Question / Poll on Wolfgang PPE

[swanicyouth]

I plan on using some CG LSPs ( Pete's 53 & Lava) on a car that doesn't need correction. However, I would like to clay and follow it up with a paint cleaner. I'm wondering how critical people think it is to use the "pre- wax" cleaner from the same manufacturer, which would be Vertua Bond 408.

I already have a new bottle of Wolfgang PPE. I'm thinking of just using that as a paint cleaner. I'm looking for opinions. I'm guessing my Lava won't be laying on the garage floor the next day if I use PPE for my "paint cleaner" - but I'm still looking for opinions.

The thing is, PPE is recommended prior to WG Deep Gloss Paint Sealant, and I'm guessing PPE leaves something behind. Which leads me to wonder (or doubt) on how important it is to have a bare surface to apply a sealant like Lava.

Any input?

 

[rmagnus]

If you need to polish Wolfgang PPE has light abrasives in it and should be a good selection for you after you clay, then wax away. I forgot to mention you can always adjust your pads but generaally a typical polishing pad like LC CCS white will work nicely..

 

[swanicyouth]

My question was more mixing one brand of paint cleaner that likely leaves something behind (PPE) with another brand of sealant (Lava). The description of PPE doesn't say it has any abrasives in it. I'm just wondering if / how much durability would be affected. But it's likely a question on the blender of the product could truly answer.

 

[1953hogan]

subscribed

 

[Bunky]

As you say it may just depend on the sealant. My guess if it is a traditional sealant (meaning a formula close to others) it should not be any issue. A good sealant should expect to be applied on a surface that has been treated by a paint cleaner. If worried, just strip the paint cleaner with IPA blend and apply the sealant. I have done a couple 50/50 test spots and never saw any noticeable difference in durability but I am sure there are many variables.

 

[RMM]

WGPPE does not have any abrasives in its formulation (it does have fillers along with the expected cleaners).

I'm sure WGPPE won't cause any bonding or durability issues to Lava or Pete's 53.

 

[bikeride4fun]

WGPPE does not have any abrasives in its formulation (it does have fillers along with the expected cleaners).

I'm sure WGPPE won't cause any bonding or durability issues to Lava or Pete's 53.

:iagree:

 

[FUNX650]

I plan on using some CG LSPs ( Pete's 53 & Lava) on a car that doesn't need correction. However, I would like to clay and follow it up with a paint cleaner. I'm wondering how critical people think it is to use the "pre- wax" cleaner from the same manufacturer, which would be Vertua Bond 408.

I already have a new bottle of Wolfgang PPE. I'm thinking of just using that as a paint cleaner. I'm looking for opinions. I'm guessing my Lava won't be laying on the garage floor the next day if I use PPE for my "paint cleaner" - but I'm still looking for opinions.

The thing is, PPE is recommended prior to WG Deep Gloss Paint Sealant, and I'm guessing PPE leaves something behind. Which leads me to wonder (or doubt) on how important it is to have a bare surface to apply a sealant like Lava.

Any input?

First:
I admit I have ditherings with the terminology/usage of: "pre-wax cleaner".

But...To stay on topic:
I.
-Even though both products are described as being "pre-wax paint-cleaners"...
I don't see it as being fair to compare CG's Vertua Bond 408 (said to contain: 'bonding-agents')
with Wolfgang's PPE (that has no stated 'bonding agents')...

-At the very least: this 'bonding-attribute', if indeed is true, would seem to
differentiate these products in my viewpoint.

II.
-From Pete's 53 and Lava's product descriptions, they both appear to be formulated from
waxy-based substances---with some polymers thrown in for durabilty, etc.

-I don't see either one as being formulated from man-made/synthetic-based substances...
Therefore:

III.
-I'd rather say that both: Pete's 53 and Lava...appear to me to be: hybrid-waxes....

-With both having little to no trepidation as to what particular base any:
"pre-wax paint-cleaner" has prepared for them to be applied upon.

Of course the above is just my opinions.




Bob

 

[swanicyouth]

Bob, that's interesting, I understand Pete's 53 is a "hybrid" - but have seen no information that Lava is anything but a sealant in pudding like form. I picked it up from a guy who gave me "a deal I couldn't refuse".

