Skill vs tools

[Spicy McHaggis]

Wooooow! It's amazing to hear how quickly some of us can take the majority of the credit for our work based on skillset. Sure you can buy some cheap OTC products to hide your paint's imperfections, but is that really something to be so proud of? Who among us can do a 2 or 3 step full correction by hand and even if you think you can, do you really want to? Last time I checked my Flex spins and rotates a lot faster than my hand. Let's not get the facts twisted.

I believe you are taking this too literally. I don't think the OP is refering to doing things by hand, just using good tools vs. crappy tools. Obviously any buffer will do better than by hand, I don't think anyone would argue that.

 

[DLB]

I believe you are taking this too literally. I don't think the OP is refering to doing things by hand, just using good tools vs. crappy tools. Obviously any buffer will do better than by hand, I don't think anyone would argue that.

DLB

 

[CleanGene]

I believe you are taking this too literally. I don't think the OP is refering to doing things by hand, just using good tools vs. crappy tools. Obviously any buffer will do better than by hand, I don't think anyone would argue that.

If that was the intent of the OP than okay, but the ratio of skillset to tool still seems to be a little extreme IMO. For example, I've watched videos of Mike Philips where he's taken people with no detailing experience and put a DA in their hands and stood by as they turned out amazing results. Was it their skillset and detailing knowledge that produced the results or was it a little supervision and the proper tool?

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

If that was the intent of the OP than okay, but the ratio of skillset to tool still seems to be a little extreme IMO. For example, I've watched videos of Mike Philips where he's taken people with no detailing experience and put a DA in their hands and stood by as they turned out amazing results. Was it their skillset and detailing knowledge that produced the results or was it a little supervision and the proper tool?

If Mike hadn't been there how well do you think it would have turned out? Also even with Mike there someone with actual experience and knowledge could get better results doing it themselves.

Are you trying to say that detailing is fool proof and anyone can do it? Because by looking at posts of "show and shines" on various forums I can assure you that no everyone can do it, at least not well.

 

[CleanGene]

All I'm saying is that our tools deserve a little more credit than what some of us give them. Without them, we wouldn't be the detailers we think we are.

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

All I'm saying is that our tools deserve a little more credit than what some of us give them. Without them, we wouldn't be the detailers we think we are.

Again I disagree. As long as you have A buffer and the skils/experience/ knowledge, you can turn out a good detail. Skill has much more to do with it than quality of the tool and products. IMO

 

[CleanGene]

Could you achieve great results one without the other? You can have all the skills needed but without the tool to enable them, what do you have? I didn't say it had to be a top of line tool, but just the tool in general.

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

Could you achieve great results one without the other? You can have all the skills needed but without the tool to enable them, what do you have? I didn't say it had to be a top of line tool, but just the tool in general.

Agreed, as I said a buffer beats by hand anyday anywhere no matter who you are. But if we are talking machines, skill always prevails.

 

[Bates Detailing]

I wonder how many people on here wash there clothes by hand and washboard?!?!?! Bet you can clean them better than a washing machine if you are use to doing them by hand and care enough to get them that much cleaner. If you have always used a washing machine - you may very well have the skill and patience to do an amazing job by hand - but man that washing machine does a good job in a speedy amount of time. Then when you step up to a top of the line washing machine results are even better than the $50 craigslist washer you bought used. Technology products and tools wise is huge in this business. I believe one still needs to acquire skills to service with these tools as well. You can use a top of the washing machine - but put to much bleach, or a red shirt with whites, or too much soap - and what do you get..... crappy results or damaged clothes. You still have to have the skills to operate these products and machines to produce quality results. Back in the day 99% skill 1 % tools..... today probably 50/50 in my book - can't produce the "best" results without one or the other.

 

[CleanGene]

Agreed, as I said a buffer beats by hand anyday anywhere no matter who you are. But if we are talking machines, skill always prevails.

:iagree: We have all witnessed the damage that an unskilled person can do with a rotary, but in the hands of a skilled user that same rotary can turn out some truly amazing results. We should never take the tools we use for granted, because without them we could not easily achieved the results that we are so accustomed to. Man + Machine = WIN :buffing:

 

[DLB]

I wonder how many people on here wash there clothes by hand and washboard?!?!?! Bet you can clean them better than a washing machine if you are use to doing them by hand and care enough to get them that much cleaner. If you have always used a washing machine - you may very well have the skill and patience to do an amazing job by hand - but man that washing machine does a good job in a speedy amount of time. Then when you step up to a top of the line washing machine results are even better than the $50 craigslist washer you bought used. Technology products and tools wise is huge in this business. I believe one still needs to acquire skills to service with these tools as well. You can use a top of the washing machine - but put to much bleach, or a red shirt with whites, or too much soap - and what do you get..... crappy results or damaged clothes. You still have to have the skills to operate these products and machines to produce quality results. Back in the day 99% skill 1 % tools..... today probably 50/50 in my book - can't produce the "best" results without one or the other.

B&B, your analogy breaks down rather quickly. Forgetting hand washing, hand polishing, etc. for a second; Would you agree to this statement "The washing machine is doing all the work once you pour in the correct amount of correct washing liquid, and turn it on the right setting."

