Water Spot Issues after Coatings are applied and how Paint reacts to hot and cold temperatures

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Velocitybts

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The below scenario I think it would be interesting to see how Mike/detailers would go about correcting the issue, or what can be done or not done.

1. A car (Aston Martin DB9) is paint corrected to perfection (20hrs spent) then coated with a coating such as CQuartz, 22PLE, Gyeon, Modesta etc.... 3 weeks later the customer comes back in and says there are water spots that appear below the coating. The customer says its not always visible but from certain angles they can see them and its driving them crazy.
a. you know the paint was perfect before the coating. So you inspect the vehicle, and sure enough at certain angles you can see the water spots, AND they are below the coating or in it, but not on the surface.
b. you need to make the customer happy so what are the next steps and what are the issues you will have?


Water Spots----- you know they are likely beneath the coating, however after you have washed the car, and brought the car inside and you are ready to start trying to remove the coating, you can no longer see any of the water spots!!!!
a. So, you pull the car back outside and leave it sitting to think about what the next step is while working a current customers car inside.
b. while taking a break you walk outside and notice----sure enough there are the water spots showing up again.
c. you immediately pull the car inside, let it cool down, and when using your swirl light again on it after it is cool you cannot find the spots anymore.

A> List out what or how or why you think the water spots are showing sometimes but not others
B> What is your next step?
C> The car has a coating on it, how do you know when you have removed the coating without taking off more clear coat?


This ends up being very complex as to why and how this situation can arise, and leaves the business in a pickle of what to do. I hope this will be interesting to see how Mike would handle it, explain how or why this is happening, and what others think of how to approach this.


In the end, I hope the readers learn a lot more about Paint (clear coat) and how it reacts with heat, and how to handle situations dealing with Coatings after the fact!!!!!
 
Just a primer question, but once coated, was it cured with IR light or how long was it indoors@ the shop prior to being released into unknow environmental conditos
 
This is a topic discussed by Kevin Brown in one of Larry from AMMO NYC podcast. It is podcast episode 30: Branding and Coating Issues. Take a listen and it will explain this problem exactly and how to fix it. Best of luck!
 
Opps, sorry,

When the Vehicle was coated with the coating the IR heat lamps were used to cure the coating.

Sorry important point
 
Caleb@ImpeccableImage said:
This is a topic discussed by Kevin Brown in one of Larry from AMMO NYC podcast. It is podcast episode 30: Branding and Coating Issues. Take a listen and it will explain this problem exactly and how to fix it. Best of luck!
Click to expand...

Yep, it sure was. good catch, however this is a subject I have never seen talked about on this forum. The specifics of paint expansion and how that can affect conditions for working on the cars. Thought this would be a great way to discuss issues with coatings (and other issues not specifically pertaining to them) and get Mikes input on it.

I did have a slightly similar issue as done above, just not as in depth and as much as a problem. SO I expounded on that a bit to make it more of a discussion topic and I think it should be close to what was in that podcast possibly.
 
Intended posting is supposed to garner the discussion of what you guys are dealing with due to coatings. They have been out for a few years now so longevity, difficultness in removing, re-applications etc.... are all topics that haven't been discussed on this forum as far as I can find.

1. Do any of you accept into your shops a car that was previously coated and the customer asking for a paint correction?
2. IF so, how are you gauging the depth of the coating vs. the clear paint layer. ie.....How do you know when you have cut through the layer of coating?

Those above questions are the purpose of this thread. IF those are not answered then it means detialers are avoiding the issue with coatings and not wanting to discuss those points, or refuse to allow previously coated cars into their shop. I know many don't want them. Due to the time to remove the coating, expense of that, and issues that can or could evolve in doing so.