As for CG description of "bonding agents" - I'm leery of anything their website claims. I really like whoever is formulating their products, but I get the feeling a lot of the information on the website is erroneous. I was assuming Vertua Bond 408 to pretty much be a product the removed the old LSP, and left a glaze like substance behind that was compatible with their LSPs.

The is so much "smoke and mirrors" regarding the actual science and what exactly goes into a lot of the products and what they do. At best, a lot of times all you can so I guess if what your using is a wax, a sealant, or a combination of both.

I was taking opinions to see if it was worth it for me to spend the money to order Vertua Bond 408 (to use with Lava & Pete's 53), or just use the closest thing I have - Wolfgang PPE. Really, in the end, I know nobody knows the difference for sure - it's all a guessing game and anecdotal information.

That's the frustrating part.

On a different note, I wish I could understand how a product that contains polymers (a pure sealant or a hybrid wax - like Wolfgang Sealant) is recommended to be used after a "paint cleaner" that contains fillers (like PPE). Or, is the notion that sealants need "clean" paint to bond to all nonsense?

 

[rmagnus]

My question was more mixing one brand of paint cleaner that likely leaves something behind (PPE) with another brand of sealant (Lava). The description of PPE doesn't say it has any abrasives in it. I'm just wondering if / how much durability would be affected. But it's likely a question on the blender of the product could truly answer.

Sorry where my head at I meant mild cleaners not abrasives. Since you didn't need to do any correction work I believe it will work nicely for you after claying. As others have suggested if overly concerned do an IPA wipe. I don't think you will need to do the wipe because Pete's 53 and Lava are not pure sealants. I bet they are closer to Col845 in terms of their properties.

 

[FUNX650]

Bob, that's interesting, I understand Pete's 53 is a "hybrid" - 1.) but have seen no information that Lava is anything but a sealant in pudding like form. I picked it up from a guy who gave me "a deal I couldn't refuse".

2.) As for CG description of "bonding agents" - I'm leery of anything their website claims. I really like whoever is formulating their products, but I get the feeling a lot of the information on the website is erroneous. I was assuming Vertua Bond 408 to pretty much be a product the removed the old LSP, and left a glaze like substance behind that was compatible with their LSPs.

The is so much 3.) "smoke and mirrors" regarding the actual science and what exactly goes into a lot of the products and what they do. At best, a lot of times all you can so I guess if what your using is a wax, a sealant, or a combination of both.

4.) I was taking opinions to see if it was worth it for me to spend the money to order Vertua Bond 408 (to use with Lava & Pete's 53), or just use the closest thing I have - Wolfgang PPE. Really, in the end, I know nobody knows the difference for sure - it's all a guessing game and anecdotal information.

That's the frustrating part.

On a different note, I wish I could understand how a product that contains polymers (a pure sealant or a hybrid wax - like Wolfgang Sealant) is recommended to be used after a "paint cleaner" that contains fillers (like PPE). Or, 5.) is the notion that sealants need "clean" paint to bond to all nonsense?

1.) but have seen no information that Lava is anything but a sealant

Quote:
"It spreads like a wax and shines like a wax, but unlike a wax, LAVA Wax can
withstand temperatures up to 300 degrees Fahrenheit"!
Unquote. Source: CG's web-site

If this is true...
Then this heat-range/fracture-melting point...is waaaay above that of everyday, ordinary:
Waxes/Hybrid-Waxes...even some Sealants, as far as that goes!! AND:

I may just have to adjust my thinking a little bit on Lava Wax... :dunno:


2.) As for CG description of "bonding agents"...
-Duragloss and "The Z" also claim to have "bonding agents".

3.) I wonder if their claims also constitutes "smoke and mirrors"?!?!

4.) I was taking opinions to see if it was worth it
for me to spend the money to order Vertua Bond 408

-I would just go ahead and use the WPPE, if I was you...
(That is: If I believed that "pre-wax cleaners" were a necessary evil.)

5.) is the notion that sealants need "clean" paint to bond to all nonsense?

-IMHO...
Depends on how one answers the following question:

Are we to really/actually believe...and then follow:
The manufactures' sealant-products' descriptions/directions?

