hernandez.art13
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Pinnacle vs Meg.
- Thread starter Dodgeman
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Ohio Detailing
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hernandez.art13
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http://youtu.be/d7Re3CRrr7c
3:43
^ this takes hand applied wax to a different level (pretty amazing work and nice to see too)
3:43
^ this takes hand applied wax to a different level (pretty amazing work and nice to see too)
Ohio Detailing
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I still don't vibe with the "hand" waxing... I like the concept, and even the execution and the look... but, the human hand, especially a working man's hand, will never compare to a special engineered composite foam applicator.
Anyway, here's a cool video of a 100 hour Enzo detail: Topaz Detailing London - Ferrari Enzo Detail (120 hours) - YouTube
hernandez.art13
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Yeah true, I do everything I can by machine. Still looks pretty cool though lol.
Ohio Detailing
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It's odd that the world's "best" detailers are all (I saw several videos last night) doing the hand-application. Makes zero, and I mean ZERO, sense to me. I just looked at my own hands, and they are dry, callused, rough meat-claws, haha! Not something I want to be rubbing and wiping and massaging over something I just spent days or hours correcting and buffing. Truly odd.
Junkman2008
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Thank you for cleaning that up. My follow up video to the 'guess the wax' video states exactly how I feel about waxes. I have yet to see one sailor on any ship in the Navy putting wax on the brass in order to make it shine. I have yet to see one Marine or Army soldier putting wax on their boots to make them shine. I have yet to see one person use wax on their exhaust tips in order to make them shine. I have yet to see one person use wax to make jewelry or aluminum wheels shine. Why is that?
Because polish=shine, wax=protection. Period.
rops:I was right. Thank youThank you for cleaning that up. My follow up video to the 'guess the wax' video states exactly how I feel about waxes. I have yet to see one sailor on any ship in the Navy putting wax on the brass in order to make it shine. I have yet to see one Marine or Army soldier putting wax on their boots to make them shine. I have yet to see one person use wax on their exhaust tips in order to make them shine. I have yet to see one person use wax to make jewelry or aluminum wheels shine. Why is that?
Because polish=shine, wax=protection. Period.
michelliot
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I don't know about "Period" Junkman,
I have seen armed service personnel and civilians alike, put wax on their heads to make them shine.
Don't know what pads, compounds or polishers were used beforehand.
..........Elliot
I have seen armed service personnel and civilians alike, put wax on their heads to make them shine.
Don't know what pads, compounds or polishers were used beforehand.
..........Elliot
Junkman2008
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I can put baby oil on my head to make it shine. Does that mean that baby oil should be used on car paint? I know for a fact that baby oil will make paint shine, while collecting every dust particle on the planet.
I think that I will stick with my 'period'.
WantcarPerfect
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I tend to agree with Junkman's period. However, many people do not understand the difference between a sealant, a wax, a cleaning wax and a AIO sealant. Where a pure wax or sealant will not add shine but only protect, a AIO or a cleaning wax will add shine because it also polishes. Most "Geeks" understand this difference, however many novices look at these posts to learn how to take care of their car. Sometimes we may need to be a little more clear for them.
Junkman is a true Marine, if your head needs shinning use what you have to get the job done! Oorah !
Junkman is a true Marine, if your head needs shinning use what you have to get the job done! Oorah !
Junkman2008
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Outstanding clarification. You're right, the casual forum member who doesn't understand the difference between the type of products you've mentioned will walk away scratching their head just reading what you've posted. Outstanding clarification. I will add that to my explanation. I need to keep those AIO products in mind when explaining myself.
Semper Fi.
Mike Phillips
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I have at least two videos on how to hand apply waxes and sealants but anyone that knows me knows I always do everything by machine unless it's just not practical.
That said, some people like to work by hand for a number of reasons, sometimes just as a form of relaxation and/or therapy when they're working on their pride and joy. Kind of an escape from the rat race.
