Rotary vs Dual Action

AndrewBall

AndrewBall

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Ok, Now I know the mechanical differences between the two. Ive been using an old Vector Rotary for a while now. it has never failed me, and does a great job. but its a bulky, heavy machine. Im using 8.5" pads on it. it works great for just about everything (except those hard to reach places)

Everyone always talks about the benefit of the DA being its easier for the less experienced user. I am wondering is it worth picking up a PC DA or other model to add to my collection. Would it be better suited for applying those final stages of cleaners and waxes then firing up my rotary?

my main question is. can a DA make my life easier? my rotary is a monster and i dont mind using it. its of those "if its not broken dont fix it" situations. I am just wondering if it will allow me to work faster and more efficiently then using a rotary for finishing. Obviously for scratch and oxidation removal ill use my rotary because of the power. Also for any wet sanding correction. Is there any downsides to using a rotary from start to finish? Can it leave swirls that I am not seeing until weeks after the waxes break down and wear off? Does the increased heat

im basically looking for all the pros and cons of the two. aside from the fact that its easier to use for less experienced users. Ive never done anything to a car with my rotary. I dont plan to start. Although i know anything can happen.

I just cant decide do I buy the PC DA intro pad kit or do i just get some more pads for my rotary and some other little things i need and just move on. Im having a hard time springing for the DA since Ive had nothing but great results from my rotary

Thanks guys.
 
You won't see holograms weeks later with a DA. More detailers are hanging up their rotaries and going with a DA with the new polishes (105/205, Optimum Hyper Spray).
 
I just made the move to pick up a DA, and i've used it 1 time so far. So far I feel like the rotary is a great tool for getting the hard stuff out of the way quickly. You can get rid of the deeper stuff with the rotary and if using the right pads/products the finish will look great when you are done, but most the time you look over the car there are a few holograms and swirls left over. By incorporating a DA, you can finish out what you have done with the rotary to perfection without the worry of holograms and swirls. Wax application is also very simple with a DA, you put it on the pad, flip a switch and just let the DA glide across the paint. Very simple.

Cons of each are pretty easy; the rotary is difficult to finish perfect with and tends to leave holograms somewhere. The DA is not as powerful and will not be able to get rid of the deepest stuff or wetsanding marks as easily.

By combining both in your detailing, you will see better results and be able to work faster. Start with the rotary, end with the DA.
 
thanks, guys thats what i was sort of thinking but for the value i couldnt decide whether or not i should make the move or pick up some other things.
 
Actually, if you detail cars all the time or even occasionally you should have one of each, rotary buffers are the best tool for the job for some procedures while DA Polishers are best for other jobs...

If you don't have a DA Polisher then definitely add one to your arsenal...


I posted the below to another thread yesterday but it pretty much fits here too...

We used 2 PC's last night to turn a diamond in the ruff into a glistening gemstone...

1959CadillacExtremeMakeover014.jpg



No swirls, no burn-throughs, just pure clear shine...


Here's an article I wrote where I created a "Ease of Use Scale" and rated all the popular machine. There's two videos below it where you can see all of the different types turned on and operated...

Here's an in-depth article on the topic...

How to choose the right polisher for your detailing project



An overview with demonstrations of the Porter Cable 7424XP, Meguiar's G110v2, Griot's Garage 6" Random Orbital Polisher, Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher, Flex 3401, Flex 603, Flex 3403, Cyclo Polisher, Makita 9227C, DeWalt 849,

Part 1 - How To Pick the Right Car Polisher for your Detail Project​
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtrdTvnZX3I]YouTube - Part 1 - How To Pick the Right Car Polisher for your Detail Project[/video]


Part 2 - How To Pick the Right Car Polisher for your Detail Project​
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k92m5cJxCk]YouTube - Part 2 - How To Pick the Right Car Polisher for your Detail Project[/video]


The Flex 3401 in action...​
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CtUaI_8HhE]YouTube - Performing a "Test Spot" to the paint on a 1957 Chevrolet Belair[/video]
 
How much time will really be saved? I know using the rotary is obviously faster. When you follow it up with a DA how long will you have to polish to remove the light swirls etc. left by the rotary? It's not correction but what would be involved in the final step with the DA and what type of product would you be using?
 
clearview said:
How much time will really be saved? I know using the rotary is obviously faster. When you follow it up with a DA how long will you have to polish to remove the light swirls etc. left by the rotary? It's not correction but what would be involved in the final step with the DA and what type of product would you be using?
Click to expand...