(Probably should throw in: Marketing-hype...for good measure.)

And...As a Finale:
Like you referenced earlier---that which has been stated many similar ways/times before:

I'm guessing my Lava won't be laying on the garage floor the next day if I use PPE for my "paint cleaner"

So...In closing...'Take Heart'!!




Bob

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I don't believe in pre-wax cleaners. They all leave something behind, whatever it might be. CarPro Eraser wipedown, then LSP application.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

On a different note, I wish I could understand how a product that contains polymers (a pure sealant or a hybrid wax - like Wolfgang Sealant) is recommended to be used after a "paint cleaner" that contains fillers (like PPE). Or, is the notion that sealants need "clean" paint to bond to all nonsense?

Yes, but you have sealant-compatible glazes like Wet Glaze and the various similar offerings from Poorboy's and CG. So it's not impossible to imagine a "paint cleaner" that has fillers that would be compatible with a sealant. I wasn't really cognizant of that Wolfgang product, but there is a Sonus paint cleaner that is supposed to be good for sealants, and of course the Ultima cleaner as well as the Four Star cleaner for before UPP (I would expect all three of those to be very similar). Even if they didn't have any fillers, I wouldn't expect them to leave any oily residue behind since they are all intended for pre-sealant use.

 

[Dr Oldz]

Without getting into all the crap above.............

WG PPE works fine with sealants or wax. I have used a few bottles of WG and never had any problems. Durability was always what it should have been from the chosen LSP. I have used it with Lava and it works fine.

 

[FUNX650]

I don't believe in pre-wax cleaners.

You're preaching to the Choir...My Friend!! rops:

I admit I have ditherings with the terminology/usage of: "pre-wax cleaner".

(That is: If I believed that "pre-wax cleaners" were a necessary evil.)

(Probably should throw in: Marketing-hype...for good measure.)

The(re) is so much "smoke and mirrors" regarding the actual science and what exactly goes into a lot of the products and what they do.

^^^:iagree:^^^

 

[swanicyouth]

Without getting into all the crap above.............

WG PPE works fine with sealants or wax. I have used a few bottles of WG and never had any problems. Durability was always what it should have been from the chosen LSP. I have used it with Lava and it works fine.

Thanks! It just seems a bit "crazy" to buy every LSP's manufacturers branded prep product if your want to change your wax/sealant to a different brand and don't need polishing.

This is what happens if you park too many cars with Lava too close together:

But, according to CGs, at least the paint is still protected

 

[Bunky]

This is what happens if you park too many cars with Lava too close together:

I thought you would say is this is what happens if you brand a paint cleaner and brand b lsp.

 

[mwoolfso]

I don't believe in pre-wax cleaners. They all leave something behind, whatever it might be. CarPro Eraser wipedown, then LSP application.

Pre-wax cleaners are all very mild polishes in nature; some have chemical cleaners in them, some have very mild abrasives, some have both! The durability of any LSP or intermediary protection layer will not be affected by using a pre-wax cleaner. On a side note, many AIO's also have the very same type of characteristics; on par or stronger than a pre-wax cleaner.

Overall, what pre-wax cleaners leave behind is less of a reason to even use the product in the first place.

Factoring into account a "least aggressive first" mindset, what pre-wax cleaners DO is paramount. The proof of their value is always in the pads I throw into the bucket that used to be yellow or white; and are now dark grey (not to mention many are cheaper than other approaches). :xyxthumbs:

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Overall, what pre-wax cleaners leave behind is less of a reason to even use the product in the first place.

I think the issue is that many of these cleaners, at least anecdotally, were meant for pre-wax use and had oily-type fillers in them. I'm thinking about the P21S product and ones of that ilk. So if they have oily-type fillers, that would make them incompatible with a sealant that isn't capable of some cleaning, at least that is the standard forum wisdom.

 

[cleanmycorolla]

I've used BLACKFIRE GEP, Wolfgang PPE, and Pinnacle Cleansing Lotion with various sealants and waxes and I've never experienced any issues. Maybe I'm not noticing since I'll top things or reapply some wax regularly, but I've never had an issue. Maybe it varies from person to person but for me paint cleaners havent caused any issues when used outside their "family".