My point is for High-end cars such as F cars, P cars, AM cars, RR, Mclarens etc........ DO you or do you not want to advise a customer to coat it due to possible issues down the road. I own a Aston Martin and I also love coatings. However in scientifically thinking about it, I wont be coating the vehicle due to possible issues down the road with it. One definite one----it will get marred somehow for sure. When it does, how do I know when I have buffed the coating off and then can work on leveling the clear coat? You cant, so chances are too likely that you would wear the clear layer out which prevents correction ability 20yrs down the road for someone. That is our job as detailers, to provide the best knowledgable advice to the customer for their car, using the car to advise. I feel that advising customers for high end cars to go with a coating is possibly counter-productive to the car being pristine itself. Love to hear some thoughts on this.

PS. I do love coatings----- I only use them on wheels, under body trays, suspension components, trim, interior bits etc.....but not on high-end paint. A DD such as a AMG Merc, sure why not use it on the paint, they are great products, but we are talking possible collector cars.
 
Caleb@ImpeccableImage said:
This is a topic discussed by Kevin Brown in one of Larry from AMMO NYC podcast. It is podcast episode 30: Branding and Coating Issues. Take a listen and it will explain this problem exactly and how to fix it. Best of luck!
Click to expand...

downside to anything Larry at AMMO does is he takes 20 minutes to explain what could be done in 30 seconds. his vids and instructional stuff is painful to watch. I don't even tune in anymore.
 
Are these coatings so durable that they will stand up against a polishing? I know some are leery claying a coating for fear of removing it.

Do they provide a measurable thickness?

If only half polished off, does it leave a noticeable line between the two?

What are these other problems that you speak of?

Wouldn't the same car, uncoated or not, still have swirls and marring that would need to be removed requiring polishing, and hence removing more clear anyway?

Why not treat like any other car that needs a correction, decon, clay, polish?
 
Velocitybts said:
When it does, how do I know when I have buffed the coating off and then can work on leveling the clear coat? You cant, so chances are too likely that you would wear
Click to expand...

I'm either mis-reading this , but what diff. does it make to some degree. You're only leveling it as much as you choose - to change how it looks in the refracted light. Whether you're leveling the coating or CC, you're still just leveling it enough to minimize said swirl/marring...
 
If I do a car that has water spots I use the IR lamp to make sure the spot are gone. If not I do what is needed to remove the remaining marks. Obviously measuring the paint as I go. We coat a lot of collector cars mainly for the ease of maintenance for the client, but as a side effect they look great. It has been my experience that you can notice a slightly different color when the coating is removed. You also have to be really concerned with residue control and clean the pads after every pass, if you're not doing that now. If I have a car that is coated I do charge extra as I won't re use those pads.
 
Thank you Mike for providing some good real life feedback!
 
Mike -

Not a pro, just a joe. I've tossed the applicators and consider the MF a consumable to be tossed after application.

Does the residue in coating when polishing off create "noticable micromarring", that requires either frequent cleaning /swapping of pads - per your last comment
 
Mike lambert said:
If I do a car that has water spots I use the IR lamp to make sure the spot are gone. If not I do what is needed to remove the remaining marks. Obviously measuring the paint as I go. We coat a lot of collector cars mainly for the ease of maintenance for the client, but as a side effect they look great. It has been my experience that you can notice a slightly different color when the coating is removed. You also have to be really concerned with residue control and clean the pads after every pass, if you're not doing that now. If I have a car that is coated I do charge extra as I won't re use those pads.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mike, This is what I am after for discussion about coatings. You did answer the water spot issue perfectly. Most people don't know or understand that when water spots occur the panels are typically heated up by the sun, which expands them. Then the water dries leaving the chemical residue and then the panel contracts taking a portion of the chemicals with it. Now its embedded in the paint itself to a degree and the only way to be really sure you have removed all the spots is to heat the panel up so they fully show up, then remove them. The contracting and expanding of panels under heat is what I was after. NO ONE typically talks about that stuff on here. I used the example in the padcast to bring this into a discussion. Was an easy way to back up my observations.

Residue control is also a huge topic which does apply to coatings when removing them. Glad you touched upon that
 
chefwong said:
I'm either mis-reading this , but what diff. does it make to some degree. You're only leveling it as much as you choose - to change how it looks in the refracted light. Whether you're leveling the coating or CC, you're still just leveling it enough to minimize said swirl/marring...
Click to expand...

