How many layers?

jayhkr

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So how many layers does everyone use of both sealants and waxes? I just got done puting a layer of M21 on my truck and am debating if I want to put another layer on before I put 1-2 layers of Natty's Blue on after. As some of you may know, after I got done doing my very first detail on my truck I found out that I have the dreaded orange peel. So, how worth it would it be to put 2 layers of sealant followed by 2 layers of wax? Everything is applied via a DA polisher.
 
Normally i use 2 coats of sealant and depending on the wax and customer concerns 2 to 3 coats of wax.
 
Anything over 2 coats is a waste as you start to loose the layer of thickness when you reach the third coat. This was proven in a lab test on another forum.
 
How long do you all wait in between wax coats? I know you're suppose to wait 12+ hours between sealant, but havn't heard anything about wax.
 
depends on the wax i am using but most time i wait about an hour maybe 2 on really humid days.
 
Well atm I have Natty's Blue, I'll have to read the directions to see if it says anything about it. 2 hours would be a good as that'll give me time to relax!
 
This is from a thread Mike posted in over on MOL a couple of years ago:

[T]wo things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.


Layerable waxes

A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.

Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.

There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.


The Law of Diminishing Returns
(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)

While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.


That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer". If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:

2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another.

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.

You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build, and this is key; without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. of the finish

This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with. If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,

Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)

Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.


As I previously wrote...


Question? Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application?

In a word: Possibly

Generally speaking, when trying to take your car's finish to its maximum potential for clarity, gloss, shine and depth of color, there comes a point, or a plateau, that you will reach whereupon additional applications of either polish or wax will not increase the results of any of those categories. Of course, you are more apt to reach this plateau if your skill level is high and if the quality of your products is also very high.

These assumptions also assume that the surface in question is on

* * A brand new car
* A car with a brand new paint job
* An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition
* An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition

If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.

After time goes by and this plateau you have previously reached begins to diminish, you can restore the paint to it's maximum potential again, quickly and easily by simply applying a new coat of the right wax or polish. This maintenance procedure will only act to restore the finish back to it's maximum potential and shouldn't be positioned, or confused with making your surface deeper, darker, shinier, etc. than it's maximum potential.

Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.

Special Note: Ideas suggesting that repeated applications of a product will continue to increase optic clarity and gloss and protection are misleading you and your own common sense should enable you to understand that a finish, whether black, red, single-stage, clear coat, etc. has a limit to how perfect it can become. 100% of 100 is 100

I would challenge anyone to demonstrate a visual improvement on black paint, (either single stage or clear coated), with a fourth application of any product.
 
I keep reading two layers of sealant is good enough, with the second layer just to fill in any missed areas during the first application. I guess the same holds true with wax unless it's proven a third layer of your product does indeed make a difference, otherwise I wouldn't waste the time or effort.
 
2 layers each it is. I'll put the second layer of polish on this afternoon and tomorrow I'll put the 2 layers of Natty's Blue on! Thanks for all the help!
 
2 layers each it is. I'll put the second layer of polish on this afternoon and tomorrow I'll put the 2 layers of Natty's Blue on! Thanks for all the help!

I would stick with 1 of each.
 
I do 2 coats to ensure I have nice even coverage and did not miss anything
 
Well I did 1 coat of polish and 1 coat of wax, however I may add another layer in a few days before the rain comes in again. Just gives me another excuss to wash the truck again with "THE YETI!!"
 
When you get to three layers the law of decreasing returns comes into play.
 
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