Video: Wow! 3M #5000 Grit Polishing I mean Sanding Discs!

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Re: Wow! 3M #5000 Grit Polishing I mean Sanding Discs!

That's actually pretty sweet in my opinion! Thanks for taking the time to do this work and share the results with everyone Mike. :props:
 
I cannot see a lilt to the video Mike said he posted.. Can anyone else?
 
Thanks Mike. It is really neat to see the side-by-side of the different sanding discs/pads and the difference that foam backing makes on its own. Could use those 5k pads right about now for a Mustang I am working on. Mirka Abralon discs on my PC7424(non XP) aren't gving me very uniform results and leaving tick marks/arcs. Can't wait to see AG carrying the 5k pads.:)
 
Mike, have you made any video's showing the proper technique on using the sanding disc?
 
I saw you had Meguiars mf system on the table. Would love to see how the d300/cutting disc does.

Thanks for taking my request and putting the video up for all of us to see Mike. Really appreciate it.
 
rwright said:
That's actually pretty sweet in my opinion! Thanks for taking the time to do this work and share the results with everyone Mike.
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No problemo, I still have the rest of the panel to buff out and some other products to test today so more pics later...


BigBrad said:
I cannot see a lilt to the video Mike said he posted.. Can anyone else?
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I'm using IE and it's there...



:)
 
This method has been around for years, and was pioneered by 3M.

The PPG and DuPont training facilities for collision repair both use the unigrit paper with a D/A, followed by either Trizact 3000 foam discs or 4000 grit Abralon discs.

When denibbing or panel matching orange peel, you start with 1200 or 1500 grit on a D/A followed up by the 3000 grit Trizact. Then, all you need is a simple foam pad with a mild polish to restore the shine.

All this is done dry...there is no need to wetsand anything. Matter of fact, the refinish industry doesn't like to work on freshly painted panels or vehicles with water.

Plus, dry sanding lets you immediately see how much material you are removing, so that you can panel match, bring it perfectly flat, or remove debris or nibs in the paint.

:dblthumb2:
 
BLKZ06 said:
This method has been around for years, and was pioneered by 3M.
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I've been told the 3M #5000 disc I showing is brand new to the market, at least it's brand new to me.



BLKZ06 said:
All this is done dry...there is no need to wetsand anything. Matter of fact, the refinish industry doesn't like to work on freshly painted panels or vehicles with water.
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Just to note, technically I'm showing dampsanding where very little water is used versus wetsanding where more water is used.

Wetsanding, Colorsanding & Dampsanding


The Meguiar's Unigrit Discs are designed to be used wet, I'm not even sure they would work if you used them dry. Perhaps the S61500 would but if it's designed to be used wet then using it dry would wear it out prematurely.

This #5000 disc appears to have the abrasives embodied in a medium somewhat like the Meguiar's Unigrit discs, if this is so then they too need to be used wet. I have a phone call into 3M to confirm.



BLKZ06 said:
Plus, dry sanding lets you immediately see how much material you are removing, so that you can panel match, bring it perfectly flat, or remove debris or nibs in the paint.
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Those are good but you have to use discs intended to be used dry. Also with dry sanding you should wear some type of respirator, especially if you don't know what type of coating you are sanding.

I have friends that dry sand, it's dusty work and you'll get dust all over everything. With dampsanding all the paint particles are wiped off onto a microfiber towel, very little splatter makes it to the floor compared to wetsanding.

Also with dry sanding your papers or discs will tend to clog faster with a build-up of removed paint. With wetsanding the paint particles are flushed off the paper and contained in the water slurry.

Don't matter to me which approach is used but do be sure to use a sanding/finishing paper or disc designed for each approach.

As soon as I hear back from 3M on the wet versus dry for the #5000 Foam Discs I'll update this thread.


:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
I've been told the 3M #5000 disc I showing is brand new to the market, at least it's brand new to me.





Just to note, technically I'm showing dampsanding where very little water is used versus wetsanding where more water is used.

Wetsanding, Colorsanding & Dampsanding


The Meguiar's Unigrit Discs are designed to be used wet, I'm not even sure they would work if you used them dry. Perhaps the S61500 would but if it's designed to be used wet then using it dry would wear it out prematurely.

This #5000 disc appears to have the abrasives embodied in a medium somewhat like the Meguiar's Unigrit discs, if this is so then they too need to be used wet. I have a phone call into 3M to confirm.





Those are good but you have to use discs intended to be used dry. Also with dry sanding you should wear some type of respirator, especially if you don't know what type of coating you are sanding.

