What a day!

IMO and prior experience in other small businesses, there's always those who will 'flatter' you with compliments, (*not saying you didn't give great service of course) and often they are the same ones that become the PITA's later on. I understand in this case the damage was most likely present beforehand and hidden beneath the filth, but to me as a 'newbie' just getting ready to jump in head first, definitely the kind of headache(s) I don't want to incur.. but suspect come with the territory.

This is exactly why I will be licensed and insured before I start performing any work. If I accidentally damage a client's vehicle, you bet I'll eat the repair, but in this case... You have my vote Kris, I wouldn't let it hit my insurance either.
 
I highly doubt a judge would make me pay for this. IF something did happen...it happened outside my business, and it would have been a hit and run situation. Just cause the vehicle was near my shop, doesn't mean I'm responsible for damage done to the vehicle by others.

Was the vehicle left in your possession by the customer? Did you park the vehicle outside of your shop until you were ready to work on it?

If yes, that makes what happened to it YOUR liability. I don't care if it was parked on the other side of town, it was left with you for storage and to have work completed, and if it was not stored in a safe environment such that damage could be done by people you have no control over, it's on you. Period, end of discussion.
 
Was the vehicle left in your possession by the customer? Did you park the vehicle outside of your shop until you were ready to work on it?

If yes, that makes what happened to it YOUR liability. I don't care if it was parked on the other side of town, it was left with you for storage and to have work completed, and if it was not stored in a safe environment such that damage could be done by people you have no control over, it's on you. Period, end of discussion.

I disagree, and so does his insurance company. Just because it was parked outside, doesn't make it my responsibility. I'm not quite sure where you even get that.

Especially with absolutely no evidence of someone actually hitting the vehicle, and no evidence of the damage not being there in the first place.

It goes in no particular direction...cause there's nothing to go off of. It's like the insurance agent said...it's "he said, she said".

The only way I'd be liable, is if he had proof that the damage was done by me. I don't offer safe storage of a vehicle, and never claimed to unless I schedule that time accordingly.

I straight up told him it would be parked outside, and that if he was cool with that...then fine, he can leave it. He opted to take the risk of something possibly happening.

I can't keep a vehicle inside 24/7 just to be sure nobody messes with it. Unless I schedule that time with the customer, vehicles are in and out of here all day 6 days a week.. I've got a 3 bay garage, but vehicles that are worked on that day often stay inside to dry, or let sealant sit. No room for anything else but 2 vehicles, and my van.

He chose to let it sit outside...not me, against my good judgement too. He was well aware of the situation. It was parked off the street, in my lot...which is safe by the way. Which is why NOTHING happened to his vehicle! ha. I think we're forgetting that it's previous damage. Therefore I'm not liable.
 
I'm sorry, again, to hear you going through this. This whole suituation sucks donkey b@lls. I wish you well and hope this passes soon. Whatever may come out of this, this is not only a learning lesson for you, but it is for us, atleast me, as well. Maybe there needs to be a written no obligation section that people sign off on stating if rock chips or any other pre-existing damage is found that you aren't liable...or something to this degree (just throwing things out there for now). I'm really sorry about this man.
 
If someone left a car in my possesion and then someone ran into it, I would be liable. As long as the keys are in my pocket it's my responsibility

I thought we were talking about rock chips on a front bumper cover?!?!?
 
Obviously, Kris, there's no getting a point across to you so I'll leave it alone here. Just don't say I didn't tell you so if a vehicle ever gets hit by Joe Random in your parking lot while it's left in your possession to have work done, and you're found liable.


What was funny? :dunno:
 
Obviously, Kris, there's no getting a point across to you so I'll leave it alone here. Just don't say I didn't tell you so if a vehicle ever gets hit by Joe Random in your parking lot while it's left in your possession to have work done, and you're found liable.

I see where you're coming from. But that isn't the situation.

The whole point is...that nobody actually hit his car. It's damage from the previous owner. He just didn't know it was there until I cleaned it up.

I'm sorry, but a business owner is not liable for damage that a customer is assuming MIGHT have been done in our lot. He doesn't even know if the damage was there before or not...cause he didn't look the car over well enough when he bought it.

It would be different if the whole back bumper was smashed, and it was plainly obvious that the vehicle was hit. But, that's not the situation. If it was...I would take care of it just out of good will with my insurance.

Why should I pay up for something he over looked when purchasing the vehicle. That's not the way it works.

If it was...then anyone could just bring their car to a detailer with damage on the bumper, then when it's finished say "OH, what's this!? That wasn't there before!". It's not that easy, and if it was...people would be doing it every day.

You need proof. His insurance agent said it himself. He said there's no proof on either end...it's just hearsay.
 
