What is the average time it takes you guys to compound with a DA?

[wdmaccord]

That paint looks pretty good. If you can keep it that way, you shouldn't need more than a light polish 1-2 times per year. Something like M205 or Menz SF4000/4500.

4 pea sized drops of UC is getting you 10-20 passes? I know it is a wetter polish than some, but does it really stay wet for you that long with only 4 drops (what I am saying is 4 drops is probably about right)?

Just to be clear...I don't think there is a "6 pass rule"...how many passes you need to make should be determined by one (or multiple) test spot(s). For SMAT polishes I usually do 3-4 passes on my test spot and then check the work. Then do a couple more if needed and check again. When I use DAT, since it needs to be worked at least until the abrasives break down, I will usually do a minimum of 6 passes on my test spot(s)...4 & 2 as I mentioned in my earlier post.

 

[allenk4]

DAT stands for Diminishing Abrasive Technology (example, Menzerna). When using a polish like this the abrasive particles start off big and progressively diminish in size as you work the product. It is therefore a requirement that the polish is worked sufficiently to allow the abrasives to get small enough to leave a good finish

SMAT stands for Singular Micro Abrasive Technology (example Meguiars 105). This is the opposite of DAT in that the abrasive particles, for all intents and purposes, remain the same size throughout the buffing cycle. This would allow you, in theory, to stop cutting after 1 pass (if that's all the paint needed) and the polish would finish down the same as if you have made multiple passes.

Minor clarification

The individual abrasive particles remain the same size throughout the polishing cycle

At the beginning the particles are bound together in larger "clumps" that cut hard and then gradually break down into smaller "clump" and finally individual particles.

This breaking down allows the product to cut hard and finish out with less haze

 

[allenk4]

5-10lbs is not much pressure

The machine weighs about 5lbs by itself

I would increase the downward pressure until the BP stops spinning and then back off a touch

You should be able to compound that Viper in 3 hours if it is just swirls and a few rids

One thing that can speed up the process is identifying & knocking out the RIDS with a 3" pad and UC. That way you can do fewer passes on the rest of the vehicle that has lighter damage.

I am a big fan of the Meguiar's DA Microfiber cutting pads with D300