High quality production detailing by Mike Phillips

Mr. Phillips,

First off, many thanks for the article. It has really catalyzed my concerns regarding a service I offer.


and while I, along with probably everyone else here, enjoy what you post, I definitely enjoy the articles that focus on budget projects.

Best regards,
-Gabe


Hi Gabe,

Just real quick before I log off for the day, I read your post but because it can take a little time to use the multi-quote coding ability in vBulletin to dissect and then type out the answers, I just didn't get to it today.

Didn't want you to think I was avoiding your great questions, just had some offline projects to take care of today.

I'm offline all day tomorrow for another project but will get back to you on Friday.


:)
 
Great work and info as always.

I am using Klasse AIO as my one-step detail product right now. After reading this article I now know of another process for black paint if needed. Just another tool in the toolbox, thanks! :D
 
Mike, I'm curious if you used say 360 or or D151 on a black finish or a jeweling yellow pad.

While you won't get the "cut" from your harsher pad it wouldn't leave hazing or marring? Or would those pads not have enough "cut" to level and gloss up the paint to a noticeable effect?

Sorry if that's a dumb question or answered already.
 
High quality production detailing by Mike Phillips

The owner asked me if I could cleaner her up with a wash and wax. He told me it's a 2013 that spends a lot of time in the garage so it's not that bad.

That's where everyone has their own definition of the word bad.


Besides being words apart on our definitions of the word bad, in a way, it doesn't matter because if the paint is horribly scratched or lightly scratched, in order to do just one machine application of some type of polish or cleaner/wax to a vehicle this size requires a certain amount of time because you can't simply run the buffer over the paint as fast as you can walk around the car.


Pretty bad...


:)

Great job Mike! Your above statement reminded me of this picture...

Just_a_Scratch.jpeg
 
I am still shocked that people are surprised that Mike finished in 4 hours. What, you all think he is old or something? Jokes aside. When I saw Mike attacking the 1955 Firedome, I was having a hard time keeping up with him. I am not surprised at all. Also know this, he knows the products very well so that works for his advantage. I am always reading his articles and reviews due to the fact that I want to understand better about the products and not only that I want to make sure I get better at it and I am not wasting too much time with the wrong approach.
 
Mike, great job for only 4 hours worth of work.

Every time I get a call from my craigslist ad, this is the type of work requested.

I had someone call me from Palm Beach Island with a new S550 and a new M3, wanted me to wash, clay, polish, wax, vacuum, clean leather, and apply surface protectant to all interior surfaces (on both) for $200 :D

I think your blitz method will be my solution for potential clients such as this.
 
Hi Gabe,

Just real quick before I log off for the day, I read your post but because it can take a little time to use the multi-quote coding ability in vBulletin to dissect and then type out the answers, I just didn't get to it today.

Didn't want you to think I was avoiding your great questions, just had some offline projects to take care of today.

I'm offline all day tomorrow for another project but will get back to you on Friday.
:)

Mike,

No worries, take all the time you need.

-Gabe
 
Great job Mike! Your above statement reminded me of this picture...

Just_a_Scratch.jpeg

For me the captions on the photos are reversed...

Everyone else would only notice the wrecked car

I would notice the wrecked paint
 
I've found that one of the secrets to getting great results when doing a one-step to darker colors and especially clearcoated black paint is to use the softest foam pad you can get away with. But I have not tried this with a long orbit stroke polisher, only the Porter Cable style, (Griot's and Meguiar's G110v2), and the Flex 3401.

In your opinion, Mike, do you think the forced rotation of the Flex 3401 allowed you to really lean into the paint to allow for more correction, but without instilling micro-marring because of the soft pad? Furthermore, do you think that the forced oration allowed you to be quicker polishing the car over the long orbit polishers, such as the Rupes offerings? Basically, I guess I'm wondering since you have access to both, there has to be a reason why you would grab the Flex 3401, even if that reason is, "it's the closest to me." :laughing:

For the pros out there, would you advocate using a soft pad and then test spotting using different polishes to see which would allow for the most correction, while still finishing with no marring? That way, you're removing the more defects in the same time period. Almost the opposite in a sense of use the least aggressive product it's use the most aggressive product that still allows you to finish cleanly.

So, to summarize, do you think you would have been quicker using a Rupes 21, 15, or even Duetto over a Flex 3401? Does using the Flex allow more defect removal than a the long orbit polishers in this situation and would it be beneficial to use the most aggressive polish that still allows you to finish cleanly, given a soft finishing pad is used?

Thanks, Mike and happy detailing! :dblthumb2:
 
I get better results with my flex over my Griots 6". I think the slightly larger throw, combined with the forced rotation make almost any job easier.

