Possible alternative to an IPA wipedown?

Qusai said:
What's the difference between paint prep and prewax clean from griots
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mwoolfso said:
A paint prep is typically a WOWO product and has no distinct paint cleaning ability. A pre-wax cleaner, typically has good pain cleaning ability and is not usually WOWO.
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I actually think, Griots Paint Prep helps removes previous LSP for either starting a new polish or to strip and reapply an LSP on good paint. The Griots Pre Wax Cleaner, that cleans the surface of polishing oils prior to LSP application.:dblthumb2:

At least that how I use them and they work great!
 
I don't like the idea of using ipa after reading Mike's article. My concern is that at some point, I think I want to try 22PLE as it's gotten rave reviews. However, they say to use IPA and only IPA prior to applying. They say using a prep product from any other line (including Eraser) will compromise the results
 
mwoolfso said:
A paint prep is typically a WOWO product and has no distinct paint cleaning ability. A pre-wax cleaner, typically has good pain cleaning ability and is not usually WOWO.
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Griots Paint Prep: strips lsp, needs to be sprayed on and rinsed off.

Griots Pre-Wax cleanser: used to remove polishing oils, spray on and wipe off.

Next time please do a little research before you give advise about products. Thanks.
 
CM8 6MT said:
Griots Paint Prep: strips lsp, needs to be sprayed on and rinsed off.

Griots Pre-Wax cleanser: used to remove polishing oils, spray on and wipe off.

Next time please do a little research before you give advise about products. Thanks.
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:iagree:
 
I'm glad you did write it, as it shed some light on common misconceptions. I also liked the article on miscible vs immiscible oils. I feel like in a lot of cases, the detailing process is over-complicated and too many unnecessary steps are created where it really should stay more simple
 
Judge said:
I don't like the idea of using ipa after reading Mike's article. My concern is that at some point, I think I want to try 22PLE as it's gotten rave reviews. However, they say to use IPA and only IPA prior to applying. They say using a prep product from any other line (including Eraser) will compromise the results
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I've heard that as well so I thought I'd do my own testing...I often question information like that, especially if they have their own dedicated prep product for sale.

http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-de...22ple-coating-prep-ipa-eraser-soap-water.html
 
Thanks for conducting that test Rasky. I'll have to keep an eye on its progress. I wouldn't be trying out 22PLE for a few months anyway so I have time
 
When i strip my or a family member's vehicle I just pull out my odor-less mineral spirits and do the whole thing. It has not let me down yet so why change. water beaded before stripping but not after.
 
Judge said:
I'm glad you did write it, as it shed some light on common misconceptions.
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No problemo... I actually suggested somewhere on the forum and even asked for someone else to write it, specifically any of the people suggesting for others to use IPA full strength. But after a few months went by with no action I did the research and published the article. It's also in the back of my how-to book and posted to close to a dozen other forums.



Judge said:
I also liked the article on miscible vs imissible oils. I feel like in a lot of cases, the detailing process is over-complicated and too many unnecessary steps are created where it really should stay more simple
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It's important to follow a manufacturer's directions as they are responsible to know their products best. That said it's kind of the nature of online detailing enthusiasts to make washing and waxing your car rocket science.

At least this article has a funny picture to start it out...

Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding



One way to strip a car's finish is to carefully wash the car with a pure soap product or even a detergent soap like a dishwashing soap. They key is to work very carefully so you don't re-instill any marring in the washing and drying process.

Can't be any worse than wiping with some type of solvent as most solvents are not the best lubricants for scratch-sensitive paints. Of course if there is marring from ANY chemical stripping process you won't see it unless you,

A: Look or inspect for it.
B: Are working on a black or dark colored finish.

Luckily most quality LSP will act to mask any light marring so for the majority of people including me it's a non-issue. Mostly because for the most part, all you can do is all you can do.


:dblthumb2:
 
Nicholas@Autowerx said:
Check out CarPro Eraser. It is designed to strip the paint prior to applying their C.Quartz coating but can be used prior to any LSP. It removes polishing oils and is somewhat lubricated unlike IPA/Water.
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I use Menzerna Top Inspection which is another product used to prep the surface prior to applying the LSP. I like the Menzerna product because you don't need special gloves to apply and it's like using a detail spray - wipe on / wipe off. Griots product in this class is Griot's Garage Paint Prep.
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
One way to strip a car's finish is to carefully wash the car with a pure soap product or even a detergent soap like a dishwashing soap.
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This is something I read a lot and, with all respect, I think most people claiming it have missed something.

