Microfiber swirls

[Rossu]

Hey. Need a little help.
I've always had problems with swirling after wiping off waxes/polishes. So i did some tests. I compounded/polished a black metallic scrapyard front quarterpanel. Did an IPA wipedown after both steps. Shined a light on the panel and presto, tons of swirls. I ordered some 600gsm plush microfibers, as i think its a case of bad MF towels. Megs M21 made things better, but i'm not really interested in hiding my improper work, but want to improve to the stage of perfection. Any ideas or tips?

I'll add a pic too.

 

[Dan Tran]

Hey. Need a little help.
I've always had problems with swirling after wiping off waxes/polishes. So i did some tests. I compounded/polished a black metallic scrapyard front quarterpanel. Did an IPA wipedown after both steps. Shined a light on the panel and presto, tons of swirls. I ordered some 600gsm plush microfibers, as i think its a case of bad MF towels. Megs M21 made things better, but i'm not really interested in hiding my improper work, but want to improve to the stage of perfection. Any ideas or tips?

I'll add a pic too.

Not for anything, but what selection of tools, compound, polish, and pads do you typically use?


Dan Tran
The Buffing Moose Detailing

 

[Rossu]

Not for anything, but what selection of tools, compound, polish, and pads do you typically use?


Dan Tran
The Buffing Moose Detailing

I use a short throw DA, compounded with rupes green foam pad and 3m Fast Cut Compound. Polished using rupes yellow pad and 3m ultrafine polish.

 

[dlc95]

What towels are you currently using?

Do you have any abrasives available that are not rotary specific?

 

[Rossu]

What towels are you currently using?

Do you have any abrasives available that are not rotary specific?

My towels are quite soft and plush, yet not the most expensive ones. Do you think the polishes i use are the problem? I've gotten good results with the 3m compounds/polishes. Just did a 2017 audi dark grey using a yellow pad/fine compound and white pad/ultrafine combo with good results. I really think its a matter of MF. Later i dry wiped the black test panel with my softest MF many many times, and the swirls got worse and worse by the wipe.

 

[DBAILEY]

The 3M polishes will definitely leave an oil residue. The residue will mask how well you polished. I think you may be removing that oil with the IPA and realizing that you did not correct as well as you thought. Your towels may be contributing to the problem also.

 

[Rossu]

The 3M polishes will definitely leave an oil residue. The residue will mask how well you polished. I think you may be removing that oil with the IPA and realizing that you did not correct as well as you thought. Your towels may be contributing to the problem also.

That may be the case. I'll try changing my MF towels, hopefully that's my problem.
And i got out all deeper scratches. So there shouldn't be any reason why the swirl marks should still be there.

 

[fightnews]

I use a short throw DA, compounded with rupes green foam pad and 3m Fast Cut Compound. Polished using rupes yellow pad and 3m ultrafine polish.

Going from hard compound to ultrafine polish is to much of a leap. You need a medium polish in there with those products.

I do know your problem though it seems ups wipedowns reveal the fine tick marks that are hard to get rid of. Sometimes I think they are little potmarks/chips in the paint. I call them microchips

 

[Rossu]

Going from hard compound to ultrafine polish is to much of a leap. You need a medium polish in there with those products.

I do know your problem though it seems ups wipedowns reveal the fine tick marks that are hard to get rid of. Sometimes I think they are little potmarks/chips in the paint. I call them microchips

The compound/ultrafine polish combo seems to work well. Takes care of all the haze left by the compound. And pretty surely these are swirls, not chips.

 

[DBAILEY]

Are the swirls that show after the IPA wipe down all over the panel or more visible in certain areas than others. If it was your towels it would show up over the whole panel since you are removing the compound/polishes and doing the IPA wipe down on the entire panel. However, if the swirls are gone in the areas where you went after deeper RIDS, like you said, but are visible in the areas where you did not go after the RIDS then that would suggest that you are not correcting as much as you think you are. It's just hard to tell due to the masking, but the IPA is showing you the true condition.

I agree also, jumping from 3M Fast Cut to Ultrafina is quite a jump.

 

[DaveT435]

The 3M polishes will definitely leave an oil residue. The residue will mask how well you polished. I think you may be removing that oil with the IPA and realizing that you did not correct as well as you thought. Your towels may be contributing to the problem also.

I agree with this. Also what your using for polishing may not be correcting the swirls your compound is putting in the paint. I also think you're comparing apples and oranges when comparing the Audi paint to your test panel, unless the test panel is from an Audi. Audi is one of the hardest clears out there in my experience.