I machine everything on my personal truck. Even the a-pillars and window frames.
As for a difference in waxes, I have a very exhaustive article that explains the difference between what I call,
Cleaner/Wax and Finishing Waxes.
Take my word for it, the article goes into more depth than most people can digest.
The Difference Between a Cleaner/Wax and a Finishing Wax
Subtitle: How To Choose The Right Wax or Paint Sealant for your Detailing Project
While I agree it's the polishing process that creates both shine and increases gloss and most important clarity or richness of color in the case of a single stage paint, waxes, sealants and now "coatings" do two things that are very important to most people,
1. Create a uniform appearance over all the body panels.
Polishing does this with polishing oils but when the oils come off, the uniformity is lost. A quality wax, sealant or coating creates a uniform appearance and makes the uniform appearance last longer because waxes, sealants and coatings by their very nature are NOT water soluble.
2. Maximizes the longevity of the "look".
The other important reason to most people is the longevity reason and I touched on this above, it has to do with waxes, sealants and coatings being a type of water-proofing. The lock in the results, (shine, clarity, gloss, depth, richness of color), and help these results to endure when exposed to,
- Inclement weather
- Repeated washing
- Repeated wiping with anything that's liquid
I've met guys that believe paint should only be polished, that waxes, sealants and/or coatings don't add anything or improve the results if polishing is done correctly and to some degree they are right, in part because of the INCREDIBLY great polishes on the market today there were not available just 10 years ago or so...
But MOST quality polishes are also Pro Grade, and that means most are body shop safe, this means there are no ingredients in the polishes that can cause surface adhesion issues when used on a fresh paint environment, aka a body shop, and/or won't prevent the out-gassing of solvents in fresh paint.
They are water soluble. You can wash the compound or polish residue off at a body shop after buffing out a car to get the splatter out of door jambs or cracks and crevices without contaminating a shop. In the same way when the car is washed, wiped or exposed to wet weather, the oils that help create the shine will come off.
A wax, coating or sealant can cause surface adhesion problems if used inside a fresh paint environment and can seal fresh paint and hinder out-gassing. (I have articles on this if anyone wants to read them just ask). Waxes, sealants and coatings are water insoluble.
Me?
When I drove my Jimmy everyday I used Optimum GPS a CLEANER/WAX (by machine), on it about once a week and this cleaned, polished and protected the paint. Everyone said it was crazy shiny. And the reason I used a cleaner/wax is because my Jimmy was too big to park inside a garage so it naturally gets dirty paint.
See my recent article on dirty paint and the importance of periodically using a polish,paintt cleaner or cleaner/wax here,
Here's why you need to polish paint...
My new truck came to me HAMMERED.
I documented all the damage to the paint in the below write-up. Together with a team of guys we removed the swirls and other damage and created a show car finish.
1987 Chevy 4x4 Monster Truck "Before & After" Pictures
Now I tend to use nothing but finishing waxes on the paint. Before I apply the wax though, I first inspect it for contaminants and in most cases machine polish the paint with either a fine cut polish, an ultra fine cut polish or a paint cleaner and the reason for this is to make sure the paint absolutelyley clean and clear before applying something with no cleaning abiltiy. Like you see here,
Bouncers Capture the Rapture Monster Truck Detail
Review & How To: Auto Finesse Rejuvenate & Passion Luxury Car Wax
As for shine?
If you do the right prep work and use products with good abrasive technology then you can make anything shine before you get to wax application... it just becomes a matter of how long to you want it to last?
We buffed this High Voltage Yellow Scion out over a year ago before we used it in a video with my buddies from Meguiar's...
Here's the write-up...
Video & Pictures - GTechniq Makeover - 2012 High Voltage Yellow Scion tC 7.0
Here's the car "after" we removed all the swirls and water spots. Besides incredible gloss and shine the paint has a UNIFORM APPEARNCE.
