Flex 3401 is NOT a free rotation DA, it is a forced rotation DA. Todd of Rupes themselves has said that long throws DO NOT MATTER FOR FIXED ROTATION polishers, and this is from probably the world leader in long throw free rotation DAs. This may or may not be true, I await detialed, reliable testing results, like nothingface5384 is in the process of doing.

It is also possible that a 12 to 15mm forced roration DA would be unusable due to either, or both of:

a) Excessive vibration: many people already consider the 8mm throw 3401's vibration to be excessive. A longer throw forced rotation polisher would be worse, possibly far worse;

b) massive size/weight: If the long throw forced rotation DA were to be designed to have a low vibration level, it would most likely require large rotating balance weights, which will increase the size and weight of the polisher. Using something like that can become a problem in and of itself.

It is not realistic to apply what works in free rotation DAs (i.e. long throws, ex. Rupes Bigfoot 15/21, GG Boss 15/21) to forced rotation DAs (i.e. Flex 3401, Makita PO5000c, upcoming Rupes Mille, etc.). If Rupes made the Mille with only a 5.5mm throw, and keeping in mind their expertise in balancing long throw free rotation DAs, it must make you think that there is a reason for that.

First, you argue with what Todd has said about the longer throw, then you say you do not know if it's true !?
Was it Todd who also said that Rupes did not need more power, and then increased it by 30%.

"It is also possible that a 12 to 15mm forced roration DA would be unusable due to either, or both of:"
It is only a speculation, may be true, but still a speculation.

We can not have a discussion, if your speculation is to be taken for truth, I can also speculate, but it does not make them more true than yours.

Also link to Todd's statement so we can get that statement verified