Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding

[mwoywod]

For one every book I have read have mentioned it. And I have seen many cars with burned paint from previous details done in car washes. I don't need to kill myself to know that pointing a gun at my head and pulling the trigger can be fatal.

Here's another false equivalency for you.... Based on all the articles I've read, reckless driving kills people. So there's really no point in learning how to drive because everyone knows that driving a car can be fatal.

 

[RZJZA80]

Regardless of skill level, it only takes a split second to burn paint with a rotary and any type of pad. The same cannot be said about DA's. I'm talking about on the same car, everything else being equal, not that one in a million chance you hit very thin clear a little too hard. You can absolutely only use a rotary and nothing else, but with the polishers we have today, why? Regardless how good you are the fact of the matter is it's still more of a risk using a rotary than a DA, this cannot be disputed. With DA's as good as they are and compounds and polishes being as good as they are, DA's do everything a rotary does and almost as fast, sometimes faster depending on the paint.

The only time I may break out my Makita 9227c is after wetsanding a freshly painted car. I see no reason to bother with it on OEM paint whatsoever.

 

[jslym777]

Regardless of skill level, it only takes a split second to burn paint with a rotary and any type of pad. The same cannot be said about DA's. I'm talking about on the same car, everything else being equal, not that one in a million chance you hit very thin clear a little too hard. You can absolutely only use a rotary and nothing else, but with the polishers we have today, why? Regardless how good you are the fact of the matter is it's still more of a risk using a rotary than a DA, this cannot be disputed. With DA's as good as they are and compounds and polishes being as good as they are, DA's do everything a rotary does and almost as fast, sometimes faster depending on the paint.

The only time I may break out my Makita 9227c is after wetsanding a freshly painted car. I see no reason to bother with it on OEM paint whatsoever.

A split second? Where do you get this information? Which rotary, being used correctly, can produce enough heat that fast?

 

[RZJZA80]

A split second? Where do you get this information? Which rotary, being used correctly, can produce enough heat that fast?

I have burned paint once in the last 10 years with my Makita and foam pad and yes it was a split second, caught the edge of the back of an Escalade and burned through the paint and into the plastic. Being used correctly isn't the point, the point is it takes an instant for something to go wrong so it's a risk factor regardless of skill level.

 

[jslym777]

I have burned paint once in the last 10 years with my Makita and foam pad and yes it was a split second, caught the edge of the back of an Escalade and burned through the paint and into the plastic. Being used correctly isn't the point, the point is it takes an instant for something to go wrong so it's a risk factor regardless of skill level.

Are you sure it was burn through and not more of a scuff from catching the edge? Most rotaries operate under 1000 rpm for todays materials, so they do actually stay pretty cool. If you are cranking up the speed then you are being negligent in the first place.

I was going to make a video but I found these floating around

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iexTYmbbr04 - pad going right over the edge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyUF5X619M4 - extreme heating

 

[RZJZA80]

Are you sure it was burn through and not more of a scuff from catching the edge? Most rotaries operate under 1000 rpm for todays materials, so they do actually stay pretty cool. If you are cranking up the speed then you are being negligent in the first place.

I was going to make a video but I found these floating around

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iexTYmbbr04 - pad going right over the edge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyUF5X619M4 - extreme heating

The plastic material was melted so I'm pretty sure it was burned through, wouldn't you agree? No negligence on my part, however out of the entire SUV that one part above the tail light is plastic, go figure. If it was metal like the rest of the SUV there wouldn't have been a problem.

 

[mwoywod]

I have burned paint once in the last 10 years with my Makita and foam pad and yes it was a split second, caught the edge of the back of an Escalade and burned through the paint and into the plastic. Being used correctly isn't the point, the point is it takes an instant for something to go wrong so it's a risk factor regardless of skill level.