My experience is as a formulator and manufacturer, so I am the guy who tests products before they get to beta stage. I very frequently am forced to try to remove waxes and sealants from panels in order that I have real estate to try new ones and it is routinely rather tough to get rid of old products. That means one of two things - the products I am working with are much more resilient than those that most people use or I am doing something very different in my cleansing. I have used fairy liquid (our equivalent to dawn), not to mention caustic alkaline degreasers and would routinely use a wash mitt to work them/foam them up before rinsing. Frequently, an initial wash makes little difference to the water behaviour. It generally takes a strongly alkaline (well in excess of pH 13) to reliably strip in one step and I have never seen a pH neutral washing up detergent achieve it. What I see all the time is a quick wash with a highly active surfactant product which leaves the surface hydrophillic, as one would expect when the protection is removed. So it is gone? No!

A bit of chemical expertise helps here. Surfactants are bridging molecules. They basically have two ends - one loves 'oils', the other loves water. Now LSPs, break them down to the molecular level or below and what do they look like? What do you know - they are very similar to the oils loved by the surfactants. In fact this character is how surfactants work. So what you should now be thinking is... 'hold on, surfactants will want to stick to my LSP'... you would be right. Now think about what happens in solution once you have done some washing - the surfactants stick to the oils, they hold them in the water solution so that they do not simply float off and redeposit - again this is fundamental to surfactant functionality. Transfer this to the present discussion and we have surfactant molecules which will see your LSP and the oil loving end will make them stick. As I just said, they tend to stay stuck, the bond between surfactant and oil is not easily broken by water coming along. So you have an LSP with a layer of surfactant stuck to is with its hydrophillic end sticking up and away from the surface. Break it down and you have an LSP which has now become temporarily hydrophillic thanks to a bound surfactant layer - it will look exactly like the surface would were the LSP removed. In order for the LSP to be removed, you must infer that the hydrophillic end of the surfactant makes a stronger bond to water than your LSP has made to the surface. It is possible, but somewhat unlikely. Most of the time I find that an initial wash will give this appearance. Most of the time I find that a through clean (this can potentially take several goes with a wash mitt or power hose) will mysteriously (or otherwise if you read the above) recovery of the hydrophobic character as you actually wash the surfactant away. I appreciate this goes against detailing dogma but there you have it.

To those who are utterly insistent on the dangers of the likes of Dawn - I would ask for some chemical backup. We read that the ingredients are totally different to car wash soaps, so I would love to have someone list some surfactants which are considered totally unacceptable to car washing. I have never read of a single ingredient identified as a danger. More than that, I can tell you that many of the primary surfactants in manual dishwashing liquids are the same as those used in car wash shampoos. I tell you this as someone who has worked for several manufacturers and has seen the recipe sheets.

I would be really intrigued to hear an answer to this because I am willing to learn as much as anyone else!
 
Mr Megane said:
This is something I read a lot and, with all respect, I think most people claiming it have missed something.
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I was just pointing out an alternative, I never said it was the perfect alternative.


Sometimes it helps to write for a broad audience. Besides our members we have hundreds of lurkers to this forum every day. So for some, washing "carefully", especially after using body shop safe products which tend to be more water soluble than say car waxes, synthetic paint sealant and coatings, and any version of these in any form.

Most people considering stripping the paint will be doing so after the correction steps, that is after using some brand of compounds and polishes. And from what I've always been taught, if the products in question are "Body Shop Safe", that is they contain no ingredients that will negatively affect surface adhesion to say for example cause Fish Eyes in a new paint job, then these products are sometimes designed so they can be washed off. That is, after a body shop sands, compounds and polishes the paint, if they so choose, to get the residues out of all the cracks and crevices, wash the car with a detergent soap and/or body shop safe soap.

Dr. David Ghodoussi told me the surface of a car's finish could be wiped using a water dampened microfiber towel, (carefully), after using his compounds and polishes to prep the paint for Opti-Coat II.

So at least in this instance, it would seem that washing with "more" than just water would be adequate to get the surface clean before applying a coating.


If I could go back in time, I would study chemistry because now days it interest me.


:)
 
Also, it is "generally speaking" the ingredients in an LSP that give the product "lasting characteristics" and also water beading characteristics, to show people their paint is protected and the product is "lasting", (whether the product protects or not), it is these ingredients that are not or at least not typically included in product formulated to be used in fresh paint environments. In other words, body shop safe products.

If that makes sense? :dunno:



But here we are turning washing and waxing a car back into rocket science.


:laughing:
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
I was just pointing out an alternative, I never said it was the perfect alternative.
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I quite understand and I apologise if it seemed I was trying to make a point specifically to you - that was not my intention.

The discussion about washing up soaps has become so common that there is little merit in trying to target to a general audience, with so many experienced individuals taking a stance, the general reader is never going to be able to take enough from a simplified argument to stand against the dogma. To that end, my discussion was in somewhat more detail (though I should point out this remains a considerable simplification) in the hope that some of the more experienced readers might be able to provide some support for the ubiquitous statements.

So going beyond anything else I would really like it for someone to provide me even a couple of examples of the surfactant components in dish wash soaps which result in their claimed effectiveness at stripping LSPs.

As I say and you clearly agree, no one is beyond learning and this is a good place to try and do it!
 
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