New Flex 3401 coming tomorrow, how much learning curve orver DA?

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Sounds good Bill. Looking forward to seeing pics.

 

[zmanjohn]

Ok, Starting using my new Flex Polisher, the power is incredible. I am able to do in three passes what took my HF DA 6-7 passes at times to do. I started on the Charger, Black Metalic, the other day. Just doing a bit more than a one step for a very good friend that really needs some help and it would brighten her day to have a bright shinny car.
Ok, I have a couple of questions, not sure if things are supposed to go like this and what am I doing wrong?
To start off, I am using a LC Flat Orange pad, Meg's UC. With the kit recieve XMT Pad Conditioner. I followed instructions and spray the pad one time about 6" away with the pad conditioner. Appply (4) dime size spots of UC, polish a 24" x 24" area, this on roof. Spread polish on low speed with trottle control on Flex. Slowly bring up to speed 5, lock in and polish 3 times alternating direction and overlapping about 1/2 of previous pass using about 10-12# force. Then lighten press and do two higher speed passes with very light pressure. See photos below:
Flex Polisher - AutogeekOnline Gallery

After two sections:

Section after polishing, but not wiped down yet, note all the dusting:

Flex Polisher on setting 5:

Pad build-up after 3 sections:

Results are amazing but I have a couple of questions:
1.) Is this a normal type of dusting for Meg's UC?
2.) Can you still do the cleaning pads on the fly with the Flex? how often?
3.) Should the LC Flat pads be getting warm while polishing? Does this mean I am putting too much pressure?
4.) Is it also normal for the aluminum head on the Flex to get very warm/hot during normal operation?

Sorry for all the questions. I had not had any of these issues with my DA polisher. I am not sure if all this is normal, part of the learning curve or I am doing something wrong.

Please provide a little feedback. I will upload photos of results shortly.Feed back please
Sorry issues with up loading photos

 

[Ryry11]

Results are amazing but I have a couple of questions:
1.) Is this a normal type of dusting for Meg's UC?
2.) Can you still do the cleaning pads on the fly with the Flex? how often?
3.) Should the LC Flat pads be getting warm while polishing? Does this mean I am putting too much pressure?
4.) Is it also normal for the aluminum head on the Flex to get very warm/hot during normal operation?

Sorry for all the questions. I had not had any of these issues with my DA polisher. I am not sure if all this is normal, part of the learning curve or I am doing something wrong.

Please provide a little feedback. I will upload photos of results shortly.Feed back please

I can't speak for uc as I haven't used it, but chances are you may be using too much product if you're getting really bad dusting. Play with the amount. Of product you use and you'll find what the right amount will be, that comes with experience.

With the flex, to clean the pad, you'll need a pad cleaning brush. Because of the forced rotation, you can't hold a towel over the pad while its spinning like you can with a da and remove the product. Instead, just turn the machine on and let a pad cleaning brush glide over the surface of the pad a couple times. You'll see the spent product dust off the pad. I like to do this after every section just to ensure a clean working pad.

Depending on the amount of correcting, the pad will get a little warm due to the pressure you're exerting on it. However, you shouldn't be throwing all your body weight on it, just a good firm pressure on the initial 2-3 passes for correction. Again, something you'll get the hang of the more you do it.

Yes, the head on the flex is notorious for getting red hot while operating, especially after hours of correction, so watch your hands!

Hope this helps

 

[zmanjohn]

Here are some of the results from my polishing. This is a daily driver, so I am not doing a full correction, but it looks sooo good, wife was really impressed when she saw how bad it was before.
Hope you like, I will post more later.
Before:

After:

Many more to come.

Ok, photos not working, images may be too large. Will try again later when I have a chance to correct size of images. but here is a link to the photos. Challenger Detail - AutogeekOnline Gallery

 

[zmanjohn]

I can't speak for uc as I haven't used it, but chances are you may be using too much product if you're getting really bad dusting. Play with the amount. Of product you use and you'll find what the right amount will be, that comes with experience.

With the flex, to clean the pad, you'll need a pad cleaning brush. Because of the forced rotation, you can't hold a towel over the pad while its spinning like you can with a da and remove the product. Instead, just turn the machine on and let a pad cleaning brush glide over the surface of the pad a couple times. You'll see the spent product dust off the pad. I like to do this after every section just to ensure a clean working pad.

