Holograms on soft Cayenne paint

[Mike@Top End]

This week I will be doing a paint correction on a 2011 black Porsche Cayenne. The last time I tried to correct this car's paint I did a test section and all I got were holograms. Luckily this car is my dad's wife's so I get to practice on it! lol
To produce the holograms on this car, I used my Flex3401 with a 5.5" backing plate with different combinations of LC pads, orange and white, and Menz1500 and Menz4000. I will be placing an order tomorrow (Mon) and after searching the forum topic of soft black Porsche paint, my head is spinning! I have decided to try a combination of Wolfgang3.0 and one of my current LC pads(orange, white, grey, or red). Will this combination solve my hologram problem? Does anyone have another combination or any techniques to share? Any help would be appreciated.
Mike

 

[Daniel Kinder]

Hey Mike I've not worked on a Porsche Cayenne's paint but this time around, start off with the least aggressive product and technique.

I've had great success using LC's white polishing pad and a light cleaner/polish (meguiars M205) on some soft paint to remove some nasty swirls and light scratches, I just started off doing a test spot and using light pressure, slow arm speed and slower speed on my 7424 PC.

Made 3 or 4 cover passes and checked by test area, often I would have to apply more pressure and speed but on the last couple passes I would slow speed down and also lighten up on pressure or if that wasn't enough a would switch over to my light cutting pad and go over the trouble area and then switch back to the polishing pad to follow up after using the light cutting pad and check area again with my halogen and LED lights to make sure all defects were removed.

Hope I've helped some or give a couple ideals or two to help out:xyxthumbs:

 

[Evan.J]

I would use the softest pad you have with sf4000 or sf4500 got at a slow speed 2-3 max have slow arm speed with light pressure.

Since both of those products have lots of oils make sure to do an IPA wipe after your test spot to see if you have removed them.

With black Porsche paint you never need to go above a polish and a polishing pad. On new Porsches I am using either a finishing pad or a
MF finishing pad to remove any defects.

 

[Mike@Top End]

Hey Mike I've not worked on a Porsche Cayenne's paint but this time around, start off with the least aggressive product and technique.

I've had great success using LC's white polishing pad and a light cleaner/polish (meguiars M205) on some soft paint to remove some nasty swirls and light scratches, I just started off doing a test spot and using light pressure, slow arm speed and slower speed on my 7424 PC.

Made 3 or 4 cover passes and checked by test area, often I would have to apply more pressure and speed but on the last couple passes I would slow speed down and also lighten up on pressure or if that wasn't enough a would switch over to my light cutting pad and go over the trouble area and then switch back to the polishing pad to follow up after using the light cutting pad and check area again with my halogen and LED lights to make sure all defects were removed.

Hope I've helped some or give a couple ideals or two to help out:xyxthumbs:

Thanks Daniel!
I have 205 on hand so I will be trying it with my white pads and slooow down the work.

 

[Mike@Top End]

I would use the softest pad you have with sf4000 or sf4500 got at a slow speed 2-3 max have slow arm speed with light pressure.

Since both of those products have lots of oils make sure to do an IPA wipe after your test spot to see if you have removed them.

With black Porsche paint you never need to go above a polish and a polishing pad. On new Porsches I am using either a finishing pad or a
MF finishing pad to remove any defects.

Thanx Evan!
I will be adding some sf4500 to my order tomorrow.
I did not know about the the oily nature and the ipa wipe down the last time I worked on the car.
I liked your fb page. You work on some nice vehicles!
I see that you use Race Ramps. What size or sizes do you generally use?

 

[Evan.J]

Thanx Evan!
I will be adding some sf4500 to my order tomorrow.
I did not know about the the oily nature and the ipa wipe down the last time I worked on the car.
I liked your fb page. You work on some nice vehicles!
I see that you use Race Ramps. What size or sizes do you generally use?

Thanks. They are the 56" 2 piece set with the xtenders for the 56

 

[Mike@Top End]

Thanks. They are the 56" 2 piece set with the xtenders for the 56

Thanks Evan.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

This week I will be doing a paint correction on a 2011 black Porsche Cayenne. The last time I tried to correct this car's paint I did a test section and all I got were holograms.

Holograms are a specific scratch pattern caused by a rotary buffer.

With a dual action polisher what you're probably seeing is micro-marring in trails that copy the direction and pattern you moved the Flex 3401 over the panel.

