Is there a true 3" DA backing plate?

alko said:
Who is Kevin Brown?
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  • Pro Detailer
  • Detailing Instructor
  • Excellent Writer
  • One of the most knowledgeable detailers in the online detailing world
  • All around good guy...
I've known Kevin since the late 1990's, not sure when we first worked together but we've been friends ever since. His word is as good as gold.

Kevin coordinated two NXTi classes for wetsanding, cutting and buffing back in 2004 and 2005 where there were a number of Instructors including Kevin Brown, Mike Pennington, Jason Rose, Jeff Brown, Jesse Castio from Mirka Abrasives and myself. There were a few other Instructors but I can't place there name at this moment, I think Rod Kraft was one of the Instructors for the second class but not the first, he's also a top notch detailer and Instructor. Joe Fernandez aka Superior Shine attended both classes and took these photos... (Thanks Joe)


Hard to believe this was 7 years ago... seems like only yesterday...


Photo Courtesy of MeguiarsOnline

Here's Kevin watching a student practice with a rotary buffer, note the rotary buffer has the Kickstand Adjustable Handle.
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This is Mike Pennington teaching rotary buffer techniques
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Here's Jason Rose evaluating technique during the classroom portion
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Here's Kevin and myself covering hand sanding techniques...
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This is me working with a student on rotary buffer technique...
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Most really good detailing instructors started out first as detailers, some gravitate towards writing about the topic and Kevin is famous for his writing skills in that he can take any topic and explain it using a keyboard so even a Newbie can understand.


alko said:
Who is Kevin Brown?
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Does that answer your question?


:xyxthumbs:
 
Mike, now you confused me...I bought some 3" MF DA pads to use with my Griot's 3" for tight spots (haven't yet). Because of this thread I looked and as noted the GG BP (LC?) is 2-7/8" which is a bit smaller than the pads which are 3-5/16. The black BP you have in the picture is this one Meguiars Unigrit 3 Inch Professional Backing Plate and Adaptor Kit, backing plate with adapters, meguiars backup pad ? Is that the one you recommend, or are you saying that the one that comes with the GG was fine, also?
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Mike, now you confused me...I bought some 3" MF DA pads to use with my Griot's 3" for tight spots (haven't yet). Because of this thread I looked and as noted the GG BP (LC?) is 2-7/8" which is a bit smaller than the pads which are 3-5/16. The black BP you have in the picture is this one Meguiars Unigrit 3 Inch Professional Backing Plate and Adaptor Kit, backing plate with adapters, meguiars backup pad ? Is that the one you recommend, or are you saying that the one that comes with the GG was fine, also?
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Are you positive the BP plate that comes with the Griot's 3" is 2 7/8"? I have the Meg's 3" that you provided a link for, and it's 2 7/8" as well. It's perfect to use with the 3" unigrit discs, but too small for the 3" MF pads, IMO. I just bought a BP that measures 3 3/8" that's perfect for the MF pads(post #11).
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Mike, now you confused me...
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Who me? Probably not the first time... :D

Setec Astronomy said:
I bought some 3" MF DA pads to use with my Griot's 3" for tight spots (haven't yet).

Because of this thread I looked and as noted the GG BP (LC?) is 2-7/8" which is a bit smaller than the pads which are 3-5/16. The black BP you have in the picture is this one Meguiars Unigrit 3 Inch Professional Backing Plate and Adaptor Kit, backing plate with adapters, meguiars backup pad ?


Is that the one you recommend, or are you saying that the one that comes with the GG was fine, also?
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The backing plate that comes with the Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher is the same diameter as the Meguiar's 3" backing plate for their Unigrit sanding system and now their Microfiber pad system, that is they both measure 2 7/8 inches.

In my opinion the both work fine.


There are some that will make the argument that in a perfect world for perfect and equal pressure to be applied over the entire face of the microfiber pads that you will want a backing plate that fits the complete diameter of the microfiber pads hook-n-loop backing material.

I would agree that a backing plate that fits perfectly would ensure uniform pressure over the entire face of the microfiber pads but I would als say that using the 2 7/8" backing plates I'm still going to get the job done and get great results as long as I use good technique with the right products.

Meguiar's 3" microfiber pads = 3 5/16" diameter

A backing plate with a 2 7/8" diameter leaves a little more that 3/16" of the outer edge of the microfiber pad not covered with backing plate pressure. For some people this is a deal breaker for others it's a safety margin.


:xyxthumbs:
 
Here's a few pictures to show fitment...


Here's the 3" Meguiar's Microfiber Cutting Disc on the stock Griot's Garage 2 7/8" backing plate that comes with the Griot's 3" Mini Polisher

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The hook-n-loop not covered with backing plate measures around 3/16" to 1/4"

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This provides some give or cushion for the microfiber/foam/hook-n-loop to flex back toward the tool plus provides a measure of safety margin between the working face of the pad and the edge of the backing plate.

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This is the Meguiar's backing plate on a 3" Microfiber Cutting Disc
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This is the Griot's Garage backing plate on a 3" Microfiber Cutting Disc - Same diameter as the Meguiar's backing plate.
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Here's the Griot's backing plate attached to a Meguiar's 3" Interface pad and attached to the interface pad is a S3F3000 Unigrit Finishing Disc.
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Here's the Meguiar's backing plate attached to a Meguiar's 3" Interface pad and attached to the interface pad is a S3F3000 Unigrit Finishing Disc.
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Hope that helps to show sizes and fitment...

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I believe Mirka offers a 3 3/8" backing plate but I have a few e-mails out to suppliers to see what's available.

:)
 
Thanks Mike, I couldn't tell from your first pics whether that sanding BP was the same size as the yellow one, but now I see it is.
 
OK Mike, this brings up another interesting point. The S3BP has holes in it, presumably this is for dust collection when sanding (though none of the Unigrit discs have holes in them) but wouldn't they also provide the function of cooling the pad/microfiber disc while working?

And if in fact that does provide an important cooling function, how detrimental do you think the lack of those "cooling vents" in the GG or Mirka backing plates would be to the longevity of the pad over time?
 
FWIW, I had a 3" MF disc separate(adhesive) while using the Meg's 3" backing plate.
 
There are a few ways to get a force a microfiber pad to fail. First is due to excessive pressure and heat. Second is due to an incorrect backing plate.

Microfiber pads have much greater surface area than a normal foam pad. This can cause the pad to stick to the paint and stop the machine's stroke. Something has to give. The Meg's backing plates are made with micro-hook velcro. The smaller hook allows the pad to give if pushed too hard. With a standard hook pad, the velcro is firmly grasped. When pushed to the limit, the velcro will delaminate.

I wish more people would take the backing plate velcro issue seriously. A large majority of MF pad failures could have easily been prevented.

And yes, I have had two 3" pads fail due to unknown reasons. They both failed within three minutes of use on speed 3 on a 7336. It just goes to show that bad pads do occasionally show up.
 
I've been using the 6" MF pads with the Flex 3401 and have never had a problem with separation. However, when using Griot's 6" with the S3BP, 3" MF pads and speed 4, I had 2 pads separate. I was only using moderate pressure. The pads had only been used a couple of times. Megs sent me 2 new ones.
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
OK Mike, this brings up another interesting point. The S3BP has holes in it, presumably this is for dust collection when sanding (though none of the Unigrit discs have holes in them) but wouldn't they also provide the function of cooling the pad/microfiber disc while working?
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Could be the backing plate was borrowed from an existing system because it was the correct dimensions and the holes were for a purpose in the other system? Could be they don't have a great effect either negative or positive? This is what's so great about discussion forums, people will dissect a topic until a forum consensus is arrived at and then move on to the next topic.

Shiny Lil Detlr said:
And if in fact that does provide an important cooling function, how detrimental do you think the lack of those "cooling vents" in the GG or Mirka backing plates would be to the longevity of the pad over time?
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If in fact the holes in the Meguiar's backing plate serve a positive function, then to use a backing plate without the holes would likely have a negative function, to what degree I don't know nor do I give it that much thought. I put the sanding disc on and sand and as I go through sanding or finishing discs I remove the worn disc and put on a fresh disc. It could be to decrease weight? Maybe it's a design function for flexibility or strength? Small changes can have huge effects.

The interface pads don't seem to like the pressure and heat over time but I've found most buffing pads, (no matter the type or manufacture), interface pads and backing plates, none of these like pressure over time, as that creates heat and none of the above tend to like heat, which is a byproduct of pressure over time.


To positing the topic in extremes, which is what detailing discussion forums are famous for, heat is either good for a product and process or it's bad for a product and process. I think we all know the answer to the choice between these two extremes.

I also find that since I started posting to the "Internet" in 1994, way before vBulletin was invented, that online detailing enthusiasts tend to push all products to their limit and even past their limits. Kind of the norm for online enthusiasts detailers and pro detailers, wouldn't you agree?

So when I read of the adhesive failing on a backing plate, interface pad or any type of buffing pad, I don't automatically believe it's a faulty product, I think it's entirely possible the product was pushed to extremes beyond the limits of current technology by the the person using the product. Besides that... nothing lasts forever.

If a pad, backing plate or interface does fail for any reason, then this is great feedback for the manufacture. and I encourage everyone to send their feedback to manufactures as I know they love to hear from their customers.

How's that?


:)
 
***Update***

I checked with Jason Rose who is the Product Manager for Meguiar's Professional Line and he confirmed the holes are for cooling.

Specifically, more heat is generated per square inch on a smaller backing plate compared to a larger backing plate when all other factors are kept the same. The holes act to increase exposed surface area of the backing plate for increased heat transfer to the air via conduction.

The reason the current Meguiar's backing plate has a smaller outside diameter than the outside diameter of the 3" Microfiber Discs is a safety margin to ensure the outside edge of the backing plate doesn't contact any painted or plastic surfaces potentially scaring or marring the finish.


From my above post,

Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Maybe it's a design function for cooling, flexibility or strength? Small changes can have huge effects.
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My comment on cooling was just a guess but seemed like one of a few natural reasons for holes in a backing plate besides dust collection in the machine dry sanding industries.


Forum consensus reached yet?


:laughing:
 
Rei86 said:
I still don't get this statement and the poster has yet to come back in here and explain.
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as mike has already said, "A backing plate with a 2 7/8" diameter leaves a little more that 3/16" of the outer edge of the microfiber pad not covered with backing plate pressure. For some people this is a deal breaker for others it's a safety margin."

if you are buffing an area with a 90 degree panel adjacent to it, if the backplate hits the other panel, it will leave some nasty marks......
 
IMO, the 3" Meg's backing plate is just too small for the already small 3" MF pad. The surface area is obviously limited with such a small pad, generally speaking, so, I feel every bit of it needs to be supported. On the flip-side, yes, there's zero margin for error with the Mirka backing plate, but I think it will give better results. I'll just have to be very careful. :) I'll report back after I use it. FWIW, with a 5.5" pad, you an get away with a 1/2" smaller backing plate because the surface area being polished is much larger. JMO.
 
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