Older Cars: Dump $$$ or Trade In ???

yakky said:
I'd find someone that knows how to troubleshoot driveability problems. That may or may not be a person at your dealership. Without typing up an essay, today's "mechanics" are nothing more than parts changers. There is no financial incentive for them to diagnose the problem. Replacing parts is paid at "book time", something that can usually be done in 1/4-1/2 the time the book says, they replace a part in 15 minutes and get paid for an hour. Diagnostics are billed at actual time. Why would they want to get paid half as much? With proper diagnostics, the dealership sells a lot less parts. A lose-lose for the dealership.

If they replace parts and it doesn't fix the problem, you still pay! And then you come back for more work!
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So right.

A well-known (in So.Ca.) auto repair place wanted approx. $600 to replace two upstream O2 sensors on my 2003 V6 Ford Van; Ford wanted even more. They even said they had to charge me $60 extra to remove the engine cover. Went to O'Reilly's and the night manager told me to order the parts (same parts as they would use at half the price) and the special socket, go home and watch 4 or 5 YouTube videos (after which I would know as much as everyone else about O2 sensors), and they would call me in the morning when the parts showed up. We all knew the codes

They called me at 10 o'clock the next morning. By 10:30 am, I had removed the engine cover, replaced both O2 sensors, buttoned everything back up, and gone back into the store to thank them profusely for saving me $400. Having never done this before, I did all of it within 30 minutes. The auto repair place or Ford would have had me sit there for 2 1/2 or 3 hours to help me justify, in my mind, the $600 to $800 charge.

Lesson learned.:iagree:Give yakky's idea a try.
 
Well here is an update for anyone interested. The Nissan dealer has had the car all day and can't figure out what the problem is (issue is not intermittent). So, they called me to OK more $$$ to diagnose it.

They told me it "had a whole bunch of codes and the had to trace wires". When I brought it there it had no codes ( scanned it) and no CEL light ever came on during this.

This is exactly what I was afraid of.
 
yakky said:
I'd find someone that knows how to troubleshoot driveability problems. That may or may not be a person at your dealership. Without typing up an essay, today's "mechanics" are nothing more than parts changers. There is no financial incentive for them to diagnose the problem. Replacing parts is paid at "book time", something that can usually be done in 1/4-1/2 the time the book says, they replace a part in 15 minutes and get paid for an hour. Diagnostics are billed at actual time. Why would they want to get paid half as much? With proper diagnostics, the dealership sells a lot less parts. A lose-lose for the dealership.

If they replace parts and it doesn't fix the problem, you still pay! And then you come back for more work!
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I know. I used to work in the business. But I don't have Nissans Consult II machine ($$$) and was hoping they would possibly have seen this issue before, as this engine (3.5L) is widely used.
 
swanicyouth said:
Well here is an update for anyone interested. The Nissan dealer has had the car all day and can't figure out what the problem is (issue is not intermittent). So, they called me to OK more $$$ to diagnose it.

They told me it "had a whole bunch of codes and the had to trace wires". When I brought it there it had no codes ( scanned it) and no CEL light ever came on during this.

This is exactly what I was afraid of.
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Well, as Yakky said...and you used to be in the business so you know that there are some people that are good at troubleshooting and some that aren't. I'd yank it out of there and find another dealer/shop. I have seen some really ridiculous stuff at dealers.

You got rid of your vacuum tester? Well, I haven't used mine in ages either, but you can borrow it if you want (presuming I can find it).

EDIT: You DID let them know that you are an ex-mechanic? If they are doing the dealer rip-off thing (rather than just stupidity, which it could be), they usually are less likely to do that if they think you know something about cars.
 
swanicyouth said:
I gunned it and the extra pressure broke up an already weak catalyst material from its mounting (internally) and plugged up the catalyst exit.
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A lot of times you can hit the cats with your hand or a rubber mallet and hear the honeycomb material rattling around when that stuff brakes up. I have a good friend that works at Midas and one day at his shop we were BS'n while he was working. I asked why he pounded on the cats with a mallet? "if there bad and rattle, I might make a $ale"
 
RedXray said:
A lot of times you can hit the cats with your hand or a rubber mallet and hear the honeycomb material rattling around when that stuff brakes up. I have a good friend that works at Midas and one day at his shop we were BS'n while he was working. I asked why he pounded on the cats with a mallet? "if there bad and rattle, I might make a $ale"
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Yeah, I tried it. No noise. Thanks for the suggestion though. Dealer is still trying to diagnose the problem. At least I don't feel like a dumb ass for not figuring it out.

Setec Astronomy said:
Well, as Yakky said...and you used to be in the business so you know that there are some people that are good at troubleshooting and some that aren't. I'd yank it out of there and find another dealer/shop. I have seen some really ridiculous stuff at dealers.

You got rid of your vacuum tester? Well, I haven't used mine in ages either, but you can borrow it if you want (presuming I can find it).

EDIT: You DID let them know that you are an ex-mechanic? If they are doing the dealer rip-off thing (rather than just stupidity, which it could be), they usually are less likely to do that if they think you know something about cars.
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I think I have a vacuum gauge at my moms house. They have the car now, thanks for the offer... I'll give them a little more time. I'm expecting them to call tomorrow with some crazy estimate to hang a bunch of sensors telling me that "may" fix it. I'm not going that route, because I know there were no codes or CEL when I brought it in, and no sensors would explain the crazy noise.

I'm looking online at 2012 Xterras... I may just take the easy way out.

Too bad there isn't a Nissan forum like AG. Then I know I could figure it out with everyone's help.
 
swanicyouth said:
Yeah, I tried it. No noise. Thanks for the suggestion though. Dealer is still trying to diagnose the problem. At least I don't feel like a dumb ass for not figuring it out.




I think I have a vacuum gauge at my moms house. They have the car now, thanks for the offer... I'll give them a little more time. I'm expecting them to call tomorrow with some crazy estimate to hang a bunch of sensors telling me that "may" fix it. I'm not going that route, because I know there were no codes or CEL when I brought it in, and no sensors would explain the crazy noise.

I'm looking online at 2012 Xterras... I may just take the easy way out.

Too bad there isn't a Nissan forum like AG. Then I know I could figure it out with everyone's help.
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Maybe

The Nissan Path :: The World Wide Nissan Pathfinder Owners Forum :: R51 / R50 / WD21 :: www.TheNissanPath.com

or

Pathfinder Forum / QX4 Forum

or maybe

Pathfinder - Nissan Forums: Nissan Forum

Just trying to help.:)
 
I will be contrarian. I know you said you didn't want to have another payment, if you credit is good money will never be this cheap again. I have heard of 1.5% to 1.9% loans if you qualify. Cash is king and this would make sense. My $0.2.
 
Thanks everyone for your suggestions, that's why this place is great. I posted on all the Nissan forums, nothing much came of it. I actually got a ton more better suggestions and advice here. That's why I posted here.

The cats on this vehicle are buried right off the exhaust manifolds. The Nissan gurus say you have to remove the manifolds. I have the factory service manual, it offers no procedure to R&R cats... But I'm still not sure that's the issue, dealer still has it and hasn't called back.

Loans are cheap now, so that's good. But after this, I'm not sure I want another Nissan.
 
They finally got it figured out, its the....CATS! the want SIX GRAND for complete Nissan exhaust. Everything (except manifolds) including 4 o2 sensors.

That price seems crazy for an 01 Pathfinder 4x4 with 104k. However, over 5k is just parts. The service writer is getting me prices with AFTERMARKET parts, which are going for about $1300 on the Internet. , so I'm guess between 2-2.5k.

In a way I'm relieved because its just bolt on parts. The guy said they dropped the resonators and the where all broken inside. The resonators are post/secondary cats on this vehicle.

I knew the cat back exhaust was in bad shape and needed to be replaced, so they are replacing that as well.the dealer said they actually drove it with the resonators off and it was OK.

I'll post follow up to for anyone following this story.
 
Well that sounds like mostly good news! :)

Exhaust is something that you don't need the dealer for at least. OTOH, muffler shops are known for being "hacks", so it's a two-edged sword. It is possible to find a good one though. I might would check around with a few calls to cut that labor in half. Most shops would be happy to get $500 for a days work, plus they'll make at least 10% on the parts.

Glad you're keeping it though! ;)
 
cardaddy said:
Well that sounds like mostly good news! :)

Exhaust is something that you don't need the dealer for at least. OTOH, muffler shops are known for being "hacks", so it's a two-edged sword. It is possible to find a good one though. I might would check around with a few calls to cut that labor in half. Most shops would be happy to get $500 for a days work, plus they'll make at least 10% on the parts.

Glad you're keeping it though! ;)
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Thanks everyone. This is the first time I've seen cats fail acutely and cause a drivability issue, its usually over time.