I have decided to try a combination of Wolfgang3.0 and one of my current LC pads(orange, white, grey, or red).

If the paint is so soft that the Flex 3401 with SF 4000 is leaving micro-marring then like Evan recommended, get the SF 4500 and use the softest pad you can get.

In the CCS line that would be a 6.5" Gold Jewelling Pad.

CCS 6.5 inch Super Soft Gold Jewelling Pad

Will this combination solve my hologram problem?

Using probably what are the most least aggressive products on the market should solve the problem, that plus a light touch, just the weight of the machine for the last few passes over a panel on the 3-4 speed setting.

See what I wrote here,

Christmas Detail - Ferrari P4 - Move over Rudolf


Post #32. My reply to a question asked by Crazy Amos.

 

[Mike@Top End]

Holograms are a specific scratch pattern caused by a rotary buffer.

With a dual action polisher what you're probably seeing is micro-marring in trails that copy the direction and pattern you moved the Flex 3401 over the panel.





If the paint is so soft that the Flex 3401 with SF 4000 is leaving micro-marring then like Evan recommended, get the SF 4500 and use the softest pad you can get.

In the CCS line that would be a 6.5" Gold Jewelling Pad.

CCS 6.5 inch Super Soft Gold Jewelling Pad




Using probably what are the most least aggressive products on the market should solve the problem, that plus a light touch, just the weight of the machine for the last few passes over a panel on the 3-4 speed setting.

See what I wrote here,

Christmas Detail - Ferrari P4 - Move over Rudolf


Post #32. My reply to a question asked by Crazy Amos.

Thanks for the reply Mike!
I recieved and will be trying SF 4500 today with the gold pad.:buffing:
I

 

[Mike@Top End]

After a delay recieving the Cayenne I got to work last night on the paint. I first washed the paint then decontaminated with a extra fine scrub mitt (I don't recall the brand). I could see RIDS, webs and micro-marring as well as what I believe to be holograms.

For the first test area, I used an LC Gold Pad and Wolfgang 3.0 Glaze. Removed 80% of RIDS and webs, Micro-marring and "holograms" remain. On the same test area, I decided to see If I could get down to the scratches by using the higher cutting ability of the white pad with the 3.0. 99% RIDS now gone as well as webs. Micro-marring and "Holograms" remain. Onto a second test area.

On the next test area, I used SF4500 with the same pad sequence only to get the same finished finish as the previous test area.

So as to not use a more abrasive pad or maybe some SF1500 on this notoriously soft paint I decided to see if anyone have any more suggestions. This is very frustrating when a time-crunch is hanging over my head as I am sure most detailers have felt. It's the worst!

Help,

Mike

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

This week I will be doing a paint correction on a 2011 black Porsche Cayenne. The last time I tried to correct this car's paint I did a test section and all I got were holograms.

To produce the holograms on this car, I used my Flex3401 with a 5.5" backing plate with different combinations of LC pads, orange and white, and Menz1500 and Menz4000.

To recap, if you're using a Flex 3401 then the scratch pattern you're seeing is not holograms but micro-marring.

Micro-marring is the scratch pattern caused by a polisher that oscillates a pad.

Micro-marring is also caused by the abrasives and the pad as they work against the paint.

You're using some of the best product known to the car detailing industry so I don't think the products and the pads are the problem.

1. For the first test area, I used an LC Gold Pad and Wolfgang 3.0 Glaze. Removed 80% of RIDS and webs, Micro-marring and "holograms" remain.


2. On the same test area, I decided to see If I could get down to the scratches by using the higher cutting ability of the white pad with the 3.0. 99% RIDS now gone as well as webs. Micro-marring and "Holograms" remain. Onto a second test area.

3. On the next test area, I used SF4500 with the same pad sequence only to get the same finished finish as the previous test area.

So even after using Menzerna SF 4500 and a Lake Country gold jeweling pad you're still seeing micro-marring in the paint?

That tells me the paint is very soft and also very scratch-sensitive which is also what a lot of other people have experienced.

My guess is also the micro-marring, which is a scratch pattern, my guess is the depth of this scratch-pattern is very shallow.


Also confirm, is the only time you're seeing the micro-marring after you chemically strip the paint and then inspect with bright light?