Depending on the amount of correcting, the pad will get a little warm due to the pressure you're exerting on it. However, you shouldn't be throwing all your body weight on it, just a good firm pressure on the initial 2-3 passes for correction. Again, something you'll get the hang of the more you do it.

Yes, the head on the flex is notorious for getting red hot while operating, especially after hours of correction, so watch your hands!

Hope this helps

Thank you for your reply. I have been playing with the amount oc compound as well as I did purchase a pad cleaning brush, I guess I should have mentioned that. I was using and was seeing if the cotton towel cleaning on the fly worked better. I was cleaning every 2-3 panels, so thanks, I will try after every panel.
I will continue to work with it. As stated, very happy with results, polisher is very smooth and also give you a pretty good workout, can polish instead of going to gym. LOL
Thanks for your reply.

 

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Bill, for the dusting problem cut the speed back to 4 and don't raise it any higher. See what that gets you.

I get great results on speed 3 with FG400...

 

[HateSwirls]

I've been used UC for awhile now without problems, in fact it's one off the most friendly compounds to use.

Make sure the car is cool, use three small pea size drops,spread it as fast as you can then begins working it on speed five on the first two passes then down to speed four, don't over work it, you can always come back over it if need be after you inspect area.
Remember, little product is better than more.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hi Bill,

I looked at the code for your pictures and you're posting the URL address for the "page" the pictures are on and this won't work.

You need to place your cursor on the top of the picture and >right click< with your mouse.

This will pull up a "Dialog Box" and in it somewhere will be the words,


Address
(URL)

Across from that will the the URL Address for the picture, that's how the Internet knows where the picture is at kind of like you have a house address so the Post Office knows where your house is at.


Use your mouse cursor to highlight the entire URL Address for the picture, that would look like this for one of your pictures.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1947/medium/DSCF58121.JPG


Then place the above into Image Tags. Like this;

I explain all of this with "pictures" in my two articles here,

How to use Image Tags to insert a photo

How to insert an image from your photo gallery into your message


Once you do this a couple of times it all makes sense. Keep in mind, at one point in time I didn't know how to do all of this, I had to teach myself as no one wrote any articles for me...


:xyxthumbs:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I followed instructions and spray the pad one time about 6" away with the pad conditioner. Apply (4) dime size spots of UC, polish a 24" x 24" area,

When starting out, it's easy to learn and get your technique down by working smaller areas. Every set of directions I've ever read for any tool since I've been alive always tells people to work a 2 foot by 2 foot area and that's actually a pretty big area to work especially when you're brand new to a tool.

The larger the area, the better the chance the product you're working will flash evaporate making the product more difficult to work with and causing a dusting and even gumming-up issue.

Work a smaller area and you keep your product more liquid on the surface and everything is a lot easier.

Heck, all the Porter Cable, Meguiar's, Griot's garage DA Polisher instructions I've always read tell people to work a two foot x two foot area and that's HUGE for these types of tools, that's why I've always typed and taught smaller areas. It's really just common sense.

Results are amazing but I have a couple of questions:
1.) Is this a normal type of dusting for Meg's UC?

See above... work a smaller section.

2.) Can you still do the cleaning pads on the fly with the Flex? how often?

My article and technique on "Cleaning your pad on the fly", doesn't really work with the Flex like it works with a PC as the pad will grab the towel and rip it from your had.

Your picture of your pad in your gallery, this one,

You would clean that pad with a Nylon Bristle brush like a pad conditioning brush, also like I show in my how-to book the same way you see me using a pad conditioning brush on this Megs MF Pad. Keep things simple...

As for how often do you clean your pad? Recently this question was posted to our Facebook page for this video,

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xJH_MGgbLw]How to remove shallow RIDS and how to machine apply both a paint sealant and a finishing wax - YouTube[/video]

Here's the question...

how often do you typically do the 'on the fly' pad clean?


Here was my answer....

