Single Stage Paint Help

[cookdw]

First off I want to say thank you for all the how-to articles and threads you have written to help people like myself bring back the shine and remove scratches from paint. I do have a question though. I have my fathers 68 Camaro he purchased new and it still has the original paint. I am in the process of doing a preservation of the car. I have followed your single stage paint thread.

Just to give a little back story on the car you can go here where I started the preservation thread here.

Preservation Project Green Machine Link


Here is what I have done to this point. 2 hand applied coats of #7, DA polisher starting out with #7 then going to #205, then to Ultimate Compound and finally #105 and then back to #205. I still can not get the look of this out of the hood. The rest of the car is fine just the hood is the issue. See pic below. Is there something wrong with the paint or am I not doing something correctly? Looking straight down at the paint you do not see the issue but at an angle with the light you can see it pretty well.










The front stripe does have some checking in it but the green does not.





This might be kinda hard to see in the pic but on the trunk I did the same as above but when I got to #105 and then #205 after you can see a great difference in the area I worked versus the rest. And again I started with 2 coats of hand applied #7, then #205, then ultimate compound and finally #105 then back to #205.




Also there are still some scratches that I can not get out of the paint. Will I need to go to a variable speed polisher with a wool pad to remove these? I have a wool pad coming for the DA first that I might try if you think that will help. Let me know your thoughts. Take care, Darrell

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just to give a little back story on the car you can go here where I started the preservation thread here.

Preservation Project Green Machine Link

Just to point out how important words are...

When I saw the above thread pop up on "Recent Threads), I thought it was a thread about the Bissell Little Green Machine and thus did not click on it.

Not that a thread about a Bissell machine isn't interesting but limited time and all...

 

[cookdw]

Just to point out how important words are...

When I saw the above thread pop up on "Recent Threads), I thought it was a thread about the Bissell Little Green Machine and thus did not click on it.

Not that a thread about a Bissell machine isn't interesting but limited time and all...

Lol I see your point. The reason for the thread name goes back to the cars early years and what it was called by my father.

I would have added more to the thread but I felt it would not be considered important to the masses in this forum.

One can go here for more detail about the preservation process and photo history.

Preservation Project - Green Machine | Preservation forum | The Supercar Registry Bulletin Board

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

First off I want to say thank you for all the how-to articles and threads you have written to help people like myself bring back the shine and remove scratches from paint.

I do have a question though. I have my fathers 68 Camaro he purchased new and it still has the original paint. I am in the process of doing a preservation of the car. I have followed your single stage paint thread.

The Secret to Removing Oxidation and Restoring a Show Car Finish to Antique Single Stage Paints



Just to give a little back story on the car you can go here where I started the preservation thread here.


Preservation Project - Green Machine

Here is what I have done to this point.

• 2 hand applied coats of #7, DA polisher starting out with #7
• then going to #205,
• then to Ultimate Compound
• and finally #105 and
• then back to #205.

I still can not get the look of this out of the hood. The rest of the car is fine just the hood is the issue.

Hi Darrell,

First, it was good talking with you on the phone today about you're father's car.

Second, thanks for sharing this project on the forum with others, as I always say on this forum,

The opportunity to work on original single stage paint is pretty rare now days

Clearcoats are NOTHING like real paint. Real paint being single stage paint. Modern clearcoats are basically plastic and there's not much fun involved with working on plastic. But when it comes to working on classic cars with the real deal... well that's my favorite type of paint to work on and most guys I know that after working on single stage paint for their first time they agree.

As we talked about on the phone, old single stage paints react differently than basecoat/clearcoat paints sometimes. I'm not sure why the just do.

It's possible you won't be able to improve the finish quality over what you've already achieved.

I know sometimes old single stage paints really like a wool pad on a rotary buffer and high buffing speeds and high RPM's to bring back the shine to the surface.

The PROBLEM with using a wool pad with a compound on a rotary buffer on single stage metallic paints is you risk putting in Tiger Stripes.

Below is the only pictures that kind of show what tiger stripes would look like on old, single stage metallic paints.

Tiger Stripes from the buffing process
For this meaning of the term tiger stripes, if you buff too much on single stage metallic paint you will remove enough pigmented or colored paint plus abraded the aluminum flakes enough to leave stripes or lines in the paint that mimic the way you moved the buffer over the paint.

I don't have any good pictures of Tiger Stripes from over-buffing single stage metallic paint. I've seen it in my life but must not have had a camera handy.

You can get an idea of what this over buffing of single stage paint can look like in this write-up. I'm not saying my friend Craig over buffed this paint, it could have happened from before he owned the car. But you can definitely see a pattern of light and dark lines in the paint after he removed the extreme oxidation and restored clarity and gloss to the finish.

1971 Dodge Coronet Original Paint Extreme Makeover with Meguiar's #7 Show Car Glaze


Before

After

IF you look you can see dark sections and light sections this is where less paint and more paint has been removed at some point in the car's life from buffing.

This doesn't mean Craig the owner did it when he saved the paint job, he may have, he may have also revealed the appearance differences when he removed the oxidation.

What can you do?
The best thing you can do when buffing on single stage metallic paint is to take a very non-aggressive approach when choosing compounds and polishes and use a light touch. Then always use a crosshatch pattern when buffing, don't simply go from side to side.

And if it's not your car then less is more...

First educate your customer on the type of paint their car has and the unique issues buffing on and restoring this type of paint brings to the table. Then under promise what you can do and then do your best to over deliver. And of course this forum is always here to help.

So as we discussed on the phone, here's what I would try if I were standing in front of your Camaro.


1. Get a 5" backing plate for your DA Polisher.

Lake Country 5" DA Backing Plate

2. Get some Meguiar's 5.5" maroon foam cutting discs.

Meguiars 5 Inch DA Foam Discs

3. Get a few of the Meguiar's 5.5" Microfiber DA discs, if it's in your budget get the cutting and the finishing discs. Avoid the Xtra Cut disc as it's too thin/aggressive for this type of paint.

Meguiars DA Microfiber Cutting Discs, compounding discs, cutting pads


Meguiars DA Microfiber Finishing Discs, finishing pads, wax pads


The do some testing with the foam cutting and the microfiber pads on your DA Polisher.

IMPORTANT: Prime the face of your pads before using. The reason why is because you're working on thin, antique single stage paint so you want the face of your buffing pads lubricated with the product you're going to use.

Then test this technique which is a variation of how I would use a rotary buffer to do the same type of process.

• Fast arm speed.
• Light pressure, just a little more pressure than skimming the surface.
• Fast rotation.
• Avoid any raised body lines or edges.

Old single stage paints seem to like higher speeds and fiber pads for making the top surface shiny.

The problem with using a rotary to do the above is you risk instilling the tiger stripe effect but if you have a rotary that's you call. The DA might work and be a lot safer approach but it's really one of those things where you won't know till you try.

If you can't improve the surface shine then I'd recommend sticking with the #7 to preserve the paint and then use a traditional carnauba wax.

Pinnacle Souverän Liquid would be my choice. Easy to apply, easy to wipe off, creates a deep, wet shine.


Thank you so much for sharing this classic car with our forum members and I would like to personally say thank you for trusting the info I share in my article on how to restore antique paint. I appreciate that.


Meguiar's thin foam discs

Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation

 

[cookdw]

Thanks again Mr. Phillips.. I placed my order today. I will report the results once they arrive.:dblthumb2:

 

[57BORNTORUN]

396-375 HP is one of the best big blocks Chevy ever made back in the day.Shares many of the same components as it`s older brother the 427. I too have one but in a 69 Camaro.

 

[mudman]

That's a beautiful car, hope you can resolve the issue.

