Headlight Restoration-new UV sealant idea

[ray6]

Re: How to prevent runs

Did my first on a personal car -- a 2002 sequoia that has not been paid much attention.

Followed the plan well -- chemicals, wet sanding 800/100/1500, then application of spar of 50%/50%.

All looked great with the exception of runny spar on the headlights. Lots of runs, almost at each horizonal pass.

Do you think this was too much product on the scott towel, or do you think my mix of spar/mineral spirtis was too thick or thin?

I satuarted the scott towel -- perhaps I should have pressed out some of the spar before wiping?

Do you guys find that a really thin coat is best to prevent runs?

Will the mix affect this, e.g., would more poly say to 60% or 70% be thicker and prevent the runs?

What are your experiences?

Thanks.

David

Did you stir the mixture well before wiping? MS is thinner than spar and would tend to rise to the top.
ray6

 

[ray6]

Re: How to prevent runs

Did you stir the mixture well before wiping? MS is thinner than spar and would tend to rise to the top.
ray6

You could also start with 80/20 mix and apply just a little. See how it flows. If it's O.K., wipe off the spot with MS and coat headlight. If too thick, add more MS to your mix and try again. Make sure to stir your mix well.

The thicker the coating, the longer it will last. The only limit is drying time and self leveling.

As the temperature increases and/or humidity decreases, you need to add MS to retard the curing time.

Try to custom mix your spar/MS to current weather conditions and wipe down the headlight with propanol or 100% alcohol before coating. Alcohol is a magnet for moisture and moisture is your enemy. Also dries much faster than MS.
ray6

 

[ray6]

Re: How to prevent runs

Did you stir the mixture well before wiping? MS is thinner than spar and would tend to rise to the top.

You could also start with 80/20 mix and apply just a little. See how it flows. If it's O.K., wipe off the spot with MS and coat headlight. If too thick, add more MS to your mix and try again. Make sure to stir your mix well.

The thicker the coating, the longer it will last. The only limit is shorter curing time and self leveling ability.

As the temperature increases and/or humidity decreases, you need to add MS to retard the curing time.

Try to custom mix your spar/MS to current weather conditions and wipe down the headlight with propanol or 100% alcohol before coating. Alcohol is a magnet for moisture and moisture is your enemy. Also dries much faster than MS.
ray6

 

[davidc11291]

Part-timer, thanks so much for the detailed explanation and pics. Now I can visualize exactly how you do it.

 

[davidc11291]

Ray, do you wipe with straight 91% IPA? I assume that cutting it with water to get a lower IPA concentration (like we typically use on paint) would be counter productive.

 

[Part-timer]

Ray, do you wipe with straight 91% IPA? I assume that cutting it with water to get a lower IPA concentration (like we typically use on paint) would be counter productive.

I'm not sure but, I think what ray meant to say was NOT to use IPA at all. If alcohol attracts water like a magnet and water is your enemy....it wouldn't make sense to use it in my book.

 

[SameGuy]

I've been meaning to try it for some time but other things get in the way. My headlamps are pristine, wife's are only somewhat hazed after ten years. Mom's and BIL's need attention, but it's hard to coordinate. I may just get around to it next weekend.

 

[ray6]

The higher the alcohol content, the better it will capture moisture on the headlight. Alcohol is hygroscopic, meaning it is attracted and will capture water. Rubbing alcohol is 70% water and will not attract water with the same force. 100% is best, 91% is better than rubbing alcohol, rubbing alcohol is better than MS. MS is better than nothing. Incidently, regular mineral spirits and paint thinner are the same thing. Oderless mineral spirits is paint thinner distilled again to remove sulpher and is generally a higher quality product.

The point of the alcohol is to:
Remove any residual moisture.
Remove any residual material from previous steps.
Dry quickly so you can get on with it.

NEW TOPIC/THOUGHT PROCESS:
In case anyone's interested, I copied an article I did some time ago on setting prices:

What should you charge for headlight restoration?

When trying to properly price headlight restoration (or any other service) you need to know what it costs you to perform the service, including direct labor, materials and travel time. These costs can be subtle. For example, let's say we have 2 restorers, Andy and Bob. They both want to make $45/hour.