You said it was against your better judgement but later you say it's safe there. Seems like there's doubt how safe it is. Regardless of how happy he was with you work of he is upset about the chips then that will be all that he focuses on when he talks about the detail. He won't go around saying "he did a good job but..." he will actually say "I left my car with him and I got it back damaged". While you have loyal customers who know the type of work you do you have to ask yourself "will an unhappy customer damage future business I may get?" in the end what's a few dollars on a bottle of touch up paint and a little bit of time to fix the chips.

If he took you to court I think the burden of proof would be on you to prove your innocence. I'm no expert though but that's the way I would view every situation as a business owner.

I hope everything gets worked out smoothly and you don't have any issues. I really hate to see this happen to anyone here.
 
You said it was against your better judgement but later you say it's safe there. Seems like there's doubt how safe it is. Regardless of how happy he was with you work of he is upset about the chips then that will be all that he focuses on when he talks about the detail. He won't go around saying "he did a good job but..." he will actually say "I left my car with him and I got it back damaged". While you have loyal customers who know the type of work you do you have to ask yourself "will an unhappy customer damage future business I may get?" in the end what's a few dollars on a bottle of touch up paint and a little bit of time to fix the chips.

If he took you to court I think the burden of proof would be on you to prove your innocence. I'm no expert though but that's the way I would view every situation as a business owner.

I hope everything gets worked out smoothly and you don't have any issues. I really hate to see this happen to anyone here.

To sum this up...I'm going to speak with my insurance company, and see if they will cover the damage. I will see if the customer is willing to go halves on anything I have to pay out of pocket. I only say halves because neither one of us is 100% sure what happened. It's only fair.

I feel he at least owes me that much. Especially since I have more certainty than he does that the vehicle was not hit during it's stay with me. It's simply an accusation he's making off assumption.

I apologize if I came across angry in any way in some of these posts...but, the whole situation is very frustrating to me. Especially when I'm as busy as I am...and something like this comes out of thin air. This forum tends to be one of my venting mechanisms, ha.

I will be working with the customer, and moving forward to rid of the situation. I honestly feel I'm being taken advantage of...but, it is what it is. It's part of owning a business unfortunately! I hate stories like this!
 
You said it was against your better judgement but later you say it's safe there. Seems like there's doubt how safe it is. Regardless of how happy he was with you work of he is upset about the chips then that will be all that he focuses on when he talks about the detail. He won't go around saying "he did a good job but..." he will actually say "I left my car with him and I got it back damaged". While you have loyal customers who know the type of work you do you have to ask yourself "will an unhappy customer damage future business I may get?" in the end what's a few dollars on a bottle of touch up paint and a little bit of time to fix the chips.

If he took you to court I think the burden of proof would be on you to prove your innocence. I'm no expert though but that's the way I would view every situation as a business owner.

I hope everything gets worked out smoothly and you don't have any issues. I really hate to see this happen to anyone here.

This forum needs a "like" button :props:

Any time I have a customer's car, I try to keep it indoors or out of sight as much as possible... ALWAYS garaged at night, and blocked in by one of my personal vehicles during the day if it has to sit outside for some reason.
 
This forum needs a "like" button :props:

Any time I have a customer's car, I try to keep it indoors or out of sight as much as possible... ALWAYS garaged at night, and blocked in by one of my personal vehicles during the day if it has to sit outside for some reason.

Regardless of what you may think Mr. Hahn...I run my business professionally, and have kept my customers vehicles safe for 10+ years. No vehicle has EVER been hit, or tampered with in any way in all my years of business outside my shop.

My shop is fenced in, no through traffic, and in a very safe area off the main road. No, I don't surround my customers vehicles with personal vehicles. When I've got 4-5 vehicles a day being serviced 6 days a week, and some being dropped off the day before, or even days before...they get lined up outside. That's just how it is, and it's never been an issue.

This customers vehicle was not hit. He just made a bad purchase, and is regretting it and looking for a way out.
 
Regardless of what you may think Mr. Hahn...I run my business professionally

Interesting. I don't recall saying you don't run your business professionally.

The only issue I have/had was your assessment that "IF something did happen...it happened outside my business, and it would have been a hit and run situation. Just cause the vehicle was near my shop, doesn't mean I'm responsible for damage done to the vehicle by others." You're the one who brought that up, not me.
 
Most all service departments at car dealers do a joint walk around the car and sign off on any existing defects before the customer can leave the car for service. You can't catch everything, correct, but you can eliminate a lot of hassle and shenanigans customers might pull, with a walk around. That's just good business .
 
You know there's a strange sense of irony here, as I can remain neutral to both sides of this debate, and tho I am more inclined to support Kris prevailing in this one... the sad part is; in this day and age, if someone gets a fat @$$ eating too many Big Mac's they can win a lawsuit! -If you shell out enough cash for a lawyer you can get away with murder. Choose to smoke cigarettes (*which I am guilty of) and then get sick... cha ching!

However, from an integral stand point, I think this epitomizes just how corrupt the system (*riddled with greed & ignorance) can be, and puts honest people at risk of unnecessary loses, promotes fear, and by way of another persons incompetence, willful ignorance, or worse; bad intent... allows good people to suffer without merit or provocation.

While I am a complete newbie to detailing and this forum, just reading a few of Kris's other posts influences me to believe; he is sincere about providing quality services and preserving the integrity of his shop and business, putting the customers needs first, if you will.

Be it that is merely a formed opinion...

What sucks is one negative review can often override 10 positive ones, as the psychology of most consumers is 'stained' by the inability to 'trust' do to the amount of 'bad experiences' they've had prior.

I was a swimming pool sub-contractor for years, and despite always going above and beyond my contractual agreements, the industry as a whole always had that one contractor who was a scam artist, and polluted the 'consumers' minds... effecting the honest contractors like a freaking plague! -That one news segment that exposed a 'crook' always "bred fear" into the minds of a large number of consumers, and I saw how 'scared' these people were they were gonna get ripped off too, even tho I worked for some of the best builders in the industry... honest builders that demanded quality workmanship, and prided themselves in integrity.

So, while I stand firm on my belief this was likely the vehicle owners pre-existing condition (*whether they knew it or not)... it opens ones eyes to just how easy crap like this can happen in this business or any business really.

If I ever reach the goal of having a shop, or perhaps 'when' is a better word... I will likely have a lawyer draw up a little legal bit (on the back of a signed work order) regarding cars that are left on (said property) are done so at the discretion of the vehicle owner, and unless the damages/impairments/imperfections are the direct result of accidental or negligent workmanship on behalf of (company name) - (Said company) assumes no responsibility in the event of vandalism, pre-existing conditions, damages, etc...Blah! Blah! Blah!

No matter how you look at it, as business owners you almost have to armor yourself up in a "bs resistant suit" daily just to survive the ignorant these days and stay afloat. If it's not the consumer wanting something for nothing, it's the new guy selling himself too cheap, only to hurt the entire industry. Until eventually it threatens both the consumer and the business owner. Heck, I love my country, but just look at today's economic reality...it shares a similar pattern on a much larger scale, no?

Ask yourself this one question; "How many people do you know love their job or even remotely like it?" - How was the service last time you ate at a fast food joint? -Better still, How about those lovely worker's so eager to please at the Department of Motor Vehicles?

Point being, we have people who have good jobs who don't wanna work. Then there's people lining up for jobs paying 1/2 of what they are truly worth because "The Majority" would rather turn a blind eye to the problem, as opposed to "Stand Up" to the minority causing a good portion of the problem.

*Not trying to be negative here, just calling it the way I see it.

Ultimately, my point is this, if ones perception is influenced in the aforethought that something will go wrong...it generally does. Hence, just as the customer above praised the work at first, what was the end result(?).. they found something to complain about and needed someone to blame.

End result... Honest businessman suffers insult, ends up doing more work (*for free), losses time & money, and faces the threat of that viral plague of having that one unsatisfied (corrupted) customer who has the potential to soil and pollute the minds of potential new clients.

"Give a hoot... don't pollute" - sorry just resonated by itself and needed saying I guess... but all kidding aside, it's tough to reach any true level of success with the current conditions, so I have a "NO Tolerance Policy" for stupidity.

IMHO this is just a minor reflection of a society that refuses to take responsibility, step up the integrity, acknowledge fault, and correct upon it. There are leaders and there are followers. Don't get me wrong, it could be an honest mistake made by the customer, as the dirt was hiding the existing damages... it lit the wick seeing the responses stating the obvious....fix it free, so you don't get sued, lose business, or upset the client. *Which sadly I have done myself in other businesses just to be the better man.

If only the majority did sit idle, waiting for the minority to "instruct them" with some common sense... maybe then we wouldn't be borrowing money, outsourcing work while unemployment is on the rise, and could afford to properly educate today's youth & society to demand the appropriate respect/wage in accordance to the workmanship performed.

Imagine that... if only it could be so easy, huh?

Instead, people line up to work for minimum wage, and from this depreciation of standards, it has tainted the businessman's perception to be weighed in profit over that of integrity... and "You have what we had here last week... which is the way he wants it, and I don't like it any more than you men!"

We create our own prisons!

- Sorry for the rant... just my .02, blame it on the coffee:righton:
 
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Its impossible to do a visable inspection when a car is dirty. Sure, you can do a walk around to make sure there are no hugh dents anywhere, but to pick out every knick and scratch is impossible. IMO your only setting yourself up if you practice this method

You have to do the best you can and then deal with what the situations that come up but a business has to factor this in their business model since it will happen. I am sure in court one could lose some of these even if pre-existing.
 
This is the reason you check a vechile in and make sure everything works and inspect the outside all down on a sheet of paper and call the customer when you find things wrong. ALWAYS do this or this will be the result.
 
Come on The cars got 130,000 miles on it I would think it would have a few places on the bumper by now.
 
Man... I know that will happen to me some day......
 
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