 

[cookdw]

It looks like I have been defeated by the SSP... I got the Meguiar's maroon disc, 5" backing plate and Meguiar's mf pads in today and gave it a go this afternoon.. After every possible scenario from light pressure and increasing pressures, different speeds etc and nothing seems to have helped.. Im not sure there is anything else I can try.. Looking at the paint it has shine and refection but you can see what looks like it is frosted (not sure what else to compare it to).. Any additional ideas would be greatly appreciated or if this is it then I will just have to learn to be satisfied.. The thing that gets me is I can still see scratches that are lower than the surface but yet can not feel them with the finger nail.. I also did the baggie test again and could feel bumps on the paint so I clayed an area again but did not help much if any at all..

 

[RedXray]

Fantastic car especially with the 396/375 engine m22 combo! You've got quite a lot out of the paint, not sure you can get to much more... just don't rub through. Checking out the photos on the Yenko site, great documentation by the way. Just curious what did y'all tow with the bumper hitch back in the day?

 

[cookdw]

Thanks. :xyxthumbs: You gotta realize back then these cars were somewhat daily drivers and it used to tow a small trailer when he would go to junk & salvage yards looking for parts. Heck I still have the old wooden trailer and the hitch.. It was a bumper hitch but it also had a support bar that went over the gas tank and then up to the trunk and bolted in through into it..

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

It looks like I have been defeated by the SSP...

I feel your pain - Bill Clinton

I feel your paint - Mike Phillips




Sorry to hear the combinations you tried didn't work and it sounds like you tried every which way possible with the pads and polisher you have.

The only other two ideas I can think of worth trying are,

Use a rotary buffer with a fine wool polishing pad and a light polish, fast arm speed, (that means move the polisher over the surface fast), fast RPM, like 1500 to 2000 RPM and a light touch.

The above is all super risky for Tiger Stripes too.

The other idea I had for trying to restore a clear shine would be to use the RUPES BigFoot 21 with their coarse blue foam cutting pad and their Zephir Gloss Coarse Compound.

The above combo can do miracles in some situations when nothing else will work.

Maybe we have a forum member that's in your area with the above RUPES products willing to lend a helping hand?

If you were in Stuart I'd love the challenge to help you with this project.

 

[RedXray]

Thanks. :xyxthumbs: You gotta realize back then these cars were somewhat daily drivers and it used to tow a small trailer when he would go to junk & salvage yards looking for parts. Heck I still have the old wooden trailer and the hitch.. It was a bumper hitch but it also had a support bar that went over the gas tank and then up to the trunk and bolted in through into it..

Got ya... I had a similar type of hitch on my 57 chev I used about the same way. Mostly to tow a small fishing boat. Guessing I'm about 10 or so years older than you and about 10 or so younger than your dad... (1957)

 

[cookdw]

I feel your pain - Bill Clinton

I feel your paint - Mike Phillips




Sorry to hear the combinations you tried didn't work and it sounds like you tried every which way possible with the pads and polisher you have.

The only other two ideas I can think of worth trying are,

Use a rotary buffer with a fine wool polishing pad and a light polish, fast arm speed, (that means move the polisher over the surface fast), fast RPM, like 1500 to 2000 RPM and a light touch.

The above is all super risky for Tiger Stripes too.

The other idea I had for trying to restore a clear shine would be to use the RUPES BigFoot 21 with their coarse blue foam cutting pad and their Zephir Gloss Coarse Compound.

The above combo can do miracles in some situations when nothing else will work.

Maybe we have a forum member that's in your area with the above RUPES products willing to lend a helping hand?

If you were in Stuart I'd love the challenge to help you with this project.

Thanks for all your help Mike. Hopefully there is someone in the area that would lend me a helping hand. If not maybe I will eventually breakdown and get the Rupes.. Would the Flex not be a good alternative?? Im not giving up hope just yet... I will try other alternatives as long as I feel it wont damage the paint.. :dblthumb2:

Got ya... I had a similar type of hitch on my 57 chev I used about the same way. Mostly to tow a small fishing boat. Guessing I'm about 10 or so years older than you and about 10 or so younger than your dad... (1957)

Im probably younger than you think.. I am 37. My father was 61 in 2006 when he passed.. Oddly enough most if not all of my friends are 10-20 years older than I am.. :xyxthumbs: I guess you could say I am an old soul..