I agree about the muffler shop hacks. It's worth it to pay more to me to get it done right, even if its significantly more. Hopefully this dealer will do I right using aftermarket parts. Still waiting for a call back on a price with aftermarket parts. But, now that I know that is what it is, I'm going to keep it.
 
I'll update this thread for anyone who is interested. I got the dealer down to $3800 to fix it. Even at that price I was still considering trading it in for a 210 Pathfinder or new Xterra. I went and looked at their stock. All the PFs were black or grey. Not a color I want.

The $3800 includes all exhaust, cats, resonators from the manifold back, - these parts are aftermarket. It also includes 4 new Nissan Oxygen sensors ($750), the initial diagnosis costs ($300), and all the labor to do the repair.

While I know I'm being hosed on the price (dealer $$$). I did get a price from a trusted area garage (I have never used them). They quoted me $2k without the o2 senders. They also needed 10 days before they could work on the car.

While that seems like a bargain dollar wise, I believe changing the o2 sensors (all 4) is a good idea while your in there, and I also believe using Nissan o2 sensors is a good idea. As, the vehicle has 104k on it, and I have no idea if the sensors are original (I owned it since 84k).

So, if I took it to the Indy shop, it would cost me:

$2k (repair)
$750 Nissan o2 sensors
$300 Pay Nissan dealer for diag time
$150 get it towed to Indy garage
Guys working on my PF that have little or no experience with this particular vehicle (R50 Pathfinder)
+
__________

~ $3200

Repair @ Nissan dealer = $3700 (complete)

I'm hoping the extra $500 is good money spent, just in case something else "pops up", as tends to happen on old cars. Maybe if that happens, I can get a bit of "help" out of them. Also now I have sort of a relationship with them, if any future repairs pop up like this I can't handle at home. The Indy shop doesn't specialize in exhaust, they said they could do it if "no welding was involved). That wasn't very confidence inspiring. I looked for a local exhaust shop, but couldn't really find anything but Midas and Meineke (No Way!)

As it stood, a 2001 Pathfinder with clogged cats and 104k miles on it was pretty much worthless as a trade in I'm sure. - Regardless how great condition it's in. The sales people from the dealer were calling me non stop to try and get me to trade it in, but wouldn't give me a trade in dollar value unless I was at the dealer, which means to me they were going to give me nothing. They told me "my presence at the dealer could facilitate that" - whatever that means. That was a huge turn off to me, they had the car, why couldn't they just give me a number? I hate car salesmen.

I went to the dealer and browsed their used 4x4s incognito, as they didn't know me by site at this point. Quite frankly, most of the used SUVs that were 2-3 years old were pretty scratched up and in less than perfect condition. A big deal breaker for me, were none of the colors were desirable to me. Everything is black or grey. I much prefer blue or red, or even white or silver - anything but black or grey.

Well, the dealer will have the car a few days until its fixed. We will see what happens.
 
:iagree:
I think you made a good choice. For the extra $500, you get the piece of mind of dealer techs (for whatever that's worth) and dealer warranty for the work done. It's worth something.

I'm impressed so many here came up with cats as a major possible source of the problem

I'm glad you've got a resolution finally. It helps with peace of mind.:)
 
That was a huge turn off to me, they had the car, why couldn't they just give me a number? I hate car salesmen that do that
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Fixed that for ya.. ;)

I hate salesmen that do that too. :(
 
I agree, for the difference you are MUCH better to have the dealer do the work.

Funny story; One of my dealerships upse do be a Mitsubishi dealership. Well I was dropping one off close by and a guy calls, his Eclipse had been at a Honda/Acura independent shop for TWO WEEKS with them trying to figure out what was wrong. Back then you had to have manufacturer specific code readers for most of the codes.

So I told the owner I'd run it over there for $55 as it was just a few miles away. Dropped him off with the car and ran to get another one for the dealership. We had been talking on the way over about how at the place his brother worked (the Honda/Acura shop) they said it was "throwing a code" but they were unsure what that code meant. (In other words, they didn't have the chip for the Mit's in their Snap-On code reader.) I told him I bet the Mitsubishi dealership could get it fixed fairly quickly. It was a smaller dealership, but the only one anywhere NEAR Atlanta and all points south of I20 and their guys are constantly getting new certifications.