If you haven't used a flex, IMO, you are missing out. My Griots is plenty powerful to keep rotating, but the flex is still much quicker, I'll use a 6.5" pad and work 24"x24" . It will knock out even large vehicles in 1.5-2 hours.

With aio I make my working areas much larger, but still do 3-5 section passes, usually with a white or orange pad. I'm not going for major correction, usually just punching up the clarity and gloss.
Trying to do correction with an aio is pointless, they are made for mostly cleaning duties, correction is just an awesome by product of rubbing on the paint.

I can't speak on using the longer throw rupes polishers, so I'll leave that to the pros! Hahah


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using AG Online
 
Furthermore, do you think that the forced oration allowed you to be quicker polishing the car over the long orbit polishers, such as the Rupes offerings? Basically, I guess I'm wondering since you have access to both, there has to be a reason why you would grab the Flex 3401, even if that reason is, "it's the closest to me." :laughing:

For the pros out there, would you advocate using a soft pad and then test spotting using different polishes to see which would allow for the most correction, while still finishing with no marring? That way, you're removing the more defects in the same time period. Almost the opposite in a sense of use the least aggressive product it's use the most aggressive product that still allows you to finish cleanly.

So, to summarize, do you think you would have been quicker using a Rupes 21, 15, or even Duetto over a Flex 3401? Does using the Flex allow more defect removal than a the long orbit polishers in this situation and would it be beneficial to use the most aggressive polish that still allows you to finish cleanly, given a soft finishing pad is used?
IMO, the Rupes polishers provide better correction, overall. However, if I have a quick AIO or 1-step correction, I'm reaching for the 3401 FOR SURE! Why? You don't have to take the time to worry about your technique as far as keeping the pad rotating. Just put the pad to the paint and go!!! Much more concentration is needed with the Rupes to get the best out of it, IMO.
 
In your opinion, Mike, do you think the forced rotation of the Flex 3401 allowed you to really lean into the paint to allow for more correction, but without instilling micro-marring because of the soft pad?

I can't answer for Mike but this is what he said in post #13.

...The Flex 3401 is perfect for this type of production work as the pad won't stop rotating when you start pushing hard.

...So as a way around this problem while still reducing your "time" investment, I show using,

  • A forced rotation, forced oscillation tool
  • A soft foam pad
  • A fine cut polish
 
Thanks for the compliment. I want to learn as much as I can from others on this forum. Therefore, I usually take my time and read every word when someone does a detail session, especially when it comes to Mike's articles.
When I'm reading something Mike has written I too tend to take my time, but as I stated, I still missed it...and I missed it more than once.

I too have a lot to learn and I try my best to pick up on minute details...pun intended...as it's little things like what you pointed out about Mike's process on this project that sometimes can really help alot. In this case, it saved time.

Just think how much time Mike saved by not having to set the polisher down, wipe, then pick the polisher up again. All that setting a machine down and picking it up again can add up to a lot of wasted time.

As someone considering detailing more and more as main income I am reminded how little I know. It takes time to learn products, equipment, and paint systems on the same scale as Mike and other Pro forum members. Honestly, it's quite humbling.
 
IMO, the Rupes polishers provide better correction, overall. However, if I have a quick AIO or 1-step correction, I'm reaching for the 3401 FOR SURE! Why? You don't have to take the time to worry about your technique as far as keeping the pad rotating. Just put the pad to the paint and go!!! Much more concentration is needed with the Rupes to get the best out of it, IMO.

Mike (and anyone else),

Do you believe that the Flex 3403 could do the same job as the 3401?

My understanding is that 3403 is a FORCED rotary. As many other have stated throughout the forum, a forced action circular rotary will provide a better ability to remove scratches vs a DA polisher. So why use a DA when mike would have the ability to use a rotary on his hands?

This leads to a second question. I currently work with a porter cable DA. I am looking to invest into a rotary buffer. I have been trying to find the rotary buffer on a budget. (I know mike says quality doesn't cost money it makes money) I am interested in three different models:

1. Makita
2. Dewalt
3. Flex 3403

After reading mikes write up I wanted his opinion (and others). I know mike would say get the Flex PE14, but at almost $500 thats a bit higher than budget allows right now. Maybe down the road...

So which one of the three would be best -- which one of those three would be able to do this job that mike did in this write up?

Thanks!
 
A rotary will remove defects in a hurry! On the flip side, it will leave behind a worse finish(holograms). Very rarely can u get away with a 1-step via rotary, let alone 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mr. Phillips,

First off, many thanks for the article. It has really catalyzed my concerns regarding a service I offer.

I have edited your original post to highlight the areas I think are most pertinent to my concerns and if I am reading correctly, what topics you are trying to target...which are:

A.) How to provide a good service at a good price for budget minded clients

B.) How to do it in a profitable manner

C.) How to do it without inflicting micro-marring and hazing.