A good compound and light cutting pad will usually leave Audi paint LSP ready. On the other hand the Fast cutting compound on that green pad will leave soft Honda paint in pretty rough shape. I love the Rupes yellow pad, if you use that with a polish that has some decent cut I think your results will be different. Just my opinion

I'm not that familiar with 3M compounds and polishes so I could be wrong. Do you know what kind of vehicle your test panel came off?? Also there is still the argument that it could be the microfiber and the Audi paint was hard enough that you didn't scratch it.

 

[Route246]

Unless your towels are severely contaminated or they are defective they should not be causing this much problem. I would consider trying a different product on your test panel to see if the same swirling behavior happens. If not, then it is probably the 3M products. If it does then it is probably your towels or your method. I wouldn't condemn your towels.

I too, am not familiar with 3M. I use Megs 101/201, WG, McKees and Sonax polishes and various AIO without these problems and I occasionally use cheap (Costco) towels without any resultant swirling.

One last thing, how hard are you buffing? Your buffing should be very light touch without using much downward force.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

You're using old school absrasives. Pick up some higher tech polishes. Also pick up some eagle edgless MF towels from the rag Company. You might be dealing with soft paint in this application.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Autogeekonline mobile app

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

You're using old school absrasives. Pick up some higher tech polishes. Also pick up some eagle edgless MF towels from the rag Company. You might be dealing with soft paint in this application.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Autogeekonline mobile app

To add, IPA can Marr the paint as it's not lubricated that well. Pick up Gyeon Prep, optimum paint prep, or carpro eraser.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Autogeekonline mobile app

 

[Rossu]

Are the swirls that show after the IPA wipe down all over the panel or more visible in certain areas than others. If it was your towels it would show up over the whole panel since you are removing the compound/polishes and doing the IPA wipe down on the entire panel. However, if the swirls are gone in the areas where you went after deeper RIDS, like you said, but are visible in the areas where you did not go after the RIDS then that would suggest that you are not correcting as much as you think you are. It's just hard to tell due to the masking, but the IPA is showing you the true condition.

I agree also, jumping from 3M Fast Cut to Ultrafina is quite a jump.

the swirls are all over the panel, not on certain spots.

I agree with this. Also what your using for polishing may not be correcting the swirls your compound is putting in the paint. I also think you're comparing apples and oranges when comparing the Audi paint to your test panel, unless the test panel is from an Audi. Audi is one of the hardest clears out there in my experience.

A good compound and light cutting pad will usually leave Audi paint LSP ready. On the other hand the Fast cutting compound on that green pad will leave soft Honda paint in pretty rough shape. I love the Rupes yellow pad, if you use that with a polish that has some decent cut I think your results will be different. Just my opinion

I'm not that familiar with 3M compounds and polishes so I could be wrong. Do you know what kind of vehicle your test panel came off?? Also there is still the argument that it could be the microfiber and the Audi paint was hard enough that you didn't scratch it.

The test panel is off a 2005 VW. I also tried Rupes yellow pad and 3M Fine Compound after heavy cutting, but with no big difference. I also did a blue metallic 05 VW Touran a few days back, using the same green pad/fast cut and white pad/ultra fine polish combo with close to perfect results.

Unless your towels are severely contaminated or they are defective they should not be causing this much problem. I would consider trying a different product on your test panel to see if the same swirling behavior happens. If not, then it is probably the 3M products. If it does then it is probably your towels or your method. I wouldn't condemn your towels.

I too, am not familiar with 3M. I use Megs 101/201, WG, McKees and Sonax polishes and various AIO without these problems and I occasionally use cheap (Costco) towels without any resultant swirling.

One last thing, how hard are you buffing? Your buffing should be very light touch without using much downward force.

I buff with little to no pressure when doing minor correction. When i come across deeper defects, i add a small amount of pressure. But most of the time its just the weight of the machine.

You're using old school absrasives. Pick up some higher tech polishes. Also pick up some eagle edgless MF towels from the rag Company. You might be dealing with soft paint in this application.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Autogeekonline mobile app

Old school abrasives meaning what exactly? I've heard that 3M products are more suitable for a body shop setting and buffing out sanding marks. The best abrasives available in my region are Megs and Rupes probably. So, since im using Rupes pads, i'll maybe go for the Rupes corresponding compounds/polishes. Or something from Megs.

 

[Rossu]

Also what do you guys think of Menzerna compounds/polishes?
Specifically Heavy Cut Compound 1000 for heavy cutting with the Rupes Blue/Green pad. Menzerna Medium Cut Polish 2500 with the Rupes yellow pad and then Menzerna Super Finish 3500 with the Rupes white pad?

 

[SWETM]

Also what do you guys think of Menzerna compounds/polishes?
Specifically Heavy Cut Compound 1000 for heavy cutting with the Rupes Blue/Green pad. Menzerna Medium Cut Polish 2500 with the Rupes yellow pad and then Menzerna Super Finish 3500 with the Rupes white pad?

