The query was whether a durable sealant on top of contamination can shield that contamination from a decontaminator, such as IX. As Mike agrees in #86 - yes, this is quite possible if you apply products without removing contamination first.
Correct.
I guess Mike's previous post wasn't specifically addressing this scenario because most durable sealant's will simply not be removed by a normal wash process.
As such, a good thorough wash, prior to your bleeding fallout remover will not cut it. If you have sealed in contamination, you will need to remove that sealer so that you can get access to the contamination below. IX and similar products will simply not be able to penetrate a half decent sealant.
Correct. But some sealants are not as "durable" as others and in the cases of traditional car waxes, (a traditional Carnauba type waxy product), or synthetic paint sealant, (traditionally a product with man-made protection ingredients),
do wear off even when you wash your car via micro-abrasion.
My point was, there's a difference between a fresh coat of wax/sealant and a car that was waxed or sealed weeks, even months ago.
Just how much of the product is still on the surface "sealing" the contaminants a person would want to remove using a product like IronX?
No way to know the answer to that but I think it's safe to assume that if the car is a daily driver and it's been washed multiple times and "time" has gone by then it's less of an issue than some would think.
You see the other alternative is to take things to extremes, this would mean telling everyone that before they can use IronX they must first machine polish the paint on their car to remove any previously applied wax or sealants. This is the only way you can trust that IronX can do it's job. And while this might be or "is" a perfect scenario, it's taking washing and waxing your car to a much longer drawn out process. Nothing wrong with that but again... if it's been a while since the car was waxed or sealed, how much more will be gained by,
- Washing the car.
- Pre-polishing the paint after washing.
- Washing the car again to remove any polishing oils that might hinder IronX.
- Applying IronX.
- Re-washing the car to remove IronX and dissolved iron particles.
- Drying car.
- Claying or decontaminate the car in some other way (Nanoskin products), to remove contaminants that IronX doesn't remove, for example industrial fallout, overspray paint, tree sap mist, etc., fill-in-the-blank.
- Polishing the paint again
- Waxing or sealing the paint.
- If a coating is to be used, chemically stripping the paint then coating the paint.
And this doesn't include any of the other steps like taping off, dressing plastic trim, cleaning and dressing tires, and any other detailing related process and product a person wants to do to their car.
See what I mean by taking something very simple and over-complicating it?
Heck, I'm the last guy on earth to care how many steps a person wants to do to their car to make sure every single process is perfect and every single product is able to perform at maximum efficiency, heck I make a living teaching people how to do this but I do think at some point it can get a wee little bit carried away.
I'm also not sure just how many people would do all of the above to a daily driver? Heck I don't even do that many steps to show cars as I tend not to wash classics, antiques or streetrods because as a practice I don't introduce water into places where it can be a rust issue. See this article,
How To Wash a Classic Muscle Car
That all said, I'm all for each person doing as many steps as they want to their car and myself and this forum will always be here to answer any questions related to any project.
Just to add... if a person does have iron particles of some type in their paint and instead of washing the car and using Iron X to remove them they start by washing the car and then "pre-polishing" the paint to remove the wax so the IronX can get to the iron particles, what's to say that the polishing process might loosen some of the at this point hypothetical iron particles and then grind them into the paint?
Maybe we should,
- Wash the car.
- Then use IronX.
- Then rinse and dry the car.
- Then pre-polish the car.
- Then wash the car.
- Then re-IronX the car.
- Then wash and dry the car.
- The clay the car or decontaminate the car in some other way (Nanoskin products), to remove contaminants that IronX doesn't remove, for example industrial fallout, overspray paint, tree sap mist, etc., fill-in-the-blank.
- Then polish the paint.
- Then apply a wax or sealant.
- If a coating is to be used, chemically stripping the paint then coating the paint.
Now wouldn't that be a more extreme way to approach making 100% sure all products and processes are performed in a way that everything works at maximum efficiency?
Now we're drilling down deep...
Now we're going to get that 2002 silver Toyota Camry really show car clean and protected... (No offence to Toyota owners, just using it as an example of a common daily driver).
This actually gives me a thought with regards to another test - I am going to seal up a contaminated panel and do a side by side. I would imagine that the sealed side will bleed notably less. I'll then do some cleaning with supposed LSP strippers and see if I can uncover that sealed in contamination.
Do you have a way to artificially induce iron contamination?
I mean I've posted that in a perfect world, when using IronX you won't see any bleeding effect.
If you see the bleeding effect on your car's paint that means it was contaminated and corrosion has been at work on and in the paint.
It's better to use IronX and NOT see any bleeding effect as this is a general sign that there was no iron contamination with exception to the entire argument above that the wax or sealant prevents the IronX from doing it's job.
Point being, for your test, how would you know the paint your testing has iron contamination without first testing it by applying a product like IronX but after applying the IronX you will have remove the iron you needed in the paint for your test?
So do you have a way to artificially induce iron contamination?
While I have not done this I have thought about gathering iron dust at the base of a Bench Grinder, (where iron or steel is either ground using a grinding stone or iron or steel is cleaned using a wire wheel, there's lots of iron dust around these types of tools, I worked as welder once in my life so I know), and then taking a white hood obtained from a salvage yard, (white shows the bleeding effect best, black shows it the worst), and then sprinkling it over the white hood and possibly even spraying something over it to "whet" it to the surface. Then letting it stand for some period of time so the iron particles can do there thing.
Since I teach classes on Detailing, one of the things we cover is using IronX to decontaminate paint. IN FACT, for my next class I'm brining in a WHITE Chevrolet Suburban, that sits out side 24 x 7 and has NOT been detailed, clayed or polished for YEARS. Just because it's my HOPE that when my class uses the IronX product they will see with their eyes the bleeding effect and the IMPORTANCE of using a product to decontaminate paint on a neglected car before starting the detailing process.
I'll have a picture of this Suburban today or tomorrow as I always post the pictures of the cars I use in my classes before the classes take place.
(I think I'm the only guy on the Internet that shows the cars I'm going to use in my classes
before the classes take place. I can't think of anyone else that does this? Heck I can't think of anyone else that posts as
many pictures of the cars
in the class and
after the class has polished them out. But I digress...)
I can get as AR about a topic as anyone and usually more... I just don't like to...
Back to researching for me... thanks for the great thread everyone!