Common question. In a PERFECT world you clean your pad on the fly after each section you buff. By doing this you remove both spent product and removed paint. If you don’t clean your pad after buffing a section then you’re adding fresh product to a dirty pad and buffing the next section with all this gunk. In the REAL world, I clean my pad every other section. –Mike Phillips

3.) Should the LC Flat pads be getting warm while polishing? Does this mean I am putting too much pressure?

All pads will get warm and even hot from "pressure over time". It's caused by friction from the pad against the surface of the paint and sometimes from the motor transferring heat down to the pad via the drive spindle, although I think this is mostly related to PC 'style' tools.

If you're working neglected paint really hard from lots of pressure and high speeds, yes you will get your pads hot and this will wear them out faster. Like the saying goes...

More pads is better...

4.) Is it also normal for the aluminum head on the Flex to get very warm/hot during normal operation?

Yes, that's why there's a forward handle and a rear grip on the body of the tool.

Sorry for all the questions. I had not had any of these issues with my DA polisher. I am not sure if all this is normal, part of the learning curve or I am doing something wrong.

It's all perfectly normal and this is what this forum is all about... helping people that have purchased products from the AG store, (and really anywhere), learn how to get pro results.


:xyxthumbs:

 

[sproketser]

Congrats on new Flex , did you prime the pad before you start application ! I don t see it much on pics .

 

[zmanjohn]

Hi Bill,

I explain all of this with "pictures" in my two articles here,

How to use Image Tags to insert a photo

How to insert an image from your photo gallery into your message


Once you do this a couple of times it all makes sense. Keep in mind, at one point in time I didn't know how to do all of this, I had to teach myself as no one wrote any articles for me...


:xyxthumbs:

Mike,
Thanks for the links, I was looking for them last night, I guess I was so tired and a bit frustrated, I was not able to find them right away. Thought I was doing ti the right way, but we all know how that goes at times.
Appreciate the help.

Bill

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike,
Thanks for the links, I was looking for them last night, I guess I was so tired and a bit frustrated, I was not able to find them right away. Thought I was doing ti the right way, but we all know how that goes at times.
Appreciate the help.

Bill

Working with pictures on forums is a little confusing at first but once you figure out how the software works and what the "Internet" wants and then do it a few times it's pretty easy...

 

[zmanjohn]

When starting out, it's easy to learn and get your technique down by working smaller areas. Every set of directions I've ever read for any tool since I've been alive always tells people to work a 2 foot by 2 foot area and that's actually a pretty big area to work especially when you're brand new to a tool.

The larger the area, the better the chance the product you're working will flash evaporate making the product more difficult to work with and causing a dusting and even gumming-up issue.

Work a smaller area and you keep your product more liquid on the surface and everything is a lot easier.

Heck, all the Porter Cable, Meguiar's, Griot's garage DA Polisher instructions I've always read tell people to work a two foot x two foot area and that's HUGE for these types of tools, that's why I've always typed and taught smaller areas. It's really just common sense.




See above... work a smaller section.



My article and technique on "Cleaning your pad on the fly", doesn't really work with the Flex like it works with a PC as the pad will grab the towel and rip it from your had.

Your picture of your pad in your gallery, this one,

You would clean that pad with a Nylon Bristle brush like a pad conditioning brush, also like I show in my how-to book the same way you see me using a pad conditioning brush on this Megs MF Pad. Keep things simple...

As for how often do you clean your pad? Recently this question was posted to our Facebook page for this video,

How to remove shallow RIDS and how to machine apply both a paint sealant and a finishing wax - YouTube

Here's the question...

how often do you typically do the 'on the fly' pad clean?


Here was my answer....

Common question. In a PERFECT world you clean your pad on the fly after each section you buff. By doing this you remove both spent product and removed paint. If you don’t clean your pad after buffing a section then you’re adding fresh product to a dirty pad and buffing the next section with all this gunk. In the REAL world, I clean my pad every other section. –Mike Phillips







All pads will get warm and even hot from "pressure over time". It's caused by friction from the pad against the surface of the paint and sometimes from the motor transferring heat down to the pad via the drive spindle, although I think this is mostly related to PC 'style' tools.

If you're working neglected paint really hard from lots of pressure and high speeds, yes you will get your pads hot and this will wear them out faster. Like the saying goes...