Sir,
You are correct in saying you only level as much as you need or choose too. However with coatings, the question was how much can you remove safely now that the coating was applied. If it was your original customer, and you took measurements of paint all over the car, documented them, and then applied the coating, you would then be able to reasonably tell how much paint is there. Yes, a few coatings are slightly measureable. Modesta being one of those.

If you did not have prior measurements, or wasn't your original customer, then you don't know how much actual clear is left on top of the paint. There is no way to actually know. So guessing on a high end customer car is not safe. So you start removing the coating by compounds and MF pads, but how do you know when its all off? Then you will have micromarring from the coating residue and will have to continue to polish that part and make level. So in the end, did you take a huge percentage of clear off the car just removing what you think is the coating? That is the danger. Especially when the panels are heated up under IR light, and the panels expand. When the panels contract, a portion of the coatings will embed themselves into the clear layer, so that would indicate even more of the clear you would have to take off, just to remove the coating.

These are real world issues with coatings in general. For DD it really doesn't make a huge difference. But for a possible collector car, or high end car this can be a possible problem. There is a lot of risk in taking coatings off cars. Yes, products like Modesta, 22ple, CQaurtz etc.... are much more difficult to deal with then some of the types like Pinnacle lotions and crèmes. So trying to bring this into discussion to see what others are doing about it. Its about time with the progression of coatings to start dealing with these issues.
 
Velocity -

Isn't this the same challenge you approach anyway depending on time/money/value/skillset of the operator ?

I lost you on the last paragraph. What's the difference if you diminish the CC on a DD as opposed to diminishing the CC on a exotic. The value of CC to the customer is just the same.


How about super soft paint, where even just wiping off polish residue creates marring.
What do you do then. Refuse to polish cars with soft paint.

I don't think there is a universal answer to the OP.
 
chefwong said:
Velocity -

Isn't this the same challenge you approach anyway depending on time/money/value/skillset of the operator ?

I lost you on the last paragraph. What's the difference if you diminish the CC on a DD as opposed to diminishing the CC on a exotic. The value of CC to the customer is just the same.


How about super soft paint, where even just wiping off polish residue creates marring.
What do you do then. Refuse to polish cars with soft paint.




I don't think there is a universal answer to the OP.
Click to expand...

Isn't this the same challenge you approach anyway depending on time/money/value/skillset of the operator ?------ Sure it is, however there are many many detailers (or hobbyists) using coatings nowadays as the newest next best thing since sliced bread. Have you seen a thread discussing the removal of it? I have seen it once, and I think Mike addressed it and said you just buff it off. But that was it. So, you have a "professional" detailer who coats a car, then the customers wife runs it through a car wash scratching it up. Their thought is to just buff the car again to remove the coating and scratches. But, since part of the coating embedded into the clear layer during the IR curing process, he must go even more into the paint to get to where it can be corrected. Thus, minimizing the clear layer to a degree where it may become non able to be corrected again. (however since there were no previouse paint measurements in that spot, you don't know how much of actual clear is left) The detailer likely doesn't think that its because of the coating that more was removed than necessary. This appears that it could be very problematic, unless you don't care and are only after the money for coatings.

What's the difference if you diminish the CC on a DD as opposed to diminishing the CC on a exotic. The value of CC to the customer is just the same.--------- Most DD have a lifetime of usefulness. Likely around 10 years and probably 95% of them will never be paint corrected. That's why you don't see Berettas or Cavaliers on the road any more. So, a DD being coated, and even paint corrected numerous times to where the CC layer is almost gone is likely not a big deal ever, plus if it were to be repainted or a panel repainted who cares as long as it matches. Likely doesn't hurt the value ever. Exotics-------Have you seen a 5k exotic for sale? No, because even in the worst shape at some point in their life they will start appreciating in value or remain at a set amount for a long time. So, if a panel is repainted on an exotic, well you just lost 20% of the cars value, and its likely not a contender for a collectible ever again. So, you the detailer should advise the owner to as how what you are using may affect the vehicle down the road. Using a coating will without doubt end up causing an increased removal of CC at some point in time. 5 Years later when the coating has worn down, and you go to correct it again, you will remove residual layers of coating still left embedded in the top layers of paint that will need removal before actually getting the swirls removed. Thus, since the embedding of coating material creates marring, when its gone, you will need to refine that marring. We are talking 10ths of microns here. But for an edge that only has 1 micron of CC to work with over the life of the car, this counts.