And over a year later the paitn still looked incredible. The key was we used a "coating" which doesn't really wear off like wax and the owner only took the car through touchless washes, thus no swirls or scratches...
Look at the paint in the video... it still looked great one year later after leaving our garage.
Video: How to use Meguiar's D114 & D115 Rinse Free Express Washes & Waxes
How to use Meguiar's D114 & D115 Rinse Free Express Washes & Waxes
[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=cICbdJocUI4"]How to use Meguiar's D114 & D115 Rinse Free...[/video]
Waxes, Sealants and Coatings create a uniform appearance over all the body panels so the big picture after the final wipe is a beautiful finish.
Waxes, Sealatns and Coatings extend the the shine, gloss, clarity, depth and richness of color created by the polishihng process.
michelliot
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Don't get me wrong Junkman....I'm in total agreement that "polishing shines and waxes/sealants protect." Now when Mike Phillips expresses above that wax/sealants create a uniform appearance over the whole vehicle, could waxes be filling in any imperfections (not that his should have any) that might exist on the surface.
In fact, people might "believe" that their vehicles are "shinier" because miniscule imperfections on the surface are being filled in with wax thus creating less light diffusion.
Curious as to your feelings,
elliot
In fact, people might "believe" that their vehicles are "shinier" because miniscule imperfections on the surface are being filled in with wax thus creating less light diffusion.
Curious as to your feelings,
elliot
Junkman2008
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Here's the deal. When you look at damaged paint, light is being reflected in a million directions. The light is actually bouncing off every scratch in the paint. Any product that you use or anything that you do to DECREASE the amount of damage that the light bounces off of is going to make the paint appear to be more shiny. Be that a filler, rounding off the edges of the scratches or eliminating them all together, these things will cause the paint to appear to be more shiny. Look at the two examples below. The damaged paint throws off a huge flash ball when shot with the flash of the camera. That's light bouncing off all the scratches. Once I fixed it, the intensity of the flash bulb is captured so clearly that you can see the chrome lens of my camera. That's because the light is now bouncing in one direction, depending on the angle of the flash.
The intensity of my flash makes seeing the difference very easy. So does the sun and the overhead parking lights at your supermarket at night. When the light source only bounces in one direction, that will cause the paint on your vehicle to look deep as the Atlantic ocean.
Polishing alone is how I get that look on my paint. These pictures are with no wax whatsoever. Notice how close I am to the paint.
Now know this. I am not trying to discredit anything that Mike or anyone else has posted as I don't know nearly as much about this stuff as some people do. I spend way too much time chasing skirts to learn and frankly, the deep stuff makes me glass over and start snoring! All I am offering is my mindset as I see things with my own eyes and how I go about getting the look that I want. After all, I like the way my paint sparkles in the eyes of those pretty women and they seem to like it too.
Ohio Detailing
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I have at least two videos on how to hand apply waxes and sealants but anyone that knows me knows I always do everything by machine unless it's just not practical.
Awesome post as always Mike!
I didn't type my post well enough though... I actually meant applying wax with your hands and fingers, dipping your tips into a jar of wax, and rubbing it onto the surface of the car.
In my last post I mentioned how confused I was that many videos on YouTube, some of the world's most renowned detailers we using this technique.
Here is a video of one detail where the detailer used a wax that cost almost $4,000: HERE
Here is another video of a $1mm+ Hyper Car receiving a 100-hour paint correction detail, only to be topped and finalized with a hand/finger wax application: HERE [8 minutes 15 seconds]
Junkman2008
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That's what I thought you were talking about and the first person I thought of was Paul Dalton.
Mike Phillips
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First: I consider Paul Dalton a good friends and I admire his skill as well as his marketing savvy. I think he inspires others to follow in his path to be more successful in their detailing business and to me that's a sign of a person that leads by example. It's also positive. It's real easy to find negative people on forums.
