I want wax that sheets water!

dschia said:
This is a side by side demonstration between beading and sheeting starting at 30s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6zim2_mTT4 I have been detailing full time day in day out for 8 years and probably speak to at least 1000 customers if not more. I have to say that I have given up on trying to convince customer that some coating or products that bead poorly are actually good if not better than some of the super 'beader'. There are time when I try to convince, the customer actually think you are trying to scam them.
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I believe that Zack McGovern wrote a whole article on this forum talking about just such a thing, where beading or lack of is not indicative of protection not being present. With that said, on the same hand, it's hard to stop a customer from driving through an fully automated car-wash after they just paid for for full-paint correction, including a finishing sealant.

I just had a custy tell me how great his car looked after he drove it through a car-wash... this was two days after getting BOSS Fast Correcting Cream & BOSS Finishing Sealant. LOL....
 
RE: Beading/Beads
It is one particular way of showing that
an LSP's Chemists/formulators have added
"beading-ingredients" to that LSP.

Just to note:
They, instead, could have just as easily
added "sheeting ingredients" to the LSP;
but, due to the forces that drive the
LSP-market: their 'Boss(es)' probably
didn't want them to do so at this moment
in time.


Bob
 
dschia said:
This is a side by side demonstration between beading and sheeting starting at 30s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6zim2_mTT4 I have been detailing full time day in day out for 8 years and probably speak to at least 1000 customers if not more. I have to say that I have given up on trying to convince customer that some coating or products that bead poorly are actually good if not better than some of the super 'beader'. There are time when I try to convince, the customer actually think you are trying to scam them.
Click to expand...

Sorry but that is not beading and sheeting. That is beading and less beading.

I know that I am flogging a dead horse with this but everything posted so far is beading. If you spray a water mist onto the surface you will see beads. That is beading! Hydrophobic surface gives beads. The only difference in anything posted has been how hydrophobic it is. If it is too hydrophobic, the water breaks up rather than looking like a sheet. This being said, sheeting should be when a water mist gives a flat sheet - a hydrophillic surface. But there is nothing out there that achieve this.

This is fundamentally a debate on how hydrophobic you guys want your surface to be. The use of the term 'sheeting' is inaccurate or inappropriate as the 'sheeting' products you are all discussing will still bead. A hydrophillic 'sheeting' will never bead, under any application conditions.
 
PiPUK said:
Sorry but that is not beading and sheeting. That is beading and less beading.

I know that I am flogging a dead horse with this but everything posted so far is beading. If you spray a water mist onto the surface you will see beads. That is beading! Hydrophobic surface gives beads. The only difference in anything posted has been how hydrophobic it is. If it is too hydrophobic, the water breaks up rather than looking like a sheet. This being said, sheeting should be when a water mist gives a flat sheet - a hydrophillic surface. But there is nothing out there that achieve this.

This is fundamentally a debate on how hydrophobic you guys want your surface to be. The use of the term 'sheeting' is inaccurate or inappropriate as the 'sheeting' products you are all discussing will still bead. A hydrophillic 'sheeting' will never bead, under any application conditions.
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Agree 100%. Bravo.

There is just hydrophobic and less hydrophobic. There is no super hydrophobic beading LSP and super hydrophobic sheeting LSP.

If you want to see a sheet of water, polish all the wax off your hood and throw a bunch of dirt on it.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
PiPUK said:
Sorry but that is not beading and sheeting. That is beading and less beading.

I know that I am flogging a dead horse with this but everything posted so far is beading. If you spray a water mist onto the surface you will see beads. That is beading! Hydrophobic surface gives beads. The only difference in anything posted has been how hydrophobic it is. If it is too hydrophobic, the water breaks up rather than looking like a sheet. This being said, sheeting should be when a water mist gives a flat sheet - a hydrophillic surface. But there is nothing out there that achieve this.

This is fundamentally a debate on how hydrophobic you guys want your surface to be. The use of the term 'sheeting' is inaccurate or inappropriate as the 'sheeting' products you are all discussing will still bead. A hydrophillic 'sheeting' will never bead, under any application conditions.
Click to expand...

Interesting point and it make sense regarding the definition of 'sheeting'. I have always enjoyed reading and learning the know why from your posts. 1 observance between the 2 products however is the slickness. The more hydrophobic product tend to feel less slick so my first thought would be to assume that more contaminates will stay on the panel than the other. If all factors remain the same except the slickness, isnt the more hydrophobic product worst off than the other- counter intuitive than the general public perception that more bead is good.
 
So are they saying a high beading wax is not as good as one that doesn't bead. The Collinite 845 beads like crazy and looks like water flows off.
 
dschia said:
Interesting point and it make sense regarding the definition of 'sheeting'. I have always enjoyed reading and learning the know why from your posts. 1 observance between the 2 products however is the slickness. The more hydrophobic product tend to feel less slick so my first thought would be to assume that more contaminates will stay on the panel than the other. If all factors remain the same except the slickness, isnt the more hydrophobic product worst off than the other- counter intuitive than the general public perception that more bead is good.
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There are a bunch of factors which mean that this may or may not be the case. For example, a very large number of sealant type products are excellent at repelling water but are in fact oleophillic. What this means is they repel water but oils stick. If you were to spray oil onto the paint, it would stick really well and give a true 'sheet'. In laymans terms that means that the finish repels water and attracts anything oily/greasy (i.e. soiling). There are lots of really hydrophobic coatings which claim to be self cleaning but are in fact very inclined to contamination with oily soiling (more so than without the product) and are also very hard to clean (hydrophobic - remember - water is repelled so it has a hard time wetting the soiling!). In an ideal world, you want a finish which is oleophobic (repels oils) yet hydrophillic (water sticks - sheets). This means that oils don't stick well and any which do are easily removed because water is attracted to the surface and can easily wet the oily soils. I do not believe such a thing exists! For now, a bit of oleophobicity is a good start - but when did you last see a detailing brand mention the term (never?!)?