Exotic owners typically care about how the car will be down the road. I don't want to take too much clear off my Aston Martin DB9, because down the road for the next guy, or a collectible with original paint, it would be near impossible if only a minute layer is left. So, of course I want the paint to be perfect but I must minimize any and all things that reduce the clear layer.


How about super soft paint, where even just wiping off polish residue creates marring.
What do you do then. Refuse to polish cars with soft paint.---------- I don't do this as a business. However, I would flat refuse to take in a customer with a coating that wasn't applied by me for removal. Too much work, too risky and not worth the huge amount of time it takes to remove it, plus the loss of many MF pads in the process. Super Soft Paint------------I have one of the softest paints on cars now. On two of my cars. Yes, it is a pain!!!!!!!!!!!!. I worked with Mike several years ago on my 02' Mustang 5.0 in Navy Blue, where on the hood no matter what I did slight marring showed up.

Start investigating. I polished it perfect again, wiped it down and no marring. I used GTechniq Panel Wipe, and bingo, there was slight marring. So re-polished it and used Pinnacle lotion to remove the oils, removed it and bingo, there was slight marring. Re-polished it (didn't take much, 2 passes w/ no cut pad and SF4500), then washed it in citrus soap to removed the oils and blew the car off, bingo, marring again. Reworked it, then didn't use wash mit, but MF towels, and NO marring this time. Then used 22PLE w/ the 22ple pad provided and after curing again, dammit there was very slight marring. This time, we figured it was the applicator that did it, and only showed up after curing. So instead of working the CC again, I left it due to being so minute. 2 years later I did go back for the hood only (only place there was an issue) and this time used the sueade applicators and it came out perfect. Mike figured that the CC on the car was so soft, that anything basically touching it without lubrication was marring it.

Aston Martin----- I have paint correct 4 of them. I have not done my own (Black) due to just bought it and I am in the Middle East, so wont pick it up till Dec). They are a pain w/. soft paint sometimes. But, typically finish out very well. You just have to be careful and work surgically clean in doing them. I use MF cutting pads---likely around 6 per car blowing them out after every section area, Foam use about 8 pads for cutting and blowing them out after every section. Then I do the same with polishing pads - 8 per car blowing those out too. Depending on how soft it is, I might run around a friends car with a no cut pad (5-6 of them) using Rupes Diamond polish with very little pressure to finish it off. This allows for a show car finish with no marring. Soft Cars you have to be careful using applicator pads also. Only high quality MF towels allow for no marring also.

ALL I am trying to bring into discussion is the mere fact that Coatings can bring into the picture difficulties after application for customers, and how people on here are dealing with those. @Mike Lambert has added to this, confirming some of what I have written. But, none of the threads cover Coating issues after application. Hence this one, but it appears that no one thinks about it, or doesn't care.
 
pdqgp said:
downside to anything Larry at AMMO does is he takes 20 minutes to explain what could be done in 30 seconds. his vids and instructional stuff is painful to watch. I don't even tune in anymore.
Click to expand...

Yep, you're right, had to wait 45 minutes before kevin said what I wanted to hear.
 
RPM_BR said:
Yep, you're right, had to wait 45 minutes before kevin said what I wanted to hear.
Click to expand...

Well you found that podcast, but.... was the information new to you? I am assuming it was, and in that case is it something you have thought about when applying coatings, or selling them to a customer? Plus other issues I have brought up?
 
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