More pads is better...





Yes, that's why there's a forward handle and a rear grip on the body of the tool.






It's all perfectly normal and this is what this forum is all about... helping people that have purchased products from the AG store, (and really anywhere), learn how to get pro results.


:xyxthumbs:

Mike,
Thanks again for the detailed instructions. I have a copy of your book and had it by my side. I was reading and re-reading, but it does not explain a about the flex. I am assuming due to the power and forced rotation that it would be treated like you would a rotary and part of the reason why I purchased this machine. I did also order a pad brush, so I have been using that as well, I just was not sure about technique, which you guys have been explaining. I just get a little confused as I am sure we all do just starting out, I have a lot more to learn and appreciate all the positive feedback..

Without this forum and you guys helping, guiding and willingness to spend time answering questions the learning curve for anything would be greatly increased and possibly even damage to customers cars. For this also I thank you and call those who participate.

I will continue to finish up the detail, and will post pictures along the way.

Thanks again to all..
Bill

 

[zmanjohn]

Congrats on new Flex , did you prime the pad before you start application ! I don t see it much on pics .

I did, but not in the pictures, sorry about that. I tried priming the pad as Mike had in is book, that did not seem to work well with the Meg's UC on the Flex, worked great with DA. I did do one area with M105, priming like that was key, again it worked great.
Pictures show more of priming with the pad conditioner, I wanted to see if that was better. What I did leave out and I should have stated was everything else I tried. I have 3 pads that I was rotating, I am just trying to figure out the best process and realize that different products require different process. Meg's for some compounds have a shorter working time than some Menzerna.
Thanks for the comment, sometimes we forget basics and many of you guys have been doing this way longer than I.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike,
Thanks again for the detailed instructions. I have a copy of your book and had it by my side. I was reading and re-reading, but it does not explain a about the flex.

The first edition was targeted at the Porter Cable "style" tools only as this is the first tool most people purchase when they move from working by hand to working by machine.

It was TOO complex try to write a how-to book that would actually do justice to showing how to use multiple "types" of tools PLUS have ALL the information in the book that's I included in the first edition.

Anyone that's read my how-to book, I hope you noticed how I laid a foundation that explains paint history and the sole purpose for this was so that the rest of the way through the book, once you understand that modern clear coats are THIN you will then understand why I stress the importance of using the least aggressive products to get the job done, how to CAREFULLY wash your car AFTER you've buffed it out and why to do a Test Spot before buffing out the entire car. Actually the how-to book is the most comprehensive and detailed book on the market on the topic of exterior car detailing using a Porter Cable style tool.

The NEW, second edition does include updated information and chapters on these tools,

• Rotary Buffers
• Cyclo Polishers
• Flex 3401 Polishers

My original idea was to write the first book on the tool that reached out to the largest market and then follow this with dedicated books for each of the different "types" of tools because it gets very complicated when you try to write anything of any VALUE for the different aspects of tools that work VERY differently than each other including the types of chemicals, pads and techniques used with different tools.

The only way a person would understand this is if,

A: They actually know how to use all the tools.
B: They tried to write a book on how to use all the tools.
​

Most all the how-to books on car detailing I've read in my life don't have any valuable information on how to actually use tools.

I am assuming due to the power and forced rotation that it would be treated like you would a rotary and part of the reason why I purchased this machine. I did also order a pad brush, so I have been using that as well, I just was not sure about technique, which you guys have been explaining. I just get a little confused as I am sure we all do just starting out, I have a lot more to learn and appreciate all the positive feedback..

Well you're doing fine. I know not everyone can attend one of my detailing boot camp classes but in these classes the learning curve is completely flattened out because I stand right in front of you and show you how to do pretty much everything with all the various tools.

Without this forum and you guys helping, guiding and willingness to spend time answering questions the learning curve for anything would be greatly increased and possibly even damage to customers cars. For this also I thank you and call those who participate.

I will continue to finish up the detail, and will post pictures along the way.

Thanks again to all..
Bill

Just to add... we do have a great forum and the reason it's great is because it attracts a very high caliber group of people that are willing to help with good, real-world information.