My buddy pj from Dodo Juice likes to apply Dodo Juice Carnauba waxes by hand and I love pj! And all his work looks phenomenal. Check this out...
1957 Chevrolet Bel Air - Remove Swirls - Modeled by Kristin
PJ shows us his technique of working the wax over the paint with a gentle touch...
And of course... the car came out beautiful....
It's not my business if other guys want to apply a wax, sealant or fill-in-the-blank by bare hand to car paint but I'm a Machine Guy. I do everything possible by machine because the machine always does a better job faster. It is my opinion and experience that the human hand cannot compete with the results you can achieve by machine. I carry this over to wetsanding too. Anytime I can machine sand I will instead of hand sanding because the machine does a better job.
If I thought working with your bare hands to apply wax to a car I would have included a chapter on this procedure in both my first and second editions of my how-to book but I didn't.
You will however find chapters on how to machine apply waxes and sealants and lots of information on this topic.
Read any of the write-ups for cars I detail personally or detail as a team here at Autogeek and we always apply everything by machine UNLESS it's a coating and with coatings you pretty much have to apply this by hand. That said, I have tried to apply Opti-Coat II by machine.
Second: Sometimes words make a huge difference, for example to use the word,
Bare
As in bare hands would completely get your message across. As a long time poster to detailing discussion forums and a veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wax Wars I've learned to choose each word I type very carefully as there is always a handful of guys trying to find just a single mistake to try to take others down. Ridiculous but true.
On the topic of rubbing down paint with your bare hands, I wrote my opinion based upon real-world experience back in 2007, (probably further back but I found a post in 2007).
I'd like to preface what I wrote with two comments first...
1. I love this quote from my good friend, Pro Detailer and Detailing Instructor Renny Doyle.
If it's on your skin it's in you
So if you're going to do a bare hand rub-down with ANY company's product, maybe give them a phone call and ask them,
A: Do you recommend applying your products using only your bare hand?
B: Are all the ingredients, not just the waxy substance, in your product safe for extended contact with your skin.
It will take you about an hour or more to "carefully" BARE HAND apply a coat of wax to an average size car. (If' you're doing this for therapy, it might take you longer).
B: Are all the ingredients, not just the waxy substance, in your product safe for extended contact with your skin.
It will take you about an hour or more to "carefully" BARE HAND apply a coat of wax to an average size car. (If' you're doing this for therapy, it might take you longer).
2. I strongly recommend and encourage EVERYONE to experiment and test for yourself the technique of rubbing car paint down with a wax using only your bare hands.
Why?
So your opinion, whether you think it's a valid technique or not, is based upon real-world experience, not conjecture, or theory, or hypothetical imagination, etc.
Wax a car with your bare hands and then make up your own mind. Then when you "post" about it you're opinion will carry more weight.
Make sense?
Okay, so here's what I wrote back on March 28th, of 2007. Note I reference a car I bare hand applied wax to in 1991, way before the Internet was around and LONG before discussion forum software like you're on right now was invented.
I'm not sure when the bare hand technique re-emerged on the Internet but I did this back in 1991, that's 22 years ago.
This is on the Meguiar's Online Discussion Forum, see post #
Waxing by Hand
The question was asked...
d.mopar said:
And below was and is my answer...
Mike Phillips said:It's a marketing strategy about creating the perception of;
- Unique
- Special
- Exclusive
- Reserved
- Aristocratic
- Fill-in-the-blank
Back in about 1991 I actually waxed a car that I had buffed out first by machine, (rotary buffer), and then bare-hand applied two coats of M26 Liquid wax. That is I used my bare hand to apply the wax. I mostly did this to see what it was like, to see if there were any benefit to using your bare hand to apply a wax to the paint on a car.
In my opinion, for whatever that is worth... there was no benefit at all..
At least no benefit that made it better than using a normal, foam hand wax applicator pad or a foam buffing pad on a machine. I have never used my bare hand to apply a wax to a car since then and I've worked on a lot of cars. A foam wax applicator pad can absorb, in this case absorb some wax, (or a paint sealant), and then when you press on the foam just a little it will release some product enabling you to spread it out. You skin can't absorb and hold a little wax, (or paint sealant), like a quality foam applicator pad and so pressing on your skin, or pressing your skin against the paint won't release any wax or paint sealant, you have to go back to the source and get some more wax or paint sealant back onto your hand to continue spreading product.
There was one tiny benefit to applying wax with a bare hand and that was using your sense of touch if you sensed or felt any kind of particle between your hand and the paint you could stop and remove the offending particle. Not sure I've ever seen this pointed out by any other forum personality that practices bare-hand waxing? With an applicator pad you can't feel tiny particles, you have to turn your applicator pad over often and visually inspect for them and this by the way is a good habit to forum or "Best Practice" when applying any paint care product by hand or machine.
In a perfect world, the best way to apply a wax or a paint sealant to paint is without a doubt by machine, specifically a dual action polisher with a soft finishing pad or a polishing pad on the 3-4 speed setting after the paint has been previously cleaned and polished.
Spreading the pressure out
Bare Hand
When you're working with your bare hand, there's no interface to spread pressure out, just your hand against the paint.
DA Polisher
With a machine like a Dual Action Polisher, the pressure is spread out evenly over the entire face of the buffing pad assuming you're using good technique and holding the pad flat to the surface.
Wax Applicator Pad
Your hand, which is actually 4 fingers pushing down on an applicator pad creates pressure points and cannot match, let alone outperform the equal pressure applied to the entire face of a foam buffing pad with about a 6" diameter by machine.
So out of the 2 options, machine, wax applicator pad or bare hand, the machine option provides for the most even pressure when spreading out a wax, hand application offers some ability to spread out the pressure but when working by hand there's nothing to act as an interface between your hand and the paint.
A Romantic Idea
Melting wax with your hand is just a romantic idea, nothing wrong with that as it does invoke this perception of old world craftsmanship. That said, you can melt most paste waxes enough to liquefy them so the wax will flow into your applicator pad simply by spinning your applicator over the surface of the wax while it's in the can. M16 has been out since 1951 and all the old-timers knew this back in the day...
If applying wax with your bare hand sounds like a good idea simply get a clean, foam applicator pad and then do your own hands-on test and try applying and spreading out a thin, uniform coating using both methods, hand and applicator pad and then come to your own opinion and then post it here to share with others.
That's my take on it... you guys can chew on the above, take some time to digest what I wrote and then go out into your garage and do it for yourself and come up with your own opinion.
WantcarPerfect
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Wow! Mike nailed it! A big part of the reason I like to shop at AG is Mike Phillips. I respect all of his recommendation. He backs everything up with facts, pictures, experience and research. He is always there to help people and give advise. Thank you Mike.
hernandez.art13
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Thank Mike, nice read.
I try avoiding working by hand as much a possible. Not that I am against it. I personally haven't been able to keep up.
I bought MajinAl's three 3" MF cutting pads or 4" not sure? Either way it doesn't matter. and 3" backing plate for my PC
Will be getting these very soon alongside my Flex3401
I got the idea from Critical Details (thanks again)rops:
View attachment 21206
When I finally get my Color Lock, I'll try the bare hand technique. (Sure why not, just so I can say i've tried it before)
Happy Detailing everybody!
Art
I try avoiding working by hand as much a possible. Not that I am against it. I personally haven't been able to keep up.
I bought MajinAl's three 3" MF cutting pads or 4" not sure? Either way it doesn't matter. and 3" backing plate for my PC
Will be getting these very soon alongside my Flex3401
I got the idea from Critical Details (thanks again)
rops: View attachment 21206
When I finally get my Color Lock, I'll try the bare hand technique. (Sure why not, just so I can say i've tried it before)
Happy Detailing everybody!
Art