So anyhow, I go and get yet another Eclipse and get back to the dealership about an hour later and the guy is PULLING OUT OF THE DRIVEWAY! I honked at him and stopped, ran over there and asked him what it was. He said "they read the code and had it fixed in 45 minutes". Needless to say he was a happy guy, and NEVER took his Mitsubishi to a Honda shop again!

So YES you did good!!! ;)

I feel your pain about looking over the used cars. What I've found is if you want a specific car, go find their 'buyer' and tell him what you want. They buy most everything at auction, get VERY LITTLE as trades that they keep. Much easier to have them hand pick a car at auction than try to buy whatever you can find on the lot.

When we bought the 98 4Runner for my son we got lucky. We were in getting service on the Denali and decided to check out what they had 'up on the hill'. Didn't want something that cost a fortune, and if I could get away with it, nothing that I need full coverage on. Just so happens that they took it in on trade BUT were planning on taking it to auction. It was a ONE owner, had all the service records in the glove box, even the guys BIRTH CERTIFICATE was in there! :eek: At the time it had 141K on it, new brakes, timing belt had been done, new U joints, etc. Never been wrecked and the paint looks great all over. (Even the swirls were not that bad, go figure.) What was wrong with it? Faded wood trim inside, which is an easy enough fix. The biggest thing though was the valve cover gaskets leaking. Known problem on those things btw.

I pulled out my 'Black Book' and went inside to talk to them about it. He hit me with the typical $7995 price and asked what I was trading. I grabbed my checkbook, signed a check, said I was doing a cash deal and told him I'd give him $5300 out the door, tax and all. PLUS a full tank of gas! Then I went about telling him how much it was going to cost to get the valve cover gaskets done ($850 but I used THEIR prices ;) ) and when they take it to auction they'll never get that much for it. Needless to say he took my offer. Heck, they are still asking AND GETTING $1000 more for them than I paid for this one. Had it not been a one owner I'd probably not bought it, but I knew I could get it fixed for $350 including new belts and a tune-up. :)
 
Well finally got the car back. I think it took about 11 days. Everything was not what I expected - Is it ever ??? Originally the Nissan dealer came at me with a 6k estimate that included full Nissan exhaust (full manifold back), cats, resonators, and 4 o2 sensors.

I asked for a price with aftermarket parts - assuming it would be the same estimate, just with all aftermarket parts. As, I couldn't see putting 6k into a vehicle that only has a $4800 trade in value (dealer trade in) in Kelly Blue Book. What I got was a hybrid estimate that included NISSAN resonators (@ $617.79 x 2 !!!) and aftermarket cats only. No o2 sensors for some reason. Also, the exhaust was NOT replaced after the resonators. I never actually SAW the estimate, it was done over the phone.

I could have purchased all parts (including 4 o2 sensors) online from manifold back (all aftermarket - including cats) for about $1600. I guess I should have went there and inspected the work order and looked at the price of every part.

The funny thing is, I've been in this Nissan parts department about 10-15 times prior to buy parts and I always saw many aftermarket parts boxes being delivered from a parts house for rotors, starters, struts, brakes, etc... I always thought it was odd they weren't using NISSAN parts.

The resonators are Nissan for sure, as I looked at them and the look nothing like what is available in the aftermarket. It's just crazy that I spend $1250 for Nissan resonators when I could have got them online for under $300 as aftermarket parts.

Well, the truck is 100% fixed and does drive fine. I'm too tired to complain or question why they went this route. It's done now and I don't see much recourse.

Here is the bill:

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One thing that was interesting was the service advisor commented that he never saw a Pathfinder that clean before and in that great shape. As, I'm driving a 100,000 mile daily driver with my best effort of a show car detail. He said many techs came to look at it for that reason as well. They couldn't get over how clean it was for being 12 years old and having 100k.

I guess I pretty much got what I expected. I don't have any relationships with any local garages, as outside of State Inspection, I always fix my car myself. So, I went to the dealer figuring I'd pay a whole boat load of money and hoping that would mean it was fixed right. It is fixed right, but I just didn't get a lot for my money. I was saving that money for Detail Fest, so I can't go this year.

Maybe I'll by myself the new BlackFire Wax to cheer myself up.
 
Yeah...well. The dealers always rape you. Friend paid $100 diagnostic fee for an electrical problem, they tacked on a $5 hazardous waste disposal charge--??

Cars are so much better today than they used to be (stainless exhaust, long maint intervals, etc.), but it still hurts when you have a big expense like this.

I don't know about that wax...when I sent the link to my friend Jr. she said "it looks like shoe polish", lol.
 
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