Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding


Sheldon explaining Quantum Physics to Penny on the Big Bang Theory

Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding
The topic of bonding as it relates to a wax or a paint sealant bonding to paint comes up on most detailing discussion forums from time to time, and there's a lot of confusion and probably miss-information about this topic.

The idea presented is that in order for a wax or paint sealant to properly bond to an automotive paint finish, the paint finish must be chemically stripped so that the paint is surgically clean and free from any residual polishing oils or any other substances.

The goal is to insure there's nothing on the surface that could potentially interfere with the bonding action between the protection ingredients in a wax or paint sealant and the paint.



Follow the Manufacturer's Recommendations
The first and primary consideration goes to the manufactures recommendations. If the manufacturer of a wax or paint sealant officially recommends that the surface of the paint must be stripped clean before their product can properly bond to the paint, then you should follow the recommendations of the manufacturer as they know their products best.

If the manufacturer does not specifically recommend that a painted surface needs to be stripped clean, then whatever recommendations they do provide should be followed as they know their products best.

To my knowledge, there are only a few manufacturers in the wax and paint sealant business that recommend that the surface of automotive paint be surgically clean and bare before their products can be applied. Besides these few companies, most manufacturers either recommend to apply their wax and/or paint sealant to the paint after first using their surface prep products which can include, compounds, polishes, paint cleaners and pre-wax cleaners. And of course, sometimes there are no specific recommendations.


Back in February of 2005, this topic came up when I worked for Meguiar's as it related to applying NXT Tech Wax over a surface previously polished using Meguiar's M80 Speed Glaze.

Here's the specific thread,

Do Glazes/Fillers affect the bonding of NXT?


I contacted R&D, communicated with one of the Chemists, and then posted a statement provided to me on this topic.

A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface.

These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.

Since leaving Meguiar's and joining the Autogeek Team in 2009, the topic of bonding has come up from time to time. I knew I had written on this topic, but could not remember the keyword or words to help me locate the above thread. Then I remembered the word, did a search and found the thread.


Here are the key words, and note the portions I've formatted to be bold, red and italic...

Taken from TheFreeDictionary.com

Miscible
Relating to two or more substances, such as water and alcohol, that can be mixed together or can dissolve into one another in any proportion without separating.


Immiscible
Incapable of being mixed or blended together. Immiscible liquids that are shaken together eventually separate into layers. Oil and water are immiscible.
​

I'm not a chemist and don't ever claim to be one and do everything I can to avoid talking or typing over my head. That said, it is my opinion that while the above information is supplied by a chemist at Meguiar's, it's probably true for most quality waxes and paint sealants manufactured by reputable companies, unless they state otherwise, i.e., unless they state that the surface must be stripped clean before applying their wax or paint sealant.


So unless a manufacturer specifically states or recommends that an automotive paint finish must be stripped clean for their wax or paint sealant to properly bond or adhere, then I think it's safe to say that the chemist behind the brand has created their wax and paint sealant formulas to use the same miscible oils, (or other miscible substances), in their surface prep products to aid in the bonding or adhering of the protection ingredients used in their waxes and/or paint sealants to paint.

This would be called, Synergistic Chemical Compatibility.


It's entirely possible that a lot of popular waxes and paint sealants on the market will bond or adhere to paint correctly after the paint has been prepped using compounds, polishes and paint cleaners outside the brand of the waxes or paint sealants being applied. There's no easy way of knowing or testing, but in my opinion, I would think the chances for this type of chemical compatibility to be more likely than less likely as there is probably some common chemistry involved in surface prep products and protection products that overlaps among different polish and wax companies.


That's just my opinion or guesstimate, you can make up your own mind.


My good friend, Tom aka Mosca as he's known on detailing discussion forums, once posted,

I've never walked out into a garage only to find out that overnight the wax or paint sealant I applied slipped off the car's paint and piled-up on the floor surrounding the car because it didn't bond or stick to the paint.

I would have to agree with Tom.


To strip or not to strip?
Do you need to chemically strip your car's paint with some type of solvent before applying a wax or paint sealant to enable the protection ingredients to better bond or adhere to the paint?


