LSP stripping

[FUNX650]

what about finish kare soil and coating remover

Since this is "Step#1" and is a highly alkaline product...Then:

It would probably be best to continue on with the entire FinishKare Decontamination System's regimen
in order to not possibly cause any harm to the vehicle's paint system...or any Human-beings...IMHO.
(I feel the same way towards Valugard's ABC decontamination system, as well.)


BTW:
-I also still like to use polishes to clean paint.
-Even AIO paint cleaners!
-(And 3M Imperial Hand Glaze)

There are, indeed, so many ways/products to clean paint!!

I would not use anything more than 50% IPA just to be safe.

Would you please explain how you believe a ~50% IPA solution (I'll assume using distilled water)
will be safer than, say: a ~60-75% IPA solution? Thanks.

NOTE:
When I happenstance to use an IPA-solution/"Diluted"-CarPro's-Eraser...
I follow the guidelines proffered by several Chemists (including those from Meguiar's and Optimum Polymer Technologies)...
That being:
I know I won't use above ~15% IPA solution on vehicles' paint....Especially if it's a BC/CC paint system.

Why take the chance?!?!




Bob

 

[PiPUK]

definitely could be. Hopefully he returns to us with some more info on paint cleaners.

The point I was making was that it is very easy to mask an LSP with surfactants which make it appear as though the LSP has been removed. I could not be so generic with paint cleansers because they are not all equal. More than that, it will depend upon application method (e.g. apply with machine and a cleanser will be a whole lot more effective).

I would not use anything more than 50% IPA just to be safe.

I know Mike has his beliefs about IPA concentration but I have never had any issue. Ive immersed painted test strips in IPA for weeks on end without any damage. That said, I could not rule out a temporary softening effect but, since I am not doing any kind of polishing, this is not something which is a concern to me.

Again, the take home message is that surfactants stick. Just because you ran your hose over a surface and it does not bead anymore, does not mean that your LSP is removed.

 

[ihaveacamaro]

The point I was making was that it is very easy to mask an LSP with surfactants which make it appear as though the LSP has been removed. I could not be so generic with paint cleansers because they are not all equal. More than that, it will depend upon application method (e.g. apply with machine and a cleanser will be a whole lot more effective).



I know Mike has his beliefs about IPA concentration but I have never had any issue. Ive immersed painted test strips in IPA for weeks on end without any damage. That said, I could not rule out a temporary softening effect but, since I am not doing any kind of polishing, this is not something which is a concern to me.

Again, the take home message is that surfactants stick. Just because you ran your hose over a surface and it does not bead anymore, does not mean that your LSP is removed.

so what method do you use while using paint cleaners to 100% ensure surface no longer has LSP on it?

 

[FUNX650]

so what method do you use while using paint cleaners to 100% ensure surface no longer has LSP on it?

HI Roshan...

Even though I'm not AGO forum member PiPUK...
What is your definition of a "paint cleaner"?

Since I've given several examples of "paint cleaners" that I've used:
Will you provide an example, or more, of ones you've used? Thanks.



Bob

 

[PiPUK]

so what method do you use while using paint cleaners to 100% ensure surface no longer has LSP on it?

To date nothing short of polish is guaranteed. Chemically, solvent degreasers are most likely to succeed but it is important to check by rinsing very thoroughly with hot water or similar to ensure none of the emulsifying solvents remain.

 

[BillE]

Great conversation Gentlemen...

Bill

 

[SR99]

At times during this discussion I think we might be conflating two separate but related questions:

1) What product XYZ do you use to strip LSP ABC?
2) How do you tell if XYZ completely removed LSP ABC?

Originally, PiPUK showed that certain XYZ+ABC combinations can fool you into believing that ABC was removed, because it leaves a film that acts like parched paint when exposed to water (visually, flat sheets of water, not beading). After removing that film using isopropyl alcohol, the paint was beading again, indicating XYZ didn't actually remove ABC entirely.

This might be because XYZ is not the right product for removing ABC, or it might be that it takes several applications of XYZ to remove ABC. We still don't know if XYZ might be effective at removing some other LSP.

As far as question #2 (how to tell if the LSP is completely removed), PiPUK showed that just looking at beading is not foolproof.

So it seems what is really needed is a foolproof answer to question #2 before question #1 can be answered more generally, for any LSP + remover combination.

We know that visual lack of beading alone is not enough. Does anyone use another method to judge if the LSP is completely removed? I'll admit to thinking that was enough, prior to this thread.

 

[Tinwhiskers]

Pip, you are the Fox Mulder of the detailing world. Keep up the great work. The truth is out there!