You would normally only need to use a medium to light cut polish with a polishing pad.

What you need depends upon how deep the swirls are and how hard the paint is... removing swirls is simply a leveling process.


:)
 
clearview said:
How much time will really be saved? I know using the rotary is obviously faster. When you follow it up with a DA how long will you have to polish to remove the light swirls etc. left by the rotary? It's not correction but what would be involved in the final step with the DA and what type of product would you be using?
Click to expand...

Ive had great success on most paint using the DA with M205 with about 3 passes to get rid of holograms if my rotary leaves some behind. Its a relatively quick process. The menzerna finishing polishes work really well too but you might have to work them longer, thus slowing down the process. But they tend to leave a better looking finish IMHO.

I find that I can buff a car using this process in about 2 hours on average. More if its a large vehicle and/or the paint is hard or in bad shape. The trick is to make sure you do all of your correction with the rotary minus the holograms. The DA polishers make quick work of holograms.
 
jahman said:
Ive had great success on most paint using the DA with M205 with about 3 passes to get rid of holograms if my rotary leaves some behind. Its a relatively quick process. The menzerna finishing polishes work really well too but you might have to work them longer, thus slowing down the process. But they tend to leave a better looking finish IMHO.

I find that I can buff a car using this process in about 2 hours on average. More if its a large vehicle and/or the paint is hard or in bad shape. The trick is to make sure you do all of your correction with the rotary minus the holograms. The DA polishers make quick work of holograms.
Click to expand...

I have SwirlX and Ultimate Compound and Megs #83. Lets say I do some error correction with the rotary, using UC, which of these do you think I should follow up with on the DA to remove any holograms etc...?
 
clearview said:
I have SwirlX and Ultimate Compound and Megs #83. Lets say I do some error correction with the rotary, using UC, which of these do you think I should follow up with on the DA to remove any holograms etc...?
Click to expand...

well you want to use something thats not as abrasive or has less "cut" then the compound and a less aggressive pad. so you would want to step down to a light cutting or polishing pad. and so on. the DA used with the right product will remove the swirls and such left behind by the Rotary. Ive done many cars swirl free with my rotary but it was a long tedious process. 3-5 steps and the last few steps were using light pads and low speed and then finishing by hand
 
Hey Mike, I know watching an old Open Garage video you or Mike Pennington (forget which) mentioned that sanding scratches should always be corrected with a rotary with wool. That was back in the days before M105. Does the rule still hold true or does M105 on a cutting pad do just fine on a DA?
 
It works, Mike had a video of it just. Based on my understanding though, you would have to sand at grits exceeding 2500 most of the time if you are to use a cutting pad to remove sandmarks. Keep in mind, i have never tried to remove sanding scratches using a DA. :)
 
I have used a medium cut Edge pad on a rotary to get rid of 2000 grit sanding marks and it was tough work. I'd never attempt it with a DA. Personally I only ever use a rotary. I did have a DAS-6 but when I purchased the rotary I didn't touch it again. If I was the OP I'd be purchasing a better rotary, not a DA.
 
clearview said:
I have SwirlX and Ultimate Compound and Megs #83. Lets say I do some error correction with the rotary, using UC, which of these do you think I should follow up with on the DA to remove any holograms etc...?
Click to expand...

With a DA I would go with the SwirlX... it's a SMAT product, so is UC and M83 is a DAT product and most of the time the SMAT products will finish out nicer than M83

jahman said:
Ive had great success on most paint using the DA with M205 with about 3 passes to get rid of holograms if my rotary leaves some behind. Its a relatively quick process.
Click to expand...

And consistent on most paint systems.


jahman said:
The Menzerna finishing polishes work really well too but you might have to work them longer, thus slowing down the process. But they tend to leave a better looking finish IMHO.
Click to expand...

I would also agree... M205 finishes out really nice on most paint systems, I haven't come across a paint system that the fine Menzerna polishes don't just flat out finish perfect on.

jahman said:
The trick is to make sure you do all of your correction with the rotary minus the holograms. The DA polishers make quick work of holograms.
Click to expand...

I agree. The rotary and the DA are a surefire combination that will tackle any car you come across... Changing the "action" of the tool for your final polishing work ensures a swirl free finish down the road...


Bert31 said:
Hey Mike, I know watching an old Open Garage video you or Mike Pennington (forget which) mentioned that sanding scratches should always be corrected with a rotary with wool. That was back in the days before M105. Does the rule still hold true or does M105 on a cutting pad do just fine on a DA?
Click to expand...


The fastest, most efficient way to remove sanding marks is with a wool pad on a rotary buffer with an aggressive compound.

You can remove sanding marks using a DA but it's never going to be as fast or as efficient because these types of tools use a

The Free Floating Spindle Assembly - The Story Behind The Story...


So can it be done? Yes.

Would I ever attempt to sand down and entire car and then try to remove 100% of all the sanding marks? No.

It's already a ton of work with a rotary and it won't be any less work using a DA...


But it can be done, I have an article on this and note I used some very non-aggressive products....


Removing Orange Peel & Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins

Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher - Extreme Demo - Warning!


:)
 
I saw on another site a guy post with pics removing 1500 grit sanding scratches with a DA, M105, and surbuf pads.
 
Rsurfer said:
You won't see holograms weeks later with a DA. More detailers are hanging up their rotaries and going with a DA with the new polishes (105/205, Optimum Hyper Spray).
Click to expand...
Ron, why would you see holograms weeks later? Do you mean when the LSP's start wearing off, they will begin to show?
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
I saw on another site a guy post with pics removing 1500 grit sanding scratches with a DA, M105, and SurBuf pads.
Click to expand...

If you know how to use a DA correctly you can easily remove sanding marks.

How easy or difficult it is depends a lot upon

  • Topcoat Hardness
  • Depth of Scratches

The "Work smarter, not harder" approach would be to finish out using the highest grit and highest quality "finishing" paper or disc you can obtain.

Removing sanding marks using a DA sander is just using good technique and time...


In the link above I used Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover, which is NOT a very aggressive polish and removed #2000 grit sanding marks using a foam pad, it would have bee easier and faster using a Surbuf pad with M105.


:)
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
Ron, why would you see holograms weeks later? Do you mean when the LSP's start wearing off, they will begin to show?
Click to expand...

Polishes and such are designed to fill in scratches and stuff. buffing pads level out the clear coat surface and can remove some scratches. but holograms are very fine and require a very small light source to scatter the light and become apparent. short of high powered photographic lighting the sun is the only other source of this. So one possibility is when working you wont see them. Sure the brinkman is a great tool but its still just an LED it does a great job but its no sun.

Second, the waxes and polishes will lay in these holograms and such and covering them up. thats their job they are supposed to lay on the clear coat and cover up imperfections. just like make up. Well after a few weeks out in the elements. rain ect... these waxes break down and can reveal holograms or swirls that you didnt know were there.

also you can see the cobb-web effect come back in some paints depending on how much you went at it. I know i did a GMC truck a few months ago and some cobb-webbing is coming back. now they didnt pay for me to remove them but after buffing they were almost gone. but now the waxes are wearing down and they are showing through again.

I believe what mike has said that the DA, is less likely to leave behind swirl marks if it does at all. and so when the waxes and such break down over time you wont see the swirls or holograms you see if you finished the job out with a rotary.

At least thats what I have come to understand from my own experiences and what little I actually know about the machines and chemicals used.

Mike knows more about this stuff then i could ever hope to know. I am sure he can shed some light on it.
 
hey guys, my question is a little off topic but this will be my first time trying out my GG 6in orbital. i have watched a lot of Mike's training videos and have a very good idea of what needs to be done. my only question is when working the car in sections do you do all the steps one the one section first? like i plan on using m105/205 combo and collinite 845 wax to finish it off. should i do all three steps on that one section then move on to the next or do m105 on each section of the car then on to the next step?

thanks
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
I saw on another site a guy post with pics removing 1500 grit sanding scratches with a DA, M105, and surbuf pads.
Click to expand...

i just did my hood last week. it was refinished because it had some chips, and i was already having some custom work done elsewhere on the car, but they didn't seem to wetsand and buff to the extent that they did on the rest of the areas they painted; there was zero trash or nibs, but it looked like crinkled tin foil when studying up close...

so, 2k or 2.5k grit, depending, PC w/ yellow pad and optimum compound, orange pad with optimum polish and gray pad with optimum polish. it came out wonderfully (perfect, no rids, nothing) and took a reasonable amount of time.
 
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