Manufacturer's Specific Recommendation
Only if the wax or paint sealant manufacturer specifically recommends this procedure.

Or​

Personal Preference
If after researching this topic you personally want and feel the need to chemically strip the paint.

Or

Forum Member's Recommendation

See what I wrote above under Personal Preference

If you use good quality products and follow the manufacturer's directions, plus work clean and use good technique, then you should be able to apply your choice of wax or paint sealant directly to your car's paint after wiping off the residue left by the last surface prep product used on the paint. This, by the way, is my normal practice, and below is my personal recommendation on this topic as taken from here.


How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results


Excerpt

Personal Recommendation For Removing Waxes and Paint Sealants
To remove any previously applied wax or paint sealant, I recommend using a light paint cleaner or a light polish applied by hand or machine. A light paint cleaner or abrasive polish will effectively remove any previously applied wax or paint sealant AND leave the paint looking clear and glossy. I call this working forward in the process because the goal is to create beauty.

Chemically stripping the paint will tend to dull the paint; it certainly doesn't increase gloss and clarity. You don't see the dulling effect unless you're working on black paint and repeat the process multiple times. Since not everyone works on black paint, and you're not going to make stripping your car's paint a daily routine, it could be you won't see the dulling effect on your car's paint but it does take place.

Wiping a clear coated black finish over and over and over again with any type of solvent isn't going to make the top clear layer of paint more and more clear, it's going to do the opposite, that is dull it down.

So chemically stripping paint is what I call working backwards in the process. I, personally, prefer to work forwards in all my detailing projects but do understand the reasons why some people want to chemically strip their car's paint, or their customer's car's paint, and each person can decide what the best approach is for their needs.

And again, since you're not chemically stripping the paint as a "practice" but only during a detailing session, the dulling effect is not an issue, but I wanted to point it out just for the most detail oriented detailing enthusiasts or Pro Detailers reading this article.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

***Thread Now Open For Discussion***

This was a somewhat tricky article to write and the goal is to simply help people to make the best decision for themselves as whether or not to chemically strip their car's paint before applying a wax or paint sealant.

PM me by clicking on my name above my Avatar or send me an e-mail here,

[email protected]



Thanks!


:xyxthumbs:

 

[RaskyR1]

I couldn't agree more Mike! I actually have that Meguiar's link bookmarked for when discussions come up on the forums that relate to it. :dblthumb2:

I typically just give the car a good wash with a regular car soap after polishing. No IPA wipe downs for me. I actually feel like IPA and other similar solvents dry the paint out...just look what it does to your hands.


The only time I have been wiping cars down to prep the surface is for paint coatings like Opti-Coat and CQuartz, which is actually recommended by those manufacturers.



Cheers,
Rasky

 

[Rob T]

I've moved away from doing an IPA wipedown after polishing, and use a paint cleaner of some sort instead.

 

[SATracker]

Another great post, Mike. What a concept, follow the manufacturer's directions.

 

[neuralfraud]

:rant:

It would seem to me the reason that these questions arise is from the result of peculiar marketing tactics. I cannot claim to know any more than the next guy about chemistry, however if someone charged with creating a myriad of detailing products states that miscible oils are necessary for the proper adhesion, then that product is going to obviously contain its own oils to accomplish this. Mixing with surface oils then makes little difference especially since 99.9% of products are designed this way.

This draws parallels similar to the audiophile world, where in all seriousness, people spend thousands of dollars on specialized equipment that makes their sound system work better. Things like wooden volume knobs, cable trees to keep your speaker cables off of the floor (because harmonic resonance can be affected). One manufacturer even marketed a product so absurd that it has since become infamous - that would be the DENON ETHERNET CABLE.

Allow me to quote:

Get the purest digital audio you've ever experienced from multi-channel DVD and CD playback through your Denon home theater receiver with the AK-DL1 dedicated cable. Made of high-purity copper wire, it's designed to thoroughly eliminate adverse effects from vibration and helps stabilize the digital transmission from occurrences of jitter and ripple. A tin-bearing copper alloy is used for the cable's shield while the insulation is made of a fluoropolymer material with superior heat resistance, weather resistance, and anti-aging properties. The connector features a rounded plug lever to prevent bending or breaking and direction marks to indicate correct direction for connecting cable.

Now reading that, if you didn't know any better, you would think that - gee if my system were connected with THAT cable, I could have less "jitter" in my digital binary data transfer of audio information, which would translate to my digital audio sounding *better*.

Going back OT... it is very easy to see how the same issue can and apparently has also affected the detailing community/industry and all it does is create confusion!

That being said...

It takes passion to go research and put together a clear, detailed and informative article on something that may only be seen by a few people. In a society where 99% of people simply do not care, we're the 1% who take pride in our work, and a good deal of us are hobbyists who are just trying to find out the best way of working with something and doing so within our means. We don't always know everything and that is why we need guys like yourself who figure this crap out and in-turn distribute that knowledge so that we can make informed decisions.

In other words, Thanks! rops:

 

[indianaryan]

neuralfraud, you make a very good point. I think that sometimes we as consumers can fall prey to these "gimmicks" that might help somewhat, but aren't exactly necessary.

Really it comes down to actually experimenting with different methods to see what works for you. I plan on doing that myself to see if there are any benefits in chemically stripping the paint before applying a sealant. I may find out that there is, and I may not. But I'd rather find out for myself than blindly doing something.

Another great article Mike!

 

[mikek753]

Hi Mike,

Would you give any info about bonding Syn or none Syn Wax on top of Syn Sealant.
I don't know how to clean or prepare applied sealant for a wax.
In my case I prepared by IPA about 30% after polishing and applied Griot's sealant by Orange pad - for a car (Lexus es330) it took about 1/3 bottle (may be I over use it?) wait 10-30 min to wipe out let cure for 20h, then wipe out with Griot's Speed Shine and buff a little to make sure it's clean and dry. Then applied AutoGlym HD Wax by LC crimson pad.

Thanks for guidance.

 

[Shawn T.]

Never used an IPA wipedown and probably never will. If the paint is where I want it after my finishing polish then I apply my LSP. I have never used an LSP that required an IPA wipedown before.

 

[Kaleb G.]

Hey Mike,

In theory, is this another reason why letting a miscible wax or sealant 'cure' is important? Because *in theory* if you mix two miscible products together, wouldn't each product become diluted of its original formula as they mix?

For example, if you put a sealant down that can last a month or so and then a wax that last just a few weeks, wouldn't you be weakening the lifespan of the sealant? I guess another way to look at it would be that you were improving the performance of the wax, though.

Just a thought.

Kaleb

 

[mikek753]

it's been 6+ weeks
and so far I like this combo of sealant + HD wax way more on this car than Meg's HT 2 wax on another car
looks and protection wise
water repellent wise like a day and night

interesting how new Meg's wax would compare to HD Wax?

 

[HeavyMetal]

Follow the Manufacturer's Recommendations

Synergistic Chemical Compatibility.

Mike, thanks again for another supeb post. Loved the above key points. While I'm not a professional chemist, I did minor in Organic Chem in college and developed several chem based processes when I was a process engineer (I also once slept at a Holiday Inn Express ), so I get the point. Your comments on the synergistic compatibility illustrates a key point from another of your posts on staying within a brand. The chemists are specifically formulating the products from one step to react favorably with the next. If you go outside the brand line, maybe you get this, maybe you get some, maybe you get nothing or a negative effect.

Anyway, anyone can do anything they want to their own cars or in their business. If someone wants to prep cars with radioactive naplam, more power to 'em. Just don't expect me to follow along. As a process engineer I learned a long time ago that "best practices", mfg recommendations and those that work just fine are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, thanks again for another superb post.

Thank you for the kind words... I found this article one of the more tricky articles that I've ever written...

I have a writing style I call, Defensive Writing, and by this I mean if I can't defend it, I don't write it nor do I post it.

But when I do post it... I have all my ducks in a row. Kind of something I learned through experience as I'm a Veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wars on multiple discussion forums over the years.

(I wrote "The Zaino Case Study"), back in 2004 and it's 65 page long not including documentation.