Andy normally works only on dealer lots. He machine sands, doesn't tape or mask, doesn't spray on a new coating and doesn't require any special equipment such as UV curing lights. He uses a chemical stripper ,only needs to sand 1 in 4 headlights and machine sands when needed. He uses a high grade solvent based final coat which easily fills in 1500 grit scratches when he does sand. He warrants his work for 2 years. He averages 30 min. between lots.

Job 1: 1996 Ford- 20 min. total
Labor: 20 min. Material: $2.40=$17.40+1/3 travel=$32.40 cost

Job 2: 2000 Dodge Caravan- 30 min. total
Labor: 30 min. Material: $3.55=$26.05+1/3 travel=$41.05 cost

Job 3: 1999 Jeep- 55 min. total
Labor: 55 min. Material: 6.75=$48.00+1/3 travel=$63.00 cost

Cost for 3 jobs: $136.45

Bob also works only on dealer lots. He hand sands, doesn't use a chemical stripper, and needs to sand every headlight. He uses the spar/ms based final coat which easily fills in 1500 grit. He warrants his work for 1 year and hopes it lasts. He averages 30 min. between lots.

Job 1: 1996 Ford- 40 min. total
Labor: 40 min. Material: $1.00=$31.00+1/3 travel=$46.00 cost

Job 2: 2000 Dodge Caravan- 60 min. total
Labor: 60 min. Material: $1.50=$46.50+1/3 travel=$61.50 cost

Job 3: 1999 Jeep- 120 min. total
Labor: 120 min. Material: 4.75=$94.75+1/3 travel=$109.00 cost

Cost for 3 jobs: $216.50

Bob requires $80 more from his customers to break even than Andy, but the difference in material costs is $6.00 plus a $100 sander.Andy also provides a 2 year warranty. And this is only 3 jobs. Imagine the cost difference over months or years. Bob needs to charge about $25 per job more than Andy to meet his nut. Imagine if Andy and Bob are competing for the same customers. There's nothing wrong in hand sanding or using spar, as long as you understand the true costs.

With our example you can argue the dollar rates but the labor time and material costs (spar/ms was calculated) are based on info from our dealers. Keep in mind that your break even point must also factor in vehicle costs, insurance, advertising and many other things.

The point is that hand sanding and using spar/ms to save money doesn't work. Anything that lowers your costs will generate greater profit, and 90% of your cost is labor. What you can actually charge is a function of your market, competition and other factors.

Good headlight restorers usually end up getting a large percentage of new customers from referrals. Starting out you may have to do restorations at a discount or even free, but do the job in such a way that your customer is your new free salesman.
ray6

 

[ray6]

I'm not sure but, I think what ray meant to say was NOT to use IPA at all. If alcohol attracts water like a magnet and water is your enemy....it wouldn't make sense to use it in my book.

Water is your enemy on the headlight surface. Alcohol removes the moisture so it won't interfere with your coating application of any solvent based coatings which would include spar/ms (usually causes white streaks).
ray6

 

[light-bright]

For those of you having issues with the spar. I have found this to work for me.

1. I am in AZ so the temps are as much as 110 when I apply. I use a 50/50 or a 60/40 mix I have not noticed a huge difference in the lifespan personally. I have noticed the 50/50 tends to be a little more forgiving when applied.

Here is what I do differently than a lot of others.
I don't mix a tiny amount in a cup and dip the towel. I actually mix 3 small bottles at home, and one bottle will last about 15+ cars. For me that can be days to over a week. The other bottles do not seem to dry out and I simply pour some Alcohol into the bottle once it is nearly or completely empty. This keeps the spar from hardening. Then I rinse it until nearly perfectly clean and refill.
These small bottles, I pick up at Hobby Lobby and they are I think $1 each. They have a small flip top lid and it seems to seal just fine. I will try to put a pic up when I get a chance.
Anyway, I just pop the top and the small hole allows me to squirt a little out onto my blue towel with complete control. I just give enough to get the edge wet (about two light passes from end to end) Then I simply apply in a wiping motion working top to bottom. On occasion I have had one issue, and that is ALWAYS my fault. I have sometimes let my hand dip leaving a missed spot. Unfortunately, when that happens, I have to break out the Alcohol and clean up. The up side is you can just let that dry, and re-apply. You do not have to use OMS to clean again. I like the OMS for initial cleaning simply because it does take a little longer to evaporate letting me get a good look at what my finished product will be.

If I forgot something, or you have questions, let me know.

 

[Part-timer]

I'm not sure but, I think what ray meant to say was NOT to use IPA at all. If alcohol attracts water like a magnet and water is your enemy....it wouldn't make sense to use it in my book.

Water is your enemy on the headlight surface. Alcohol removes the moisture so it won't interfere with your coating application of any solvent based coatings which would include spar/ms (usually causes white streaks).
ray6

It's obvious that you don't care for the spar/ms method by the little digs that you often feel necessary to add into your posts......ie... "(usually causes white streaks)"
I've used the spar method for almost 3 years and have never had white streaks or any other problems.
It does feel to me that you are trying to sway people to use your products in this forum. I find it interesting that some on here have basically accused you of trying to sell your products via this post and you've had the exact same thing happen on the Delta Kits headlight restoration forum. They even went so far as to specifically tell you to NOT do that on their site any more.

 

[ray6]

It's obvious that you don't care for the spar/ms method by the little digs that you often feel necessary to add into your posts......ie... "(usually causes white streaks)"
I've used the spar method for almost 3 years and have never had white streaks or any other problems.
It does feel to me that you are trying to sway people to use your products in this forum. I find it interesting that some on here have basically accused you of trying to sell your products via this post and you've had the exact same thing happen on the Delta Kits headlight restoration forum. They even went so far as to specifically tell you to NOT do that on their site any more.

What I said is that moisture on the headlight will cause white streaks with most any solvent based coating. Doesn't matter if it's spar or another brand. This is why it's important to wipe with alcohlol or MS before coating. Alcohol is better because it attracts moisture and dries faster.

I didn't get kicked off Delta Kits forum, I was told not to mention specific product names, mine or others.
ray6

 

[ray6]

Ray, do you wipe with straight 91% IPA? I assume that cutting it with water to get a lower IPA concentration (like we typically use on paint) would be counter productive.

The higher the concentration of alcohol, the better it will attract water and the faster the dry.
ray6

 

[ray6]

For those of you having issues with the spar. I have found this to work for me.

1. I am in AZ so the temps are as much as 110 when I apply. I use a 50/50 or a 60/40 mix I have not noticed a huge difference in the lifespan personally. I have noticed the 50/50 tends to be a little more forgiving when applied.

Here is what I do differently than a lot of others.
I don't mix a tiny amount in a cup and dip the towel. I actually mix 3 small bottles at home, and one bottle will last about 15+ cars. For me that can be days to over a week. The other bottles do not seem to dry out and I simply pour some Alcohol into the bottle once it is nearly or completely empty. This keeps the spar from hardening. Then I rinse it until nearly perfectly clean and refill.
These small bottles, I pick up at Hobby Lobby and they are I think $1 each. They have a small flip top lid and it seems to seal just fine. I will try to put a pic up when I get a chance.
Anyway, I just pop the top and the small hole allows me to squirt a little out onto my blue towel with complete control. I just give enough to get the edge wet (about two light passes from end to end) Then I simply apply in a wiping motion working top to bottom. On occasion I have had one issue, and that is ALWAYS my fault. I have sometimes let my hand dip leaving a missed spot. Unfortunately, when that happens, I have to break out the Alcohol and clean up. The up side is you can just let that dry, and re-apply. You do not have to use OMS to clean again. I like the OMS for initial cleaning simply because it does take a little longer to evaporate letting me get a good look at what my finished product will be.

If I forgot something, or you have questions, let me know.

Great post. Might suggest you add a ball bearing to your bottles and shake before dispensing to make sure there is no spar/ms separation. Don't know if spar/ms separates over time, but some 1K solvent based coatings do.
ray6

 

[ray6]

It's obvious that you don't care for the spar/ms method by the little digs that you often feel necessary to add into your posts......ie... "(usually causes white streaks)"
I've used the spar method for almost 3 years and have never had white streaks or any other problems.
It does feel to me that you are trying to sway people to use your products in this forum. I find it interesting that some on here have basically accused you of trying to sell your products via this post and you've had the exact same thing happen on the Delta Kits headlight restoration forum. They even went so far as to specifically tell you to NOT do that on their site any more.

It's true I am not a big fan of the spar/ms method if you're charging money and here's why:

1. Can be tricky to apply in different temperature/humidity conditions.

2. Lucky to average 1 year lifetime.

3. Not available in all areas, and will be banned in others soon due to V.O.C. regulations.

4. Low solids contents.

There are proprietary coatings available specifically designed to block UV, level on vertical surfaces, and stick to polycarbonate and last 2 years. There are many available and the cost difference is probably less than 75 cents per headlight.

For that 75 cents, you're talking about 2 years instead of 1 year, with a choice of water borne or solvent based, with cure times of 5 minutes (water borne) expanding your market potential to include car washes, oil changes, etc.

It seems to me that the added benefits are worth a buck per headlight.

I'm not trying to sell you my company's products, in fact they're not even available yet. What I am trying to do is get restorers to look at all the factors when advancing their business.

It's not our products vs. spar, it's alternative coatings vs. spar.

I honestly can't see the advantages of spar other than cost and availability.
ray6

 

[davidc11291]

For those of you having issues with the spar. I have found this to work for me.

1. I am in AZ so the temps are as much as 110 when I apply. I use a 50/50 or a 60/40 mix I have not noticed a huge difference in the lifespan personally. I have noticed the 50/50 tends to be a little more forgiving when applied.

Here is what I do differently than a lot of others.
I don't mix a tiny amount in a cup and dip the towel. I actually mix 3 small bottles at home, and one bottle will last about 15+ cars. For me that can be days to over a week. The other bottles do not seem to dry out and I simply pour some Alcohol into the bottle once it is nearly or completely empty. This keeps the spar from hardening. Then I rinse it until nearly perfectly clean and refill.
These small bottles, I pick up at Hobby Lobby and they are I think $1 each. They have a small flip top lid and it seems to seal just fine. I will try to put a pic up when I get a chance.
Anyway, I just pop the top and the small hole allows me to squirt a little out onto my blue towel with complete control. I just give enough to get the edge wet (about two light passes from end to end) Then I simply apply in a wiping motion working top to bottom. On occasion I have had one issue, and that is ALWAYS my fault. I have sometimes let my hand dip leaving a missed spot. Unfortunately, when that happens, I have to break out the Alcohol and clean up. The up side is you can just let that dry, and re-apply. You do not have to use OMS to clean again. I like the OMS for initial cleaning simply because it does take a little longer to evaporate letting me get a good look at what my finished product will be.

If I forgot something, or you have questions, let me know.

Great info.

1. Have you had any problems with the spar/OMS mixture degrading the plastic bottles? I recently used a red Solo brand cup for mixing, and a couple of hours later, when I went to throw the cup in the dumpster, I found that the mixture had eaten through and destroyed the cup.

2. Have you had any problems with premixing the spar and OMS? I'm wondering if the OMS will degrade the spar when premixed. Any idea on how long you can store the mixture before you need to throw it out and make a fresh batch?

 

[GP49]

Ray is correct about moisture causing white streaking with the spar varnish. I've had it happen when I was in a hurry. But I think something similar would occur with just about any non-aqueous coating. Water doesn't mix with oil or solvent-based products, period!

His advice, "KEEP IT DRY" is valid.

As to durability, I've noted anomalies there that may involve other than the material. On two Ford Tauruses with the same body style (which MIGHT be assumed to have headlights made of similar polycarbonate formulations), both of which are kept outside all the time in the same neighborhood (even the driveways face the same direction), one needs recoating with spar varnish about every few months. The other was at more than two years when I decided to redo it just as a matter of principle. It didn't need it, and looked hardly any different once redone.

 

[ray6]

Great info.

1. Have you had any problems with the spar/OMS mixture degrading the plastic bottles? I recently used a red Solo brand cup for mixing, and a couple of hours later, when I went to throw the cup in the dumpster, I found that the mixture had eaten through and destroyed the cup.

2. Have you had any problems with premixing the spar and OMS? I'm wondering if the OMS will degrade the spar when premixed. Any idea on how long you can store the mixture before you need to throw it out and make a fresh batch?

The spar is a polyurethane that cures by solvent evaporation and oxygen adsorption. If you are going to premix, you need to place it in containers that won't allow oxygen to permeate through. Safest would be glass or metal. If using glass, try to get amber bottles in case there any reaction of UV to the mixture. An old medicine bottle might work fine. Some drug stores will sell you empty medicine bottles with caps.

After pouring out your pre-mixed coating, wipe the threads off with a paper towel before recapping so you don't get hardened coating particles when you open it again. Also won't need pliers to open the cap.

To increase shelf life, fill your containers up to the top to reduce trapped oxygen.

Spar/ms may separate over time, so you might add a ball bearing to your container so you can shake it before opening.

I don't think premixing would alter shelf life since you're just adding something that is already there.

Commercial coatings are packaged with argon to increase the shelf life (before opening) by eliminating trapped air. Same with wine.

If your cups are melting, I would worry that some of the cup material might be included on the headlight. You might look for paper cups (like for ketchup/McDonald's) as long as they are not wax coated. Easy way to tell is fill half way with water. Wait 15 minutes. If water soaks through bottom, they're probably O.K. Spar will also soak through but who cares?

Another alternative would to place aluminum foil in your cup before pouring in coating, toss when done. You could keep using the cup. Maybe a shot glass?

Your red cup was probably made of PVC or styrene. Both will probably dissolve with MS.
ray6

 

[davidc11291]

The spar is a polyurethane that cures by solvent evaporation and oxygen adsorption. If you are going to premix, you need to place it in containers that won't allow oxygen to permeate through. Safest would be glass or metal. If using glass, try to get amber bottles in case there any reaction of UV to the mixture. An old medicine bottle might work fine. Some drug stores will sell you empty medicine bottles with caps.

After pouring out your pre-mixed coating, wipe the threads off with a paper towel before recapping so you don't get hardened coating particles when you open it again. Also won't need pliers to open the cap.

To increase shelf life, fill your containers up to the top to reduce trapped oxygen.

Spar/ms may separate over time, so you might add a ball bearing to your container so you can shake it before opening.

I don't think premixing would alter shelf life since you're just adding something that is already there.

Commercial coatings are packaged with argon to increase the shelf life (before opening) by eliminating trapped air. Same with wine.

If your cups are melting, I would worry that some of the cup material might be included on the headlight. You might look for paper cups (like for ketchup/McDonald's) as long as they are not wax coated. Easy way to tell is fill half way with water. Wait 15 minutes. If water soaks through bottom, they're probably O.K. Spar will also soak through but who cares?

Another alternative would to place aluminum foil in your cup before pouring in coating, toss when done. You could keep using the cup. Maybe a shot glass?

Your red cup was probably made of PVC or styrene. Both will probably dissolve with MS.
ray6

Very good info. I agree that glass or metal is best for storing a premix. I previously had a problem where I stored just the spar (not mixed yet) in a small, amber colored vitamin bottle. I washed the bottle thoroughly before storing the spar, but I don't think that I allowed it to fully dry. Water was in my spar, and caused big problems with hazy streaking during application.

Since spar absorbs (and is degraded by) UV, I would think that storing it in a UV blocking container would be very important to ensuring the longest possible protection once its applied to a lens. If it has already absorbed some amount of UV, it just seems logical that it's lifespan has been reduced somewhat. Coming from a medical background, a lot of the IV meds that I would give were often packaged in amber colored vials, specifically to block out light because they were degraded by light.

As far as storing it in a prescription medicine vial, I don't think that's a good idea at all. The screw on caps don't create a seal that can be depended on to be 100% airtight 100% of the time. I've also stored other liquids in them before and they will occasionally leak. 3 things will cause problems with spar- water, air, and UV. Water causes splotchy streaking. Air causes it to dry, and UV causes it to degrade. IMO, a prescription pill bottle won't properly protect spar from these 3 things.

You're point about the cup melting was exactly what I was thinking, too. If the MS is melting the cup, then some of the cup material has to be getting mixed in and applied on the headlight. Even if it's just a little bit, I still don't like it.

 

[ray6]

I saw on another post a recipe for stripping headlights using mean green and tire cleaner. Has anyone tried it?

Also, Impalas are becoming an item. Has anyone tried just removing the deteriorated part of the coating then recoating the entire headlight? If the original coating is as tough as it seems, the only problem would be if the coating you're using would stick to the original coating and not chemically interfere. Might be a great time saver.
ray6