When using a rotary paired with a wool/lambswool pad and a machine speed set between 600-1400rpms and you are cognizant of reducing machine speed to 600-1200rpms on plastic front and rear bumpers...as long as the lubrication of your compound hasn't dried up it's virtually impossible to burn paint. I've been using the rotary on a daily basis for the past 4+ years without ever burning paint. Actually, the only polisher related mistake I've made was before I owned a paint depth gauge and struck through porsche clear coat using a PC7424xp and a 3" megs microfiber cutting pad.

My point is that there is a risk factor regardless of what machine you are using.

 

[jslym777]

The plastic material was melted so I'm pretty sure it was burned through, wouldn't you agree? No negligence on my part, however out of the entire SUV that one part above the tail light is plastic, go figure. If it was metal like the rest of the SUV there wouldn't have been a problem.

Tape off vulnerable edges? Doing this will also protect the pad from damage too.

 

[SWETM]

Just that with the precision you can get with the rotary is why I'm intrested to learn to handle a rotary polisher. Maybe with the lower operating speed with under 1000rpm and lower makes the rotary safer now days. And even lower speed in the beginning. Is it possible with right technique on rotary to handle it as a weekend warrior? I think why many new people that are starting out to polish cars go the safe route start with a da.

Have someone tested twisted wool/acrylic cutting pads and or low hair hight wool cutting pads on a da? And if you they cut faster than a mf cutting pad?

 

[dlc95]

When using a rotary paired with a wool/lambswool pad and a machine speed set between 600-1400rpms and you are cognizant of reducing machine speed to 600-1200rpms on plastic front and rear bumpers...as long as the lubrication of your compound hasn't dried up it's virtually impossible to burn paint. I've been using the rotary on a daily basis for the past 4+ years without ever burning paint. Actually, the only polisher related mistake I've made was before I owned a paint depth gauge and struck through porsche clear coat using a PC7424xp and a 3" megs microfiber cutting pad.

My point is that there is a risk factor regardless of what machine you are using.

I've had a similar experience. Never burned or struck through with a a rotary, but have my first time with the PC.

It was also posted earlier something about comfort level. Of the two I'm way more comfortable with wool on a rotary over a modded 21 MK2, 5" plate, exact fit xtra cut mf pad and a heavy cut compound. I've mentioned it before and I qualified the statement by saying "in MY hands". I mean, I was on speed 2 with that thing..

Much of the trepidation was from not having much of any cushion, and the rate at which that thing chopped paint. With the Makita I was probably at 1000, or 1200 rpm, and a wool pad. Lots of cushion, the plate was covered at the sides with wool...

 

[mwoywod]

Just that with the precision you can get with the rotary is why I'm intrested to learn to handle a rotary polisher. Maybe with the lower operating speed with under 1000rpm and lower makes the rotary safer now days. And even lower speed in the beginning. Is it possible with right technique on rotary to handle it as a weekend warrior? I think why many new people that are starting out to polish cars go the safe route start with a da.

Have someone tested twisted wool/acrylic cutting pads and or low hair hight wool cutting pads on a da? And if you they cut faster than a mf cutting pad?

Absolutely a weekend warrior could learn it! Especially since you have about 3x as much knowledge as most weekend warriors. I taught myself with the Dewalt 849x. Mike could give much better advice but I think if you start out using a heavily lubricated finishing polish like HD Polish+ or Jescar Finishing Polish on a lambswool or foamed wool pad and keep your machine speed between 600-1000rpms you would build your confidence and have the hang of it in no time!

Once you move onto using a cutting compound, I would start out using compounds that have more lubrication. Jescar Correcting Compound is fantastic on a rotary. Jescar isn't my favorite compound on DA but it's lubricating oils make it ideal for rotary use.

Stay away from compounds with short buffing cycles HD Cut+, 3D 501, M105, etc. They aren't necessarily bad compounds, but they dry up quickly and you'll feel the increased friction when using them. Especially when compared to compounds like Jescar, M100, Sonax CutMax, Scholl's S3 GoldXXL.

 

[RZJZA80]

Tape off vulnerable edges? Doing this will also protect the pad from damage too.

You missed the point completely.

 

[RZJZA80]

When using a rotary paired with a wool/lambswool pad and a machine speed set between 600-1400rpms and you are cognizant of reducing machine speed to 600-1200rpms on plastic front and rear bumpers...as long as the lubrication of your compound hasn't dried up it's virtually impossible to burn paint. I've been using the rotary on a daily basis for the past 4+ years without ever burning paint. Actually, the only polisher related mistake I've made was before I owned a paint depth gauge and struck through porsche clear coat using a PC7424xp and a 3" megs microfiber cutting pad.

My point is that there is a risk factor regardless of what machine you are using.

Great. However my point was that the rotary has a greater risk factor than any DA on equal paints.

 

[Kamakaz1961]

IMO I so no reason why NOT to use a rotary for compounding and following up with a polishing compound with a DA. I have never used a rotary as IMO I have a Hybrid with the Flex 3401 Forced rotational DA. But I also think it's the talent of the Detailer that can use and machine whether it be a rotary or a DA.

So if jslm777 uses a rotary for compounding and a DA for polishing...I say GO FOR IT!

 

[jslym777]

You missed the point completely.

Not missing the point, I'm saying could have avoided it by preventative measures. Taping vulnerable edges is still necessary for the same reason whether or not you're using a DA or Rotary. We are also way off topic but I figured I'd entertain the heat issue or non-issue for a little.

 

[Calendyr]

Not missing the point, I'm saying could have avoided it by preventative measures. Taping vulnerable edges is still necessary for the same reason whether or not you're using a DA or Rotary. We are also way off topic but I figured I'd entertain the heat issue or non-issue for a little.

Ok but if you have to tape every edge on the car that adds a lot of time to the buffing job. I very rarelly tape when I do a compound, and when I do is for a part that I know I will have no choice but to go over because of the shape of the pannel. Granted since I don't do it often, I am not good at taping and it does take me a lot more time than someone who tapes every job, but still... Also tape is very expensive, so that adds more expenses to the detail, which is not a good thing.

You guys seems really eager to prove that the rotary is superior. I would say it has advantages and disadvantages that probably puts it on par with a good DA. So if I was a new detailer, I could go either way and find success with either method. But after using a DA for 5 years, I feel like I have mastered it's use and don't really see a point to switch to something different that in the end will produce a similar result. But that's just me.

Also, you keep saying heat is not an issue you want to talk about, and burning through is not a problem... yet, that is pretty much the only reason people are not using rotaries.... or at least the main reason. So if you want to keep that out of the discussion, there is no discussion.

 

[jslym777]

Ok but if you have to tape every edge on the car that adds a lot of time to the buffing job. I very rarelly tape when I do a compound, and when I do is for a part that I know I will have no choice but to go over because of the shape of the pannel. Granted since I don't do it often, I am not good at taping and it does take me a lot more time than someone who tapes every job, but still... Also tape is very expensive, so that adds more expenses to the detail, which is not a good thing.

You guys seems really eager to prove that the rotary is superior. I would say it has advantages and disadvantages that probably puts it on par with a good DA. So if I was a new detailer, I could go either way and find success with either method. But after using a DA for 5 years, I feel like I have mastered it's use and don't really see a point to switch to something different that in the end will produce a similar result. But that's just me.

Also, you keep saying heat is not an issue you want to talk about, and burning through is not a problem... yet, that is pretty much the only reason people are not using rotaries.... or at least the main reason. So if you want to keep that out of the discussion, there is no discussion.

Heat used to be more of an issue as compounds had shorter working times, rotaries were used at higher speeds, and people were relearning how to use rotaries on newer paints. Just as DAs have come a long way, so have rotaries. I don't have the mindset that you should only do detailing one way. My troubles and questions stem from the marketing aspects of the new DAs. The claims they make that you can get perfection, don't need skilled detailers anymore and can do perfect paint correction in shorter times with no risk. I just don't agree with all of that and to me sounds gimmicky, lowers the perceived standard of a professional and lowers the prices detailers can charge for paint correction.

 

[mwoywod]

Ok but if you have to tape every edge on the car that adds a lot of time to the buffing job. I very rarelly tape when I do a compound, and when I do is for a part that I know I will have no choice but to go over because of the shape of the pannel. Granted since I don't do it often, I am not good at taping and it does take me a lot more time than someone who tapes every job, but still... Also tape is very expensive, so that adds more expenses to the detail, which is not a good thing.

You guys seems really eager to prove that the rotary is superior. I would say it has advantages and disadvantages that probably puts it on par with a good DA. So if I was a new detailer, I could go either way and find success with either method. But after using a DA for 5 years, I feel like I have mastered it's use and don't really see a point to switch to something different that in the end will produce a similar result. But that's just me.

Also, you keep saying heat is not an issue you want to talk about, and burning through is not a problem... yet, that is pretty much the only reason people are not using rotaries.... or at least the main reason. So if you want to keep that out of the discussion, there is no discussion.

I'm not sure if you are also referring to me when you say "you guys seem really eager to prove rotary is superior". But, I've made it clear that I personally am more comfortable with rotary and lambswool than I am with long-throw and x-tra cut microfiber. I also made sure to clarify in several different posts that it all comes downs to the operators personal preference and comfort level and that neither tool is truly superior across the board.

As someone who utilizes both tools, I was eager to share my experiences and findings.

You on the other hand, as someone with little to no experience with a rotary polisher still felt confident enough to use the following simile "I don't need to kill myself to know that pointing a gun at my head and pulling a trigger can be fatal" when referring to why you wouldn't use a rotary polisher.

 

[Calendyr]

I'm not sure if you are also referring to me when you say "you guys seem really eager to prove rotary is superior". But, I've made it clear that I personally am more comfortable with rotary and lambswool than I am with long-throw and x-tra cut microfiber. I also made sure to clarify in several different posts that it all comes downs to the operators personal preference and comfort level and that neither tool is truly superior across the board.

As someone who utilizes both tools, I was eager to share my experiences and findings.

You on the other hand, as someone with little to no experience with a rotary polisher still felt confident enough to use the following simile "I don't need to kill myself to know that pointing a gun at my head and pulling a trigger can be fatal" when referring to why you wouldn't use a rotary polisher.

Well I would not say no experience, I have used it a few times. One thing I can tell you is that it's pretty stressful to use. If you come close an edge with the pad rotating the wrong way you can damage the car, if you stay in one spot for a short time you can damage the car, if you go too close to the edge you can damage the car... and so on. I have none of these issues with a DA. So yes, I feel there are very real risks that I am not comfortable being exposed to by using a Rotary and will only use it if nothing else works. I am happy for you that you have experience with the tool and feel there is no danger. But I am sure that wasn't the case when you first started using it.

There are videos on Youtube from a guy called Cereal Marshmellow (or something like that). He owns a used car dealership and puts up detailing videos all the time (at least used to). And in one of his videos, his untrained assistant burned the paint on a car using a rotary. So if you think it can't happen, I would say it can, and it does. Now, I am sure if I had 5 years experience with a rotary I would not have any fear of it... the problem is I am not willing to pay for paint on customer cars (or my own) to learn.

 

[Ronin47]

To clarify, just because a rotary CAN burn paint doesn’t mean it WILL. They not so unforgiving or lethal as people make them out to be - forums tend to add to the drama. A rotary is still smoother and quieter to use than any DA. The DA’s are safer and leave a nicer finish. I have finished many paints with a rotary so yes they can finish well too. Modern DA’s are preferred as theres no real reason anymore to reach for a rotary, but I feel they still have a place.