And... Sal Zaino is a good friend of mine... as are the good folks at Meguiar's...


"Find something you like and use it often"

 

[HeavyMetal]

I have a writing style I call, Defensive Writing

I'm a Veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wars

Yup, defensive writing is a very good idea on forums. Some folks invest themselves emotionally quite heavily in a product or process often with all of the fervor of a mother bear defending her cubs. IMHO, they need to take a deep breath because at this level most of the products are pretty darn good, so the wax/sealant/whatever wars are a bit on the silly side.

 

[dtuna42]

Hey Mike,

In theory, is this another reason why letting a miscible wax or sealant 'cure' is important? Because *in theory* if you mix two miscible products together, wouldn't each product become diluted of its original formula as they mix?

For example, if you put a sealant down that can last a month or so and then a wax that last just a few weeks, wouldn't you be weakening the lifespan of the sealant? I guess another way to look at it would be that you were improving the performance of the wax, though.

Just a thought.

Kaleb

I thought I had something to say but I got confused...

 

[S7ICKlVlAN]

Gonna bump this after reading it....Great read Mike.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Yup, defensive writing is a very good idea on forums.

Some folks invest themselves emotionally quite heavily in a product or process often with all of the fervor of a mother bear defending her cubs. IMHO, they need to take a deep breath because at this level most of the products are pretty darn good, so the wax/sealant/whatever wars are a bit on the silly side.

Yup. I'm in my own zone when I'm on a forum, come from years of actually walking the walk, not just typing about it.

Gonna bump this after reading it....Great read Mike.

Thank you sir. I try to write in a way that the information I lay down will endure over time.


:xyxthumbs:

 

[PiPUK]

Thanks for the bump, gave me something new to read.

My view is as one previous poster - there is a lot of marketing involved when it comes to product compatability. My most amusing anecdote on this is one supplier who insists that the surface must be clean and you must use their preparation product. Unfortunately for them, their prep product has a load silicone oils and will leave the surface anything but clean - so clearly their marketing is nonsense. Whether this is generic or not, I would not like to say.

My own experience in formulation leads me to the manufacture of 'parasitic' products. Products which will 'bond' (I use this term loosely, just like the bond strengths...) to almost anything. I can understand why brands would seek to have users depend on a larger share of the products base but I certainly have found it notably difficult to develop products which genuinely rely on each other to work, at least when it comes to the traditional LSP sector.

Of course this is flipped on its head when it comes to the more technological products. I absolutely agree on cleanliness - there are very specific bonds (not loose ones!) which will indeed fail to form if contaminated. You can probably appreciate this simply from the variability of products in these sectors. A traditional LSP product can be (and is, if you look at the products) tweaked to give almost any appearance, whether is is high gloss, high colour enhancement, clarity, etc. The high tech products are enormously more complex, you cannot simply add a silicone oil or bump the carnauba content to achieve another appearance - these would be contaminants which could not be tolerated.

When it comes down to it, I favour the use of a highly volatile panel wipe (good for lifting non-polar contaminants) followed by IPA (for the removal of any remnant light oils from the panel wipe). If a product claims to need something other than that - it's just too fussy for my taste.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Thanks for the bump, gave me something new to read.

Have you been through the entire list yet?

Articles by Mike Phillips


I added about 20 new articles last week and have a couple more dozen to add still...


:laughing:

When it comes down to it, I favour the use of a highly volatile panel wipe (good for lifting non-polar contaminants) followed by IPA (for the removal of any remnant light oils from the panel wipe).

The only problem with the above is that the person doing the wiping must be very careful PLUS use premium quality wiping cloths so as not to re-introduce marring back into the paint as some chemical stripping products are not also GREAT lubricants.

I point this out in detail here with pictures using black paint to make the point...


Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer


Wiped very thoroughly with Mineral Spirits

Any marring you see now is not "holograms" but marring from wiping. Keep in mind, clear coats are "Scratch-Sensitive" and when working on BLACK paint even the lightest defects show up, that's why I always test on black paint.

I think it's pretty obvious that there are zero holograms or rotary buffer swirls in the paint...