:xyxthumbs:

 

[sproketser]

I did, but not in the pictures, sorry about that. I tried priming the pad as Mike had in is book, that did not seem to work well with the Meg's UC on the Flex, worked great with DA. I did do one area with M105, priming like that was key, again it worked great.
Pictures show more of priming with the pad conditioner, I wanted to see if that was better. What I did leave out and I should have stated was everything else I tried. I have 3 pads that I was rotating, I am just trying to figure out the best process and realize that different products require different process. Meg's for some compounds have a shorter working time than some Menzerna.
Thanks for the comment, sometimes we forget basics and many of you guys have been doing this way longer than I.

We always learn mate . I ll need that lovely book from Mike one day . Love readings anyways .

 

[zmanjohn]

The first edition was targeted at the Porter Cable "style" tools only as this is the first tool most people purchase when they move from working by hand to working by machine.

It was TOO complex try to write a how-to book that would actually do justice to showing how to use multiple "types" of tools PLUS have ALL the information in the book that's I included in the first edition.

I understand completely, I work with many very complex machines and you have to make it simple for everyone to understand, this you have done very well..rops:

The NEW, second edition does include updated information and chapters on these tools,

• Rotary Buffers
• Cyclo Polishers
• Flex 3401 Polishers

Will have to add to my wish list now, you guys really know how to get us hooked, :joking:, line many others this is a way to relieve stress and put some shine on the world.

The only way a person would understand this is if,

A: They actually know how to use all the tools.
B: They tried to write a book on how to use all the tools.
​

Most all the how-to books on car detailing I've read in my life don't have any valuable information on how to actually use tools.

:iagree:, I have read a couple and I was hesitant to order yours at first, I am so glad I did and for anyone getting into this as a profession and or hobby, these are a must read, IMHO!

Well you're doing fine. I know not everyone can attend one of my detailing boot camp classes but in these classes the learning curve is completely flattened out because I stand right in front of you and show you how to do pretty much everything with all the various tools.

Mike, I would love to and plan too. My parents live near Ocala, about 3 hours away. I look at the dates and if I can get out of work might plan on dropping the wife and kids off and continuing on to Stuart for a couple of days. Price is well worth it. One day, I will be there...

Just to add... we do have a great forum and the reason it's great is because it attracts a very high caliber group of people that are willing to help with good, real-world information.

I just want to add one more comment, for me at the end of a very hard and bad day. I sit down and read through the posts here and in a very short period of time my attitude changes and it also helps to relieve my stress. Yes, these guys here are extremely high caliber, heck look at the work they do, :dblthumb2: and the dream cars.
All the positive feedback as well as recommendations, well worth the reads.
Sorry getting a little off subject. :xyxthumbs:

If pads have dried out will get back at it tonight. I will post updates.

Thanks to all...

 

[zmanjohn]

We always learn mate . I ll need that lovely book from Mike one day . Love readings anyways .

Yes, you got that right. I think I have gone through it twice, I am not starting to tab and highlight areas that I need to work on and remember. Best part is that I am a very hands on type of guy, the way it is written even if you have no understanding of detailing you will get it. As my old soccer coach used to tell us it is the basics, we all tend to over complicate things. The book helps to remind me of this also.

 

[sproketser]

Yes, you got that right. I think I have gone through it twice, I am not starting to tab and highlight areas that I need to work on and remember. Best part is that I am a very hands on type of guy, the way it is written even if you have no understanding of detailing you will get it. As my old soccer coach used to tell us it is the basics, we all tend to over complicate things. The book helps to remind me of this also.

Got it man ! Keep it on .

 

[zmanjohn]

Ok, just an update. tried all recommendations and here is what I came up with.
Primed pad, as I normally would for DA, added 3 pea size drops of compound and reduced area to 1 foot square area, still running at speed 5. Dusted less, so next section reduce speed to 4, dusting almost completely gone. Cleaned pad on fly with pad brush briefly after each section. This combo, worked very well for the rest of the passenger side. I went back to two areas that had been done the night before, still needed a little more correction work, but could not see due to lighting and that combo seemed to work the best.
I just have the front and rear bumpers to do at this point, IPA wipedown and put on Collinite 845. Will share photos when completed.

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions.:thankyousign: