Not your typical wheel cleaner question...

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WRAPT C5Z06

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With wheel cleaners like Sonax/Griot's are they actually removing iron like IronX, or is the color change for the cool factor? Does P21S Gel clean wheels the same way, just not change color?
 
This may be under-thinking things, but if iron was there when you started, and gone when you are done wouldn't it be removed?
 
Using the GG HD wheel cleaner for the first time the other day, the only areas where the cleaner changed color was when it hit the rotors. Based on that I'm assuming the wheel surfaces didn't have much, if any, iron built up on them (ceramic pads?) and that the color change isn't just a gimmick.
 
dont quote me on this but i might be like that mouthwash you would use as a kid that would show any plaque in your teeth before you brushed. point being it might just change color simply to show that they're are contaminants on the wheel so you can clean them.
 
Flannigan said:
This may be under-thinking things, but if iron was there when you started, and gone when you are done wouldn't it be removed?
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Obviously, yes, but that wasn't the point of my thread. I don't know if the color change is showing that iron is being removed, or it's just removing brake dust and looks cool. Is brake dust considered iron?? :dunno:

Basically, let's take P21S wheel Gel, does it remove iron like Griot's/Sonax, or is that an added benefit of the wheel cleaners that change color?
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
Obviously, yes, but that wasn't the point of my thread. I don't know if the color change is showing that iron is being removed, or it's just removing brake dust and looks cool. Is brake dust considered iron?? :dunno:

Basically, let's take P21S wheel Gel, does it remove Iron like Griot's/Sonax, or is that an added benefit of the wheel cleaners that change color?
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Oh ok, I see. In that case I don't know.
 
I dunno .... but believe Iron-X and Sonax do have ingredients specifically designed to work against metal particles and never heard of such ingredients in past wheel cleaners.
 
Let me answer your question (I think) with another question-Does the Finish Kare Step 2 iron remover change colors when it comes into contact with iron? I don't know. Griot's and Sonax may just make their product change colors, since we seeing is believing. It makes us feel better to see a change of some sort to know if a product is doing what it says or not.
That's my take on it. I'm no expert.
 
SRTSean said:
Using the GG HD wheel cleaner for the first time the other day, the only areas where the cleaner changed color was when it hit the rotors. Based on that I'm assuming the wheel surfaces didn't have much, if any, iron built up on them (ceramic pads?) and that the color change isn't just a gimmick.
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Yeah, it's not a gimmick, but I used it (Sonax FE) on two cars and it didn't work any better than any other pH neutral cleaner (P21S, original Griot's) and it didn't change color either, I'm presuming because of ceramic pads. If you've got conventional semi-metallic pad material (AFAIK almost everything today is ceramic, but what do I know) maybe it's a better match.

07 z-oh-6 said:
Obviously, yes, but that wasn't the point of my thread. I don't know if the color change is showing that iron is being removed, or it's just removing brake dust and looks cool. Is brake dust considered iron?? :dunno:

Basically, let's take P21S wheel Gel, does it remove iron like Griot's/Sonax, or is that an added benefit of the wheel cleaners that change color?
Click to expand...

The content of brake dust depends on the pad material, and traditional semi-mets certainly have some ferrous materials in them, and rotors are, with some high end exceptions, iron, and they do wear down some. I take the mfrs. at their word that the Griot's, IronX, and Sonax FE have a chemical in them which does "dissolve" iron and changes color as a result (I think when the Sonax first came out I read somewhere what the chemical is).

ziggo99 said:
Let me answer your question (I think) with another question-Does the Finish Kare Step 2 iron remover change colors when it comes into contact with iron? I don't know. Griot's and Sonax may just make their product change colors, since we seeing is believing. It makes us feel better to see a change of some sort to know if a product is doing what it says or not.
Click to expand...

FK Step 2, like Valugard step B, are acids which dissolve the iron (and no, they don't change color). As I noted above, these new products use a pH-neutral chemical to dissolve the iron (as opposed to the acids which are low pH).
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Yeah, it's not a gimmick, but I used it (Sonax FE) on two cars and it didn't work any better than any other pH neutral cleaner (P21S, original Griot's) and it didn't change color either, I'm presuming because of ceramic pads. If you've got conventional semi-metallic pad material (AFAIK almost everything today is ceramic, but what do I know) maybe it's a better match.



The content of brake dust depends on the pad material, and traditional semi-mets certainly have some ferrous materials in them, and rotors are, with some high end exceptions, iron, and they do wear down some. I take the mfrs. at their word that the Griot's, IronX, and Sonax FE have a chemical in them which does "dissolve" iron and changes color as a result (I think when the Sonax first came out I read somewhere what the chemical is).



FK Step 2, like Valugard step B, are acids which dissolve the iron (and no, they don't change color). As I noted above, these new products use a pH-neutral chemical to dissolve the iron (as opposed to the acids which are low pH).
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Perfect answers, thanks!

Let's take an alkaline wheel cleaner such as autoglym custom wheel cleaner. It's designed to be used with *delicate wheels*, yet it's not pH neutral. Is there more danger using AG CWC as opposed to Griot's HD or Sonax FE which are pH neutral?
 
the description just says for Griots HD that "it changes color as it releases brake dust and greasy grime from the wheels". it says "it turns red as it encounters soil". so i'm thinking its just a change to let you know its working. and maybe you have a wheel thats not really dirty this would definitely show you where the dirt is

remember going to the dentist as a kid they say go brush your teeth and then give you that little tablet that made your teeth turn red where you didn't brush so well i think its kind of like that. :D
 
02nissanISR said:
the description just says for Griots HD that "it changes color as it releases brake dust and greasy grime from the wheels". it says "it turns red as it encounters soil". so i'm thinking its just a change to let you know its working. and maybe you have a wheel thats not really dirty this would definitely show you where the dirt is

remember going to the dentist as a kid they say go brush your teeth and then give you that little tablet that made your teeth turn red where you didn't brush so well i think its kind of like that. :D
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I put in a call to Griots and talked to a customer service rep(not sure how much he knew), but he said the changing color is just showing the wheel cleaner is working, not removing iron.
 
The whole "color change" thing is due to a chemical reaction, and I don't think a wheel cleaner like P21S chemically reacts in that same manner.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
I put in a call to Griots and talked to a customer service rep(not sure how much he knew), but he said the changing color is just showing the wheel cleaner is working, not removing iron.
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So, for all we know, it could be changing colors by being exposed to oxygen, since the CS didn't go into what it's working on.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I take the mfrs. at their word that the Griot's, IronX, and Sonax FE have a chemical in them which does "dissolve" iron and changes color as a result (I think when the Sonax first came out I read somewhere what the chemical is).
...
FK Step 2, like Valugard step B, are acids which dissolve the iron (and no, they don't change color). As I noted above, these new products use a pH-neutral chemical to dissolve the iron (as opposed to the acids which are low pH).
Click to expand...
Even if it's only a film of iron dust, I can't believe that anything but acid (and I mean acid, not just vinegar) is going to dissolve it. Like any other dirt, it just needs to be loosened from the surface with some or other detergent ingredients.

Of course the colour-changing is a gimmick. If the wheels are clean afterwards and they feel smooth, the cleaner you used worked - colour change or not.
 
I did a test using Sonax wheel cleaner and Iron X shampoo (as that is all i have right now). i used the Sonax on the front driver side rim first and the Iron X on the passenger side. Waited until they changed color agitated with my wheel brush and rinsed. I then reversed the process and used the sonax on the passenger side rim and Iron X on the driver side rim. On the second application there was no color change after several minutes.

To me this indicates that both products remove or dissolve Iron particles. I can not say for sure if Sonax dissolves or removes them, but this test indicates there was no presence of iron after the initial usage of product.

i hope this helps (would have posted pictures but i dont have a working camera)
 
I have to admit the whole color changing thing is cool, but in this case it still seems functional.
 
Only sulphuric axid, nitric acid, etc. will dissolce iron. So these products are loosening iron powder (mixed with a lot of brake compound powder) from the wheel surfaces.
 
I'm trying to do a multi-quote but it's not working right, perhaps from some info I tried to cut-and-paste.

I don't know anything about that Autoglym wheel cleaner, and whether it's "safer" or not--clearly the Sonax/Griot's/IronX marketing is implying that a neutral pH cleaner is safer.

The color change thing isn't like that toothbrushing dye--I don't think that's an apt analogy. And the color change isn't from exposure to oxygen, because I've never gotten the Sonax to change color. (Which is perhaps why it doesn't seem to work any better for me than other mild wheel cleaners).

Another site that sells the Sonax says that it "contains unique chemical ingredients that effectively dissolve the sintered iron by forming a water soluble iron complex". From the list of ingredients at the Sonax website, it must be one (or a combination of some) of the following:

Sodium thioglycolate
Sodium gluconate
Sodium citrate
Sodium hexyl sulfate
Xanthan
Limonene
Methylisothiazolinone
Benzylisothiazolinon
 
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