 

[KillaCam]

I would wash with a strong mix of whatever soap you're using, and then follow up with something like Duragloss squeaky clean.

 

[FUNX650]

So it seems what is really needed is a foolproof answer to question #2
before question #1 can be answered more generally,
for any LSP + remover combination.

I've asked, on several occasions, why this "need" some folks seem to have in wanting to "strip LSP's"?!?!

In the overall scheme of things...
Don't most LSP's (besides what's alleged by some of the 'Coatings') have what I'll refer to as: a rather short-lived life-cycle?

At that point in its life-cycle, where "refreshing" of an LSP is deemed necessary by an individual, would seem, to me,
to be a most apropos time to perform the following to a vehicle:
-Wash;
-Dry;
-Clay (only if by a revelation from the "Baggie-Test");
-Optional use of a "decontamination-system" (frequency: vehicle's environment, etc., etc., etc.)
-Compound/polish...per: paintwork-assessment/"Test-Spot";
-Application of a different LSP, if desirous to do so.

We know that visual lack of beading alone is not enough.
Does anyone use another method to judge if the LSP is completely removed?

It's difficult for some folks to put a whole lot of trust into some fellow detailing-forums' members postings at times...
Perhaps you'll feel the same towards what I'm going to post below.

But/However:
A visit to one, or more, of your local body shops, and having a conversation with their painter(s) while broaching this:
total removal of LSP's subject matter...should be found to be most enlightening...and entertaining as well.

It has been, over the years, for me.




Bob

 

[Zapa]

Would you please explain how you believe a ~50% IPA solution (I'll assume using distilled water)
will be safer than, say: a ~60-75% IPA solution? Thanks.

NOTE:
When I happenstance to use an IPA-solution/"Diluted"-CarPro's-Eraser...
I follow the guidelines proffered by several Chemists (including those from Meguiar's and Optimum Polymer Technologies)...
That being:
I know I won't use above ~15% IPA solution on vehicles' paint....Especially if it's a BC/CC paint system.

Why take the chance?!?!




Bob

I dont use more than 15% in my Garage. Though the online directions for 22ple does say to use a 50% IPA wipe down before applying.

Also it is obvious why a higher molarity of IPA would be more dangerous. Same reason why a 1 molar HCL solution is less dangerous than a 6 molar HCL solution.

Before you try and flame people you should do your research.

22PLE Glass Coatings Now In Stock at Esoteric Auto Detail! « Esoteric Auto Detail in Columbus, Ohio – Detailing, Training, and Product Sales.

 

[Theostoubos]

Just my opinion,

If im correct This discussion about the LSP not being stripped, is based on the fact that the water was sheeting off the hood after the IPA wipe down.

In the past after compounding a whole car before I go into polishing I usually take the car out, give it a good foam with a mixture of APC and shampoo to get rid of all the dust and polishing oils.

After power washing off the foam i usually rinse with an open hose and the paint surface acts almost like it is waxed. It sheets off any water, because at that moment the paint is very clean and free of any contaminants.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed what I describe, but I believe water sheeting off a hood does not necessarily mean that there is LSP on the paint.

As I said just my opinion and observations. No disrespect to anyone.

 

[SR99]

Bob, as you note (or I think this was your point), there are several different scenarios, and they may call for different approaches:

1). recoating/refreshing with the same LSP (no compounding/polishing step, just the LSP)
2). trying a new LSP, but no compounding/polishing before it is applied.
3). trying a new LSP, but compounding/polishing before it is applied.

Then there are variations of the above, for people that layer multiple products. I would put those into the "nobody really knows" category and I'd think you'd be better off stripping to the bone.

If you're doing scenario #1 (subject to ** below) there's probably no need to completely remove the LSP.

**I think there are some LSPs that have a limited window of time for another coat. After they are fully cured, and its chemical properties have changed/settled to their final state, another coat does not bond well and is a wasted effort. In those cases, it seems you would want complete removal of the initial application. If you're not going to compound/polish, then a chemical removal would seem to be called for (unless something like the nanoskin or speedy prep mechanically removes the previous LSP, and I don't know the answer to that).

If you're doing scenario #2, I'd think you'd want to remove the previous LSP with a paint cleaner of some sort, just to remove an "unknown" about the bond between the different old and new products. Or, you could roll the dice (no paint cleaner) and possibly be fine.

If you're doing scenario #3, the paint cleaner may be a wasted step since any level of abrasive from light swirl removal or more (assuming you do the whole car), should remove the previous LSP. In scenario #3, I guess it doesn't matter whether you try a new LSP or re-apply the same one as before.