Get the menzerna HC400(FG400) instead of the HC1000. Then you can go from HC400 to SF3500 with a yellow or white Rupes foam pad. The HC400 you can start with the yellow foam pad and move up in aggressiveness all the way to Rupes blue wool pad. And still finish with the yellow foam pad and SF3500. The HC1000 is not so good at finish down good. Think it's 9/10 in cut and 3/10 in gloss. And the HC400 is cut 8/10 and gloss 8/10. Even the SHC300 is to prefer over the HC1000 as it cut 10/10 and gloss 6/10. The PF2500 or PF2200 medium cut polishes if you not needed the heavy cut that HC400 has.

What are you washing with after polishing?
A great panel wipe product like Gyeon PREP or Carpro Eraser or any other. As noted before you getting a little lubrication with them. And useing newly washed mf towels with the different steps.

Inspect the true compounding and polishing sometimes during the work with the panel wipe product. And use a great lighting from different angles.

How many passes per sections do you do with the 3M products and what speed do you have?

 

[Route246]

Old school abrasives meaning what exactly? I've heard that 3M products are more suitable for a body shop setting and buffing out sanding marks. The best abrasives available in my region are Megs and Rupes probably. So, since im using Rupes pads, i'll maybe go for the Rupes corresponding compounds/polishes. Or something from Megs.

Old school means old school. It refers to technology in this case that was available decades ago. Oftentimes, there is nothing wrong with this as long as you have expectations and are using the current technologies that were normalized decades ago. When you're mixing modern (newer clear coat, foam buffing pads, microfiber towels, DA polishers, chemicals and products that did not exist decades ago it is not unreasonable to expect inconsistency of results. Those 3M products probably worked very well using rotary polishers, wool pads and a lot of refined technique at a body shop but they may not translate for today's newer technology.

 

[Rossu]

Get the menzerna HC400(FG400) instead of the HC1000. Then you can go from HC400 to SF3500 with a yellow or white Rupes foam pad. The HC400 you can start with the yellow foam pad and move up in aggressiveness all the way to Rupes blue wool pad. And still finish with the yellow foam pad and SF3500. The HC1000 is not so good at finish down good. Think it's 9/10 in cut and 3/10 in gloss. And the HC400 is cut 8/10 and gloss 8/10. Even the SHC300 is to prefer over the HC1000 as it cut 10/10 and gloss 6/10. The PF2500 or PF2200 medium cut polishes if you not needed the heavy cut that HC400 has.

What are you washing with after polishing?
A great panel wipe product like Gyeon PREP or Carpro Eraser or any other. As noted before you getting a little lubrication with them. And useing newly washed mf towels with the different steps.

Inspect the true compounding and polishing sometimes during the work with the panel wipe product. And use a great lighting from different angles.

How many passes per sections do you do with the 3M products and what speed do you have?

I apply 5-7 pea size dots of polish on the primed pad, and do 5-6 passes per section. I spread the polish on speed 2-3, and work the polish on speed 5-6(i always make sure that there is enough compound/polish on the surface, and that the surface is not too hot). I then wipe off most of the residue with a MF towel, and go over the section using an IPA 35% solution wipedown. I also always wash the car after compounding/polishing, due to the high dust generated by 3M polishes(yeah, kinda need to change to something better). Menzerna HC400 not available in my region. Thinking about trying Rupes compounds/polishes, since i am using Rupes pads. Or try Megs pads/polishes.

 

[dlc95]

My towels are quite soft and plush, yet not the most expensive ones. Do you think the polishes i use are the problem? I've gotten good results with the 3m compounds/polishes. Just did a 2017 audi dark grey using a yellow pad/fine compound and white pad/ultrafine combo with good results. I really think its a matter of MF. Later i dry wiped the black test panel with my softest MF many many times, and the swirls got worse and worse by the wipe.

With rotary specific liquids, the abrasives are designed to break down optimally and consistently under the high speeds of a rotary buffer.

Using them on a random orbital, or fixed rotation dual action tool might not take be able to work the abrasives down consistently.

I've even had Meguiar's M09 Swirl Remover leave a haze, or tick marks. Even though It's comparable with random orbitals, and even hand use the abrasives are a bit dated compared to the newer products on the market. I probably just needed to work them longer, but of I use something like M205, or Ultimate Polish I'm usually done finishing in two passes.

Even Meguiar's Ultimate Compound and Polish will probably work better with the D/A than the 3M.

If it is the towels, you might need something of higher overall quality. I have some really soft, auto parts store towels, but they don't touch the paint.