You nailed it.



What I found interesting (and my thought here will speak to "C" from the list above) was that you specifically mentioned that current Cleaner Wax/ AIO technology cannot guarantee the ability to finish out to a micro-marring/ haze free finish on dark base colors.

Correct.


I'm trying to tread *lightly* here because I know there are various avenues to mis-categorize your words. But, if in fact, I have summarized correctly, then I absolutely agree with you.

It's no ones fault. It's the nature of modern clear coat paints. They scratch easily and the scratches are easy for the human eye to see.

That's the problems.



Here is my example-
Recently I completed a wash/clay/wax on an '07 Honda Accord, metallic blue. The paint was in decent shape but was in need of chemical cleaning. Swirls were present but nothing horrendous and the customer did not care for their removal. Thus the 'Clean & Shiny' project.

After a careful decon with a fine grade, Nanoskin mitt, I proceeded with a 5.5" black pad, DG501, and a traditional D/A on speed 4 with quick but steady arm speed using only the pressure of the machine.

After a final wipe of the 501, I pulled the car out to inspect in the sun. Sure enough, there was some very, very faint hologramming in one place 2ft. wide on a door.

I quickly grabbed some dedicated polish and removed the hologramming. My concern is- that could have been over the entire car and then my budget service would have been a budget buster!

Exactly. This is why it's so important to test and inspect an area before buffing out an entire car.

Had this car been a light color, chances are very good you would not have seen the hazing of the paint.

The bigger point is that when it comes to clear coat paints systems, where you're NOT actually working on the "colored" portion of the paint but the clear layer, then all of a sudden it doesn't matter what the color of the car is because you're not working on the color, you're working on the clear.

Then to extrapolate this out even further, if you're seeing induced defects on dark colors these same defects are being induced on light colors you just can't see them.



DON'T feel compelled to respond to the below... I'm just 'thinking aloud' and maybe it will spark some further discussion on the points you made.

So, I'm unsure of how to proceed on projects going forward... am I:

A.) Pushing only 1-step details on softer OEM paint systems and dark base colors?


First, the fact that clear coats scratch easily is not your fault. It's no ones fault. So keep that in mind.

Second, your customer base, (for most customers), doesn't want to and won't pay big bucks for high quality work using multiple steps. That's reality.

The above all said, something is better than nothing, that means using a one-step cleaner/wax on a neglected finish might not be the perfect process but it's better than nothing and will satisfy about 99.9% of the masses.

Doing nothing isn't good either, exterior paint needs to be maintained in some fashion.



B.) Would a red pad or 'waxing' pad have done the same regarding the hologramming?

Probably. The DG501 is a one-step cleaner/wax specifically for marine application and specifically for gel-coat surfaces.

Generally speaking, products formulated for gel-coat surfaces can be a lot more aggressive than products formulated for automotive clearcoats. While it's generally safe to use automotive products in the marine world you want to be careful when you bring marine products into the automotive world.

I know a few guys like DG501 as a one-step cleaner/wax in the auto world but like ANY product, before buffing out an entire car you should test first and then inspect.



C.) Was my technique totally wrong?

I doubt it. Just goes back to clearcoat paints are very scratch sensitive, that is they are very easy to scratch and when machine applying any type of paint care product with abrasives there's always the risk of micro-marring.


One term I use a LOT when I type is the two words, abrasive technology. While there are some guys out there, even detailing gurus of sorts, that will say,

Technique is Number #1


I 100% disagree.

When it comes to doing any type of compounding, polishing, jewelling or using a one-step product on automotive paints the number #1 important factor that will determine if your results are good or if they are bad is the abrasive technology in the bottle.

After abrasive technology I would say number #2 most important factors are technique and tools together. The reason why is because you need to have the right tool for the job and then use good technique with it.

You can use good technique with the wrong tool for the job and either not get the job done or do it a lot more slowly and in this case the word slowly means you're not being as effective or efficient as you could be with the right tool.

And the least important factor is the pad type. I"m not saying pads are not important as they are, for example you don't want to try to cut out sanding marks with a rotary buffer using a soft, gold foam jewelling pad just like you don't want to try to finish out using a rotary buffer and an aggressive wool cutting pad.

But when common sense prevails and all three of the other factors are correct, then pad type becomes the least important factor or has the least important influence in the end-results.



D.) Was the feint hologramming something that was there before prior to the wash/stripping/decon?

Holograms or hologramming is a specific word or term for the type of scratch patter inflicted by the use and misuse of a rotary buffer.

When you leave a trail pattern in the paint using a dual action polisher this is micro-marring, DA Haze or tick marks and "yes" you can leave a pattern that shows up like a trail following the path you moved the buffer over the paint. But this pattern of scratches is not what have traditionally and historically been referred to as holograms.


Small detail but just want to point this out for others that will read this into the future.


From the description of the paint condition before you buffed and then the description of what you're seeing I would say the pattern of DA Haze you're seeing was caused by you.

To troubleshoot, simple place a tape-line down the middle of the affected area and then re-polish on one side of the tape-line with a known good dedicated medium or fine cut polish and either a polish or finishing foam pad. Wipe off the residue and inspect.

IF the defects are gone the defects that remain were induced by your previous process. You can also test a product and pad combination using a black test panel.


E.) Would a hand application be more suitable on softer OEM clears and yield noticeable results?

I'd say no.

I'd say look for a product more specific to automotive application to start with. Soft paints scratch easy just like hard paints scratch easy. What separates good paint from bad paint is how well it polishes. (In my opinion).

The best paints systems are not too hard nor too soft but somewhere in-between. A good paint system is a paint system that the average person can work on and get good results.

When paint is too soft is scratches when you wipe it softly with a microfiber towel. When paint is too hard it's time consuming and difficult to abrade and level it to remove defects.

My favorite paint is the factory Ceramiclear paint systems on Mercedes-Benz. I find this paint system buffs well and resists scratching from normal day-in, day-out, wear-n-tear. The best of all worlds.

Besides that it's a case by case situation and you won't know if a paint buffs well or not till you go out into your garage and start doing some buffing.

I was surprised by how easy it was to sand and buff out my sanding marks using ONLY a Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher on the factory paint on a brand new 2014 Corvette.

How to detail a 2014 Corvette Stingray

2014_Stingray_014.jpg




When doing one-step production work, always try to use the softest foam pad you can get away with and of course, use the least aggressive product to get the job done. This is why it's a good idea to have 2-3 different one-step cleaner/waxes, even from different manufacturers so you have three products with different abrasive technology in them. Now you can do some real testing and find out which one works the best on the current car in front of you.



Mike, thanks again for the article... and while I, along with probably everyone else here, enjoy what you post, I definitely enjoy the articles that focus on budget projects.

Best regards,
-Gabe

Good questions and good feedback.

I have a multi-step show car detail coming up and a one-step production detail too, I'll try to share a little from both of them.


:)
 
Great work and info as always.

I am using Klasse AIO as my one-step detail product right now. After reading this article I now know of another process for black paint if needed. Just another tool in the toolbox, thanks! :D


One strong benefit to Klasse All-in-One is that it's non abrasive with only chemical cleaning ability. So for a very safe one-step product, using a soft foam pad, this should be a very consistent performer. Just don't promise or expect to see much in the way of reduced swirls and scratches.

And do remember to inspect and clean the face of your buffing pad often. While Klasse AIO might be non-abrasive it's possible to get foreign substances mixed into the buffing process and this could cause problems. So just clean and inspect the face of your buffing pad often.



Mike, I'm curious if you used say 360 or or D151 on a black finish or a jeweling yellow pad.

While you won't get the "cut" from your harsher pad it wouldn't leave hazing or marring?

Or would those pads not have enough "cut" to level and gloss up the paint to a noticeable effect?

Sorry if that's a dumb question or answered already.


It's a great question actually.

The answer is whether either product would leave hazing would depend on the paint itself and that means doing some testing and inspecting before buffing out the entire car.


:)
 
One strong benefit to Klasse All-in-One is that it's non abrasive with only chemical cleaning ability. So for a very safe one-step product, using a soft foam pad, this should be a very consistent performer. Just don't promise or expect to see much in the way of reduced swirls and scratches.

And do remember to inspect and clean the face of your buffing pad often. While Klasse AIO might be non-abrasive it's possible to get foreign substances mixed into the buffing process and this could cause problems. So just clean and inspect the face of your buffing pad often.
...
:)

Right, I do make it clear (to customers) that it won't remove any swirls or scratches. My other detail package is similar to what you did with this black car, where I just use a white LC pad and M205 to do a one-step polish for minor swirl/scratch removal.

I'll be sure to check my pads more often when using the Klasse. Thanks!
 
Mike,

I appreciate you 'breaking down' my scenario.

As it has been said... YOU are a gentleman and a scholar!

My best,
-Gabe
 
OK so I read your write up again Mike, and still I know it must have been rush rush to get it all done in four hours.
Did I read this right?, the Optimum Finish Polish removed 85% of those severe defects?

I just bought the Optimum and used it on the RAV4 as a one step correction and the results were stunning, then again the car was in great shape, took me most of the day but I really took my time with it.
If I read this correctly I'll have to try the Optimum next time I do a car this jacked up just to see how good the results would be.
 
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