 

[cookdw]

Mike what can you tell me (if anything) from these pics? Is it salvageable or as good as it can get? These are through a 10x magnifying glass..

 

[GSKR]

Looks like crazing or to much texture on the paint,really hard to say with the pics.

 

[GSKR]

No buffing will take care of that ,get it the best you can and leave it alone.

 

[AGOatemywallet]

Dieback/Shrink?

 

[2black1s]

To the OP...

It's funny... I ran across this thread and read it all the way through. My first thought when looking at what you were up against was what I called "micro checking" back in the day. I was actually going to suggest that you looked at the paint with 10x (or higher) magnification and then I got to your latest post... And you read my mind LOL.

Those 10x shots you have confirm my initial thoughts.

Micro checking is very common on factory acrylic lacquer paints from that era. Your Camaro, as most all GM products from the 60's, have an acrylic lacquer finish. Acrylic lacquer is a brittle finish compared to today's urethanes. It's even a brittle finish compared to the acrylic enamels used by Ford and Chrysler during the same period. Generally speaking, Ford and Chrysler products from that era had more durable finishes (acrylic enamel), but GM products had the best looking (acrylic lacquer). The lacquer finish of GM products was much smoother with a tighter and less prominent orange peel than Ford or Chrysler products and could be polished to a higher gloss than the Ford and Chrysler products.

Expansion and contraction of the finish resulting from temperature changes are the cause of the micro checking. Cycle the paint through these temperature changes enough and the micro checking process begins. Typically the horizontal surfaces see the most dramatic temperature changes and that is where the micro checking is most prominent. Take that a step further and the hood is usually worse than the roof or deck lid. That is due to engine heat. The hood goes through the most severe, and the most repetitive, temperature cycling.

Unfortunately, there is really no amount of compounding/polishing that can correct the condition you're dealing with. Do the best you can and call it a day. Otherwise refinishing is your only option.

Should you decide to refinish, be certain that whoever does the work strips the original finish during the process. If you paint over the existing finish, those cracks will ghost through the new finish in a short time, even if they're not evident initially.

Good Luck... Cool Car!

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike what can you tell me (if anything) from these pics?

Is it salvageable or as good as it can get?

These are through a 10x magnifying glass..

Great close-ups.... :xyxthumbs:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, was kind of busy with SEMA show...

The cracking in the paint looks like a text book example of lacquer cracking. From what I've learned over the years lacquer cracking is caused for a couple of reasons and it's real common with lacquer and even old single stage enamel.

Because these solvent-evaporation single stage paints are much more porous than modern basecoat/clearcoat paints these paints tend to dry out and become brittle.

When the paint is heated from sunlight, ambient temperatures or in the case of the hood from repeated exposure to engine heat, (plus ambient temperatures and sun light heat), it causes the paint to expand or stretch with the underlying metal panels.

Then it cools down and contracts. This combination of drying out and becoming brittle over time plus expanding and contracting causes microscopic cracks in the paint in the random pattern your pictures reveal.

There's nothing you can do about it now. It's possible that if the paint had been regularly polished and I mean r-e-g-u-l-a-r-l-y polished with a product like the #7 it may have slowed the lacquer cracking damage down or even prevented it. But who knew about this practice back then?

Since the cracks go INTO the paint if you continue to compound or polish the paint you will simply remove more of the surface material and expose more of the crack. At some point you will see a lightening of the color as you get closer to the metallic flake.

It's possible to cause tiger stripes by buffing too much and if you really buff to much you'll see primer and then shiny sheetmetal.

If it were mine I would maintain with the #7 and if it looks good then apply a true show car wax like the Pinnacle Souveran Paste Wax.

 

[cookdw]

Thanks gentlemen!