Oh - slickness/roughness... whole other area again!
 
As mentioned above, Sonax Polymer Net Shield and Brilliant Shine Detailer are about the most hydrophobic, tightest beading, fastest "sheeting" products you can get. FK1000P is way up there in the short term as well as CarPro Reload, Soft99 Fusso, Collinite 476s/915/845, Ice Paste Wax, etc. So I categorize those as your beading LSP's, they (along with others) produce the tightest beads in the short term against some other products.

Your less hydrophobic LSP's are what I would categorize as the sheeting types. There's confusion about the terms because people have different definitions for them and every wax/sealant is going to bead water up, but the less hydrophobic behavior of some makes it easier for that connected sheet of water to form across the panels when spraying or flooding. Because of this, the beading isn't going to be as tight and this is why I regard them as sheeting products. Tons are like this, the ones I would highlight are the WOWA sealants like Opti-Seal, Wolfgang Liquid Seal, and Blackfire Crystal Seal when used by themselves and not as toppers. Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant and Blackfire Wet Diamond Sealant are slightly more hydrophobic than those WOWA types but they won't give you that extreme aggressive beading like the beading types above. Meguiar's Gold Class & Paint Protect, Dodo Juice Red Mist Detailer, etc. If they're durable like Wolfgang and Blackfire full sealants for example, then you're going to be able to easily tell over the months that they've survived on the paint based on how consistent the water sheets off when you flood the paint after washing.

So when you ask for a wax that doesn't bead and instead sheets, I would direct you to try out something like Crystal/Liquid/Opti Seal while mentioning that you're still going to see a lot of beading, it comes with the territory. If you want something that sheets the fastest and beads the most aggressively, I'd send you straight to Sonax and tell you to enjoy the crazy bead dance!
 
Loach--on another note, how does PNS hold up to bird bombs?? I'm spoiled with the protection FL1000p offers from the bird bombs, but want to give PNS a try if it offers good protection in this area.
 
Loach said:
As mentioned above, Sonax Polymer Net Shield and Brilliant Shine Detailer are about the most hydrophobic, tightest beading, fastest "sheeting" products you can get. FK1000P is way up there in the short term as well as CarPro Reload, Soft99 Fusso, Collinite 476s/915/845, Ice Paste Wax, etc. So I categorize those as your beading LSP's, they (along with others) produce the tightest beads in the short term against some other products.

Your less hydrophobic LSP's are what I would categorize as the sheeting types. There's confusion about the terms because people have different definitions for them and every wax/sealant is going to bead water up, but the less hydrophobic behavior of some makes it easier for that connected sheet of water to form across the panels when spraying or flooding. Because of this, the beading isn't going to be as tight and this is why I regard them as sheeting products. Tons are like this, the ones I would highlight are the WOWA sealants like Opti-Seal, Wolfgang Liquid Seal, and Blackfire Crystal Seal when used by themselves and not as toppers. Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant and Blackfire Wet Diamond Sealant are slightly more hydrophobic than those WOWA types but they won't give you that extreme aggressive beading like the beading types above. Meguiar's Gold Class & Paint Protect, Dodo Juice Red Mist Detailer, etc. If they're durable like Wolfgang and Blackfire full sealants for example, then you're going to be able to easily tell over the months that they've survived on the paint based on how consistent the water sheets off when you flood the paint after washing.

So when you ask for a wax that doesn't bead and instead sheets, I would direct you to try out something like Crystal/Liquid/Opti Seal while mentioning that you're still going to see a lot of beading, it comes with the territory. If you want something that sheets the fastest and beads the most aggressively, I'd send you straight to Sonax and tell you to enjoy the crazy bead dance!
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I ended up going with the Sonax. It makes drying the car sooo much easier. Literally cuts drying time in half.
 
ski2 said:
Loach--on another note, how does PNS hold up to bird bombs?? I'm spoiled with the protection FL1000p offers from the bird bombs, but want to give PNS a try if it offers good protection in this area.
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I got hit with bird bombs on a few occasions on the silver test car with PNS on the hood and I didn't notice any etching after washing. But I'm washing test spots often, so no contamination has a lot of time to set up in one spot. The real test for etching here in Florida is love bug season, and when they pop up again both PNS and FK1000p are going head to head to see how they can handle those devils on the front of the blue test car. The blue test car already has tons of deep etchings from love bugs that happened before I got my hands on the paintwork.

Now is the time to grab Polymer Net Shield if you're on the fence. Autogeek has the new 340ml size on sale for $25 and the SONAX20 code should take an additional 20% off, if it doesn't work in the cart I'd send one of the guys an e-mail to see if they will honor it.

AutoApollo said:
I ended up going with the Sonax. It makes drying the car sooo much easier. Literally cuts drying time in half.
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I agree, seems to me that the more hydrophobic the surface of the paint is, the more those water beads want to be absorbed into the drying towel which also seems to help in leaving less water streaks behind.
 
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