 

[lawrenceSA]

I am just thinking out loud here, so please don't shoot me but....

a) are you sure the 'holograms' you are referring to are being caused by you and are not already in the paint

b) if they are already in the paint and your gentle polishing is not removing them, is it not possible that someone else has polished the car before you using a very aggressive combo (for that paint) and has thus created very deep holograms - deeper than what the rest of the damage is?

Are you able to post any pics that show the 'holograms' so that we can see if it is possibly existing stuff (if they are true holograms someone must have had at it with a rotary) and if it is not holograms but rather micro-marring (as eluded to) then maybe it is not from the pads/product but maybe from:

a) toweling marks due to the extremely scratch sensitive nature of the paint or

b) marring being caused when doing an IPA (or similar) type wipe down to strip the paint?

:dunno:

 

[Mike@Top End]

To recap, if you're using a Flex 3401 then the scratch pattern you're seeing is not holograms but micro-marring.

Micro-marring is the scratch pattern caused by a polisher that oscillates a pad.

Micro-marring is also caused by the abrasives and the pad as they work against the paint.

You're using some of the best product known to the car detailing industry so I don't think the products and the pads are the problem.






So even after using Menzerna SF 4500 and a Lake Country gold jeweling pad you're still seeing micro-marring in the paint?

That tells me the paint is very soft and also very scratch-sensitive which is also what a lot of other people have experienced.

My guess is also the micro-marring, which is a scratch pattern, my guess is the depth of this scratch-pattern is very shallow.


Also confirm, is the only time you're seeing the micro-marring after you chemically strip the paint and then inspect with bright light?

I do remember you stating that a DA does not make holograms(hence my quote marks around hologram) but I am wondering if someone else wheeled the car. I cannot confirm this for the owner is indisposed.

I did not chemically strip the paint because I did not feel it necessary given that the marring is plain to see with my bright light without stripping.

I know what you mean about having the best product in the world at my disposal. That's what makes all this all the more frustrating.

Mike

I did indeed see the marring after the SF4500 and Gold Pad.

 

[Mike@Top End]

I am just thinking out loud here, so please don't shoot me but....

a) are you sure the 'holograms' you are referring to are being caused by you and are not already in the paint

b) if they are already in the paint and your gentle polishing is not removing them, is it not possible that someone else has polished the car before you using a very aggressive combo (for that paint) and has thus created very deep holograms - deeper than what the rest of the damage is?

Are you able to post any pics that show the 'holograms' so that we can see if it is possibly existing stuff (if they are true holograms someone must have had at it with a rotary) and if it is not holograms but rather micro-marring (as eluded to) then maybe it is not from the pads/product but maybe from:

a) toweling marks due to the extremely scratch sensitive nature of the paint or

b) marring being caused when doing an IPA (or similar) type wipe down to strip the paint?

:dunno:

Hi Lawrence!

I am beginning to think that the holograms or marring were put there by someone else. Bad inspection on my part. Lesson learned!

I will try to upload some pics. I do not have a very good history trying to post photos to this forum.

I did produce some towel scratches but I could see them form as I wiped at different intensities.

I did not do an IPA wipe down for the marring is easy to see after removing the polish and the aid of a bright light.


Mike

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I am wondering if someone else wheeled the car. I cannot confirm this for the owner is indisposed.

With the paint being as soft as you've discovered, this means had anyone buffed this Porsche out before you using a rotary buffer and left true holograms in the paint, being soft paint, removal should be easy. You're basically removing one set of scratches and replacing them with another set of scratches.


What you need to do is verify there are or are not holograms in the paint to start with by looking at a section of paint in bright overhead sun like I did here,

Pictures: Detailing Classes at Autogeek - May 2014

Holograms

The lines visible in the paint as revealed by bright overhead sun show that the paint on this car has holograms.

The holograms are faint, that is hard to see and without the bright overhead sunlight chances are very good most people would never see them at all.

But I have a trained eye and full overhead bright sunlight.

To make sure everyone understands it's the lines and not the swirls I'm referring to, I've drawn an outline around the holograms using the same picture as seen above.

Bright sunlight directly overhead works best for faint or shallow holograms otherwise they can be hard to detect.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike@Top End][/B]

I did indeed see the marring after the SF4500 and Gold Pad.

I'd say that's a pretty good indicator of very soft paint. SF 4500 and a gold jewelling pad on a medium speed setting with no to low downward pressure works on just about any paint system.

If this paint system is marring from this combination then it's not about you or the products it's about crazy soft paint.

This is why I say that when it comes to creating a 100% hologram free finish using only a rotary buffer it's not always about the person... it can be an issue with the paint.


If it were me, I'll try one of two things, try re-polishing using a weaker polisher like I referenced in my comments in my Ferrari thread. For example, try using a Porter Cable instead of the Flex 3401 and a soft foam finishing pad.

Either way, buffing with the Flex 3401 or a simple dual action polisher like the PC, after you've went around the car sealer up and stick a fork in her and call it done.

The wax, sealant and even coating should mask any marring issues to get the paint to the point where the owner will think you painted her Porsche. It's not your fault the paint is super soft.

One thing I like to do with really soft paints is use a real slick or slippery product for the LSP assuming you're not going to coat it. Products like, Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant, Meguiar's M20, Menzerna Power Lock etc. These types of products make the paint very slippery while also masking any fine marring.

My guess is the owner wont' be able to take care of the finish no matter how perfect you get it unless you are by de-facto the new primary car washer and detailer of family cars.

Just to ask... you do all the normal things right? Like clean your pad often? Use quality microfiber towels to wipe residue off? I'm sure you do but these are normal things to ask about when someone is running into problems.


You're experience is one of the reasons I wrote this article,

"Black is not a color, it's a full time job"

 

[Hoytman]

This is a great photo, Mike. Honestly, I've always assumed that even lines that faint were indeed caused by a rotary and covered by a product(at least for a short time), but this is the first time I can say I've ever seen a photo showing them this faint highlighting them for people to see.

I'd say that's a pretty good indicator of very soft paint. SF 4500 and a gold jewelling pad on a medium speed setting with no to low downward pressure works on just about any paint system.

If this paint system is marring from this combination then it's not about you or the products it's about crazy soft paint.

This is why I say that when it comes to creating a 100% hologram free finish using only a rotary buffer it's not always about the person... it can be an issue with the paint.


If it were me, I'll try one of two things, try re-polishing using a weaker polisher like I referenced in my comments in my Ferrari thread. For example, try using a Porter Cable instead of the Flex 3401 and a soft foam finishing pad.

Either way, buffing with the Flex 3401 or a simple dual action polisher like the PC, after you've went around the car sealer up and stick a fork in her and call it done.

The wax, sealant and even coating should mask any marring issues to get the paint to the point where the owner will think you painted her Porsche. It's not your fault the paint is super soft.

One thing I like to do with really soft paints is use a real slick or slippery product for the LSP assuming you're not going to coat it. Products like, Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant, Meguiar's M20, Menzerna Power Lock etc. These types of products make the paint very slippery while also masking any fine marring.

My guess is the owner wont' be able to take care of the finish no matter how perfect you get it unless you are by de-facto the new primary car washer and detailer of family cars.

Just to ask... you do all the normal things right? Like clean your pad often? Use quality microfiber towels to wipe residue off? I'm sure you do but these are normal things to ask about when someone is running into problems.


You're experience is one of the reasons I wrote this article,

"Black is not a color, it's a full time job"

Assuming his technique is correct, wouldn't it be a good thing to explain the effort taken to take the paint to it's maximum potential and then show them this thread and explain to them that because the paint is so soft that it'll never be perfect, and to try and get them to let you maintain it for them? Just wondering if this would be a good idea.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

This is a great photo, Mike. Honestly, I've always assumed that even lines that faint were indeed caused by a rotary and covered by a product(at least for a short time), but this is the first time I can say I've ever seen a photo showing them this faint highlighting them for people to see.

Thanks Bill.

And just to note again, sometime the only way to see holograms this faint is with bright overhead sun shining right down on the panel.

And if you have a light colored car or a light colored metallic finish? You probably won't see them even if they are present.

Assuming his technique is correct, wouldn't it be a good thing to explain the effort taken to take the paint to it's maximum potential and then show them this thread and explain to them that because the paint is so soft that it'll never be perfect, and to try and get them to let you maintain it for them?

Just wondering if this would be a good idea.

It would be the best idea or best way to maintain the paint after the OP does his best to polish IF it's important to the owner and IF there's some type of reward for the OP.


Most people don't know the difference between a squirrel and a swirl and if the owner falls into this category then I'd slap a sealant on it and then stick a fork in it and call it done.