I have friends that dry sand, it's dusty work and you'll get dust all over everything. With dampsanding all the paint particles are wiped off onto a microfiber towel, very little splatter makes it to the floor compared to wetsanding.

Also with dry sanding your papers or discs will tend to clog faster with a build-up of removed paint. With wetsanding the paint particles are flushed off the paper and contained in the water slurry.

Don't matter to me which approach is used but do be sure to use a sanding/finishing paper or disc designed for each approach.

As soon as I hear back from 3M on the wet versus dry for the #5000 Foam Discs I'll update this thread.


:)
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I find dry sanding to be more prone to getting pig tails too...that and I hate sanding dust, which is why I never went into body work with the old man. ;)
 
BLKZ06 said:
All this is done dry...there is no need to wetsand anything. Matter of fact, the refinish industry doesn't like to work on freshly painted panels or vehicles with water.
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I just confirmed with Jason Rose that the 3M #5000 Trizact Foam Discs are designed and intended to be used wet as in dampsanding.

Jason is the Product Manager for the Meguiar's Professional Line, which means he's the Product Manager for the Unigrit Sanding products. He also has close working relationships with his counterparts in this area at 3M.

Still waiting to hear back from my 3M Rep but he's going to repeat what Jason stated.


My friend Wayne, who is the painter that painted this car just e-mailed me, told me he has a wetsanding or in my case, dampsanding project coming up, as soon as I find out what it is I'll post a picture.

Blown 1934 Ford Pick-up - Show Car Makeover - Modeled by Kristin

Project34012.jpg




:)
 
I can confirm that dry sanding is not the best idea for the do it yourselfer, weekend warrior, or even a semi proffessional detailer. I work in a body shop now and we do a lot of dry sanding. However our dry sanding is pretty much everything under 1200 grit. With that said we dry sand with 400 or so and then primer paint and so on. If we are doing a big wigs car, (Im militaray) then we will go the extra steps to get that reflection with the higher grit and of course dampsand.

So for the rest of my forum friends I dont recommend dry sanding at all. It is a pain, dust gets everywhere and I mean everywhere, you wear a resperator, and you and your clothes get filthy from the dust.
 
Heard back from my 3M Rep, really knowledgeable guy named Dennis, he was here at Detail Fest for those that attended...

Here's what Dennis replied back to my questions,

Questions:

  1. How long have these been on the market?
  2. Are they for wetsanding only? Or can they be used dry?

Answer
Mike,

They became available May 1st, 2012 but in a limited test area.

The Trizact 5000 is to be used wet or damp after using the 3000.

The jump is to big from 1500 to 5000. After the 5000 the scratch is fine enough to skip compounding in MOST cases. If compounding is needed the time spent will me minimal.

Thanks again for testing this new product. If you have any further questions let me know and I am curious of what you think.


Regards,

Dennis P.
Senior Account Representative
3M Automotive Aftermarket
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When I first pulled a disc out of the box and looked at it and felt it I could tell it was for wet or dampsanding only so that's how I used it and now I've confirmed it with 3M.

Plus the close-up picture I took and posted in this thread also shows that it's for dampsanding, not dry sanding.


New Toy - #5000 Grit Trizact Foam Finishing Discs

Came into work this morning and found a box of 3M Trizact #5000 Foam Discs on my desk to test out...

Meguiar's #3000 is considered a ultra fine grit sanding/finishing disc
Mirka Abralon #4000 is considered an ultra fine grit sanding/finishing disc

I guess this makes 3M #5000 Ultra Ultra Fine?
dunno.gif



#5000 Grit Trizact Foam Finishing Discs
TrizactFoam5000_01.jpg


Front
TrizactFoam5000_02.jpg



Back
TrizactFoam5000_04.jpg



Close-up
TrizactFoam5000_03.jpg



:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
I've been told the 3M #5000 disc I showing is brand new to the market, at least it's brand new to me.
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Notice I didn't say the 5000 had been around for years, just the method. Sorry for any confusion.

Yep, the 3000 also definitely says to dampsand, but its to minimize paper loading and extend paper life as you pointed out. With the right D/A and orbit (usually 3/32") that is not even an issue.Im the MAN

My instructor went thru roughly 30 boxes of Trizact a week, and he never had good results with dampsanding with it either. Its could possibly be air D/A related.

Regardless, my experience (and numerous other guys who refinish/paint/etc) is the 3000 Trizact works as well damp or dry. You may go thru a little bit more paper...but its not the end of the world.

Can't comment on the 5000 since I obviously haven't used it. But common logic would tell me that an abrasive that fine would REALLY need some water to make sure it didn't totally clog up.


Of course, everyones experiences are different.






Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Just to note, technically I'm showing dampsanding where very little water is used versus wetsanding where more water is used.

Wetsanding, Colorsanding & Dampsanding


The Meguiar's Unigrit Discs are designed to be used wet, I'm not even sure they would work if you used them dry. Perhaps the S61500 would but if it's designed to be used wet then using it dry would wear it out prematurely.

This #5000 disc appears to have the abrasives embodied in a medium somewhat like the Meguiar's Unigrit discs, if this is so then they too need to be used wet. I have a phone call into 3M to confirm.
Click to expand...

I haven't used Meguiars paper..I strictly use 3M...its great stuff, and I have never had an issue with it wearing out prematurely. I imagine the Meguiars paper is awesome too.


Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Those are good but you have to use discs intended to be used dry. Also with dry sanding you should wear some type of respirator, especially if you don't know what type of coating you are sanding.

I have friends that dry sand, it's dusty work and you'll get dust all over everything. With dampsanding all the paint particles are wiped off onto a microfiber towel, very little splatter makes it to the floor compared to wetsanding.

Also with dry sanding your papers or discs will tend to clog faster with a build-up of removed paint. With wetsanding the paint particles are flushed off the paper and contained in the water slurry.

Don't matter to me which approach is used but do be sure to use a sanding/finishing paper or disc designed for each approach.

As soon as I hear back from 3M on the wet versus dry for the #5000 Foam Discs I'll update this thread.


:)
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Agreed..it can be dusty, but I don't find it anymore messy than wetsanding for the most part. And honestly, the system is designed to be used with a vac attachment to keep dust to a minimum. Most guys never hook it up, though. I use mine, and it works like a charm. :xyxthumbs:

Honestly never had any issue with the paper clogging- 3M's Finishing Films are made specifically for clearcoat cutting used dry.

Thanks for the feedback nonetheless...always good to get different perspectives.

:buffing:
 
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What would happen if you WETsanded with these discs instead of dampsanding?
 
ZEE BEST said:
What would happen if you WETsanded with these discs instead of dampsanding?
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You would hyper-lubricate the surface and reduce cutting action.

I cover this in my in-depth article on the topic here,

Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips

The above article is very long and has I think around 150 pictures in it, all cropped and resized to 800 pixels wide max and inserted, not attached.

Here's the pertinent part...



Mike Phillips said:
Water Volume?
Damp-sanding is using only a few mists of water. Meguiar’s new Unigrit Sanding and Finishing Discs MUST be used wet but not over-wet. All you need is a mist or two of clear water to the face of the pad and a few mists of water to the surface to be sanded. Damp-sanding should not be a wet-mess on the car, or on the ground surrounding the car.

  • Too much water will hyper-lubricate the surface and reduce cutting action.
  • Too little water will increase cutting, clog disc and wear disc out prematurely.
Unigrit Sanding and Finishing Discs are always used wet. Use water only - no sanding lube (soap).


Use a clean water source - no soap or sanding lube
DampSanding23.jpg



It's safer to error on the side of caution and use an extra mist or two of water until you get a feel for the right balance for your environmental conditions. Temperature, humidity, airflow, affect all machine sanding process including the Unigrit Sanding System so there can be no hard and fast recommendations. Practice makes perfect.

VITALLY IMPORTANT
It's vitally important that you stay focused on the amount of water you're using when damp-sanding because if you use too much water and your disc hydroplanes, you can mis-read this to mean the disc is spent of used-up and no longer cutting.

If the disc is in fact still good and you throw it away because you used too much water then you waste a good disc and these are not inexpensive.
​
Remember, it's not wet sanding it’s damp-sanding
I took the below picture after completely sanding down a 1969 El Camino. Note the water level in the clear spray bottle.

Only 16 ounces of water used to sand an entire 1969 El Camino
DampSanding38.jpg



This is a 32 ounce spray bottle and I never refilled it during the sanding process, this means I used approximately 16 ounces of water to sand down a full size, domestic vehicle.
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Great question Marc...


:xyxthumbs:
 
I have been using the 3m disc's for awhile, and the only thing that will put a dent in my cars clear. Compounding alone with a rotary is almost a wast of time unless you wet sand first. In my opinion on very hard clears with clear coat scratches the 3000 and sometimes 2500 is the only way to get them out. Now on OEM paint and other types of softer paint I try buffing first. I feel wet sanding by hand to be safer then trying to run a rotary with a aggressive pad and heavy compound. What I mean is it is easier to get out 3000 sand scratches then to try compound alone. Make sense? And yes it is damp sanding, sand papaer in a bucket of water.
 
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