 

[FUNX650]

I dont use more than 15% in my Garage.

^^^Good for you, I suppose.^^^

Though the online directions for 22ple does say to use a 50% IPA wipe down before applying.

^^^Didn't see this in your other posting.^^^
Why did you bring this up...since you state you only use a 15% IPA solution in your shop?

.......

.......

OH yea!!...I see why:

22PLE Glass Coatings Now In Stock at Esoteric Auto Detail! « Esoteric Auto Detail in Columbus, Ohio – Detailing, Training, and Product Sales.

^^^BTW: I'm well aware of Todd Cooperider...^^^

And:
If you'd had done, as you say:

your research.

^^^

^^^

you would have found out that I don't need any links to his "operations".

Also it is obvious why a higher molarity of IPA would be more dangerous.
Same reason why a 1 molar HCL solution is less dangerous than a 6 molar HCL solution.

:doh: Are you sure that you shouldn't be comparing the molality of solutions when referencing their dangerousness?

[OOOPS!! This could be misconstrued as "flaming"...I take it back. ]

Before you try and flame people you should do your research.

If you believe that by my asking you the reason(s) you think a certain % of a solution is safer than another % is: "flaming" you...
Then you've already: "gone up in smoke"...as far as I'm concerned.


In closing:
Have the best Life you possibly are able to have.
Just please leave me out of it from this moment forward.

As such, and in the same vein of thought: I will reciprocate.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation. You have mine.


Bob

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Bob, you are a genius. Seriously....

 

[lionshark]

bob...a little "weird" but...i like....a little

 

[ArkayoDeetayo]

bob...a little "weird" but...i like....a little

You just don't understand the awesomeness that is Bob. He is the most interesting forum member with the best post, unique yet entertaining. Once you get use to these forums, you will see how interesting his post are, all are very unique yet great post that adds to the thread. I personally enjoy post he contributes to. As Mark said, Bob is a genius!

 

[PiPUK]

Ok, so now we have established that surfactant products can act to leave a temporary residue which would have a user think that the LSP has been stripped. On the various forums this has been posted, no one has really tried to question the results.

So the next thing to consider is a supposed ‘stripper’ shampoo. So we went and bought one of the most popular such products in the UK and had a go.

We have one bonnet which you can clearly see has some protection but could not be described as the best. The stripper shampoo was applied (neat!) to a wet sponge and you can see what it looks like after a good going over, all good so far. The third picture starts to make you wonder. The car has a number of different products on it because we test new formulations here and you can clearly see that this section doesn’t have a nice look to it, the stripper shampoo has actually ‘beaded’ on this section (for what it is worth, this section has a moderate durability polymer product on it). Final picture is what it looks like after I have thrown another bucket of water over it. Doesn’t look totally stripped, doesn’t even look partially stripped.

View attachment 20522

Ok, polymer sealant so maybe that is too much. So lets start again. This time the area has a spray wax applied to it. No hybrids, nothing fancy, just our standard liquid wax. Picture 1 shows that I have actually applied the shampoo, neat, to the surface. Picture 2 and I have worked it over an area with the sponge. Picture 3 is the first rinse – looks like it might have actually done something this time! Picture 4 is after a second bucket of rinse water is applied – oh dear, some of the ‘stripped’ area is already sheeting off. Picture 5 is after another bucket of rinse water and it really looks although most of the area is behaving just as it was before we did this experiment. What you might notice is that there is a strip on the left where the surface appears to be stripped. So I gave a section of that strip a wipe with IPA – picture 6 shows quite clearly just where I wiped it after I tossed another bucket of water over the area. So, once more, this little section shows that there can be a temporary surfactant residue, this time down to a, so-called, stripper shampoo.

View attachment 20523

Overall the conclusion I have to come to is that this:

a) Can leave a temporary surfactant residue which could fool a user into thinking the LSP was stripped.
b) Was actually unable to even overcome the hydrophobicity of our polymer product so wasn’t even able to leave a surfactant residue.

So yet more reason for you guys to question the myth of easy LSP stripping - here we have failed to remove even a simple spray wax inspite of using a product routinely recommended for stripping of all coatings. LSP STRIPPING IS HARDER THAN YOU THINK!

 

[PiPUK]

My apologies that the pictures are so small - I did try sizing them up but this didn't help!

 

[ski2]

LSP STRIPPING IS HARDER THAN YOU THINK!

And isn't this what we are all looking for in our LSPs--Durability!!!

Thanks for all the great information!!!!!