Next I wiped the panel down with IPA at 12.5%. Note when I wiped the panel down both with MS and IPA I dragged the panel into the shade first.

Now you can see some light marring, but that's because IPA isn't a very good lubricant, in fact it's a horrible lubricant. I think of all the people that have been told by others to wipe their car down with IPA before going to the next step and it's pretty easy to understand that when they did this they likely marred their car's paint and this is called working backwards. It's also likely that if the people taking this advice were working on light to medium colored cars they never saw the marring.

If a product claims to need something other than that - it's just too fussy for my taste.

At a minimum, it can't possibly do any harm to work within a system approach when using a reputable brand of products. For example, after polishing or using a pre-wax paint cleaner from Brand X, follow that with an LSP from Brand X.

What do you have to lose?

If a product claims to need something other than that - it's just too fussy for my taste.

And then we're back to here... this article I wrote in 1994...


"Find something you like and use it often"


And here's what the above quote means...

If you like a product, that usually means you like the experience of using it which includes application, that is you like how the product applies. It also tends to mean you like how the product removes, that is you like how the product wipes-off. It can also mean you like how fast or slow it dries or the fact that it doesn't have to dry at all and you can wipe it off immediately.

And usually and most important, it means you like how it makes the paint on your car look and that's a huge part of the big picture of owning and enjoying your car, truck or s.u.v. or special interest car.

You can't really know which product you like best until you've used a variety of products so finding something you like and using it often means you have to do some research and at some point make some purchases and then go out into your garage and do some testing to gain real world knowledge and experience.

At some point you will find a product you like and if you use it often then your car's paint will always look good because it's only when you neglect your car's paint that it goes downhill.

Just the simple act of applying and working-in and over the paint a smooth, creamy product, (that is formulated to make paint look good), has a polishing-effect and if done on a regular basis will preserve and maintain a clear, glossy finish and isn't that the primary goal of those that consider them serious car enthusiasts?

How often you have to repeat this process to maintain your car's finish to a quality level you expect for your car's appearance depends upon how the car is used and where it's parked when not in use.

A daily driver that is parked outside most of the time, either at work or at home, will need to be maintained more regularly than a Garage Queen that is only driven on sunny days. So adjust your car maintenance schedule to fit your lifestyle and the way you use your car.
​

 

[PiPUK]

Have you been through the entire list yet?

Articles by Mike Phillips


I added about 20 new articles last week and have a couple more dozen to add still...


:laughing:

Oh I work my way through a bit at a time - keeping up with chemical updates tends to keep me fairly busy!

Now you can see some light marring, but that's because IPA isn't a very good lubricant, in fact it's a horrible lubricant. I think of all the people that have been told by others to wipe their car down with IPA before going to the next step and it's pretty easy to understand that when they did this they likely marred their car's paint and this is called working backwards. It's also likely that if the people taking this advice were working on light to medium colored cars they never saw the marring.

Good point there, Mike. As you have likely gathered, detailing is only my minor! I would tend not to dilute my IPA (though in fairness I actually use ethanol, to be awkward!) just as far as you so will have a bit more help on the lubricating side as it flashes but I do take your meaning - when you point it out, this step is probably un-necessary as long as you use a low enough flash point organic as the primary wipe.

At a minimum, it can't possibly do any harm to work within a system approach when using a reputable brand of products. For example, after polishing or using a pre-wax paint cleaner from Brand X, follow that with an LSP from Brand X.

What do you have to lose?

Oh it cannot do any harm at all - I did not mean to contradict on that. I just believe that a pre-wax cleanser should be just that - if the LSP requires cleanser X and no other then I am tempted to suggest that the cleanser X is probably more of an AIO (laying something down to aid the bonding) than the cleanser. Of course that is nit-picking. I guess what I am in fact alluding to is that the use of terminology in this area is rather ambiguous and what the user perhaps expects from the product category may not match entirely what the product is doing.

Mind you - the terminology is a lot better than what the chemical industry uses. Talk to the big manufacturers and a polish could mean anything from a pure cleanser through to a wax with heavy compound abrasives!