Now, insert ANY detailing tool into that statement. rops:

:iagree: We have all witnessed the damage that an unskilled person can do with a rotary, but in the hands of a skilled user that same rotary can turn out some truly amazing results. We should never take the tools we use for granted, because without them we could not easily achieved the results that we are so accustomed to. Man + Machine = WIN :buffing:

Well said.

DLB

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

:iagree: We have all witnessed the damage that an unskilled person can do with a rotary, but in the hands of a skilled user that same rotary can turn out some truly amazing results. We should never take the tools we use for granted, because without them we could not easily achieved the results that we are so accustomed to. Man + Machine = WIN :buffing:

:iagree:

 

[Bates Detailing]

B&B, your analogy breaks down rather quickly. Forgetting hand washing, hand polishing, etc. for a second; Would you agree to this statement "The washing machine is doing all the work once you pour in the correct amount of correct washing liquid, and turn it on the right setting."

Now, insert ANY detailing tool into that statement. rops:


DLB

Nah - I actually do all basic exteriors by hand cause I think they are much more effective quality wise than doing a quick wash with soap and water. I will do a one step with my makita or cyclo before hand waxing any day personally.

It was just a simple analogy - there are thousands of simple analogies that can be picked apart and argued for this situation. But I do stick to :

no skill + machine = sub par to disastrous results ..............

skill + no machine = good results, but could be better - unless spending countless hours and energy on one vehicle

skill + machine = best results in a timely and efficient manner.


A gentleman posted a Show N Shine on here recently where he completely wet sanded a car and did the works to it - turned out amazing! Took him 50 hours with nice tools to achieve the quality he produced. He could have very well done it by hand - 100 hrs later "maybe" produced the same results. Exhaustion will play a role eventually as well, maybe leaving sub par results as well. Either way, the analogy was just a quick simple analogy. A 1000 page book could be written on this thread. And Im surely not gonna write it lol!

 

[jpegs13]

A bad hammer doesn't make a bad carpenter and visa versa

 

[Rhudeboye]

If my choice is junk or nothing, I'll take nothing.

Take that experienced race car driver out of his race car and put him in a 62 VW microbus and see how well his experience works.

Your a bit OT. My comment regarding the driver was percentage based. it obvioous you need both. But i put more on the driver as I have witnessed a 360 Ferrari get passed by a 350Z. The Ferrari is far superior in every way but the driver didnt know how to put that power down and run a fast lap. The driver of the Z did. So in my book. 65-75% is driver skill.

Borrowing your own reasoning- Put a skilled driver in a 62 micro bus and you try an match his time. Then you will see where his experience got him. (you however may be a good track driver yourself idk)

If his tool (race car) wasn't 100% then he would never win a race no matter how skilled.

It takes both skill and products working together to produce the best results.

100% meaning in good working order? in the example everything is 100% working order. A $25 buffer will be in 100% working order as will your products. Your limited is the quality of product. ie turtle wax car wash, cheap mf towels, windex etc. I, like many others here, think a skilled individual could achieve satisfying results with the basics.

 

[feslope]

I disagree. A skilled detailer with a junk buffer will still get better result than a novice with a brand new flex.

Also a skilled racecar driver will out drive a novice driver in a faster car. Obviously not a micro bus vs. a ferrari, but you get the point.

No I Don't. We are talking skill and tools here.

The novice with the brand new Flex will aquire skill and experience and grow into his tool. The experienced guy with the junk tools will fall behind.

I was the concessioneer at the Michigan Intl. Speedway for 19 seasons. Usually the teams with the most money and best equipment won.

 

[DLB]

skill + machine = best results in a timely and efficient manner.

I absolutely agree.

I think we are hitting several different aspects to the topic.

I think what Spicy and I are saying is that a better machine doesn't make a better detailer. A machine is involved either way though...Just like John's (jpegs13) post. ^

For the sake of the thread - ANALOGIES should be left out of it. Say it for what it is.

DLB

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

No I Don't. We are talking skill and tools here.

The novice with the brand new Flex will aquire skill and experience and grow into his tool. The experienced guy with the junk tools will fall behind.

I was the concessioneer at the Michigan Intl. Speedway for 19 seasons. Usually the teams with the most money and best equipment won.

but until that newbie with the flex learns he will not do as well. Of course if he has the same skill he will do better than the pro with the junk tools. But until he gets the skills the tool itself will not make his details better.

As far as the racing that is because everyone was a pro and on a similar skill level. So in essence skill was taken out of it since they were so evenly matched. therefore the better equipment won. A pro in a street car still beats a novice in a race car. it's really simple.

 

[feslope]

This thread is going too fast for me. I consider anything in the AG store to be a quality tool. Quality does not always mean the most expensive. I like quality tools that I can improve with not be limited by as I gain experience.

 

[feslope]

but until that newbie with the flex learns he will not do as well. Of course if he has the same skill he will do better than the pro with the junk tools. But until he gets the skills the tool itself will not make his details better.

As far as the racing that is because everyone was a pro and on a similar skill level. So in essence skill was taken out of it since they were so evenly matched. therefore the better equipment won. A pro in a street car still beats a novice in a race car. it's really simple.

OK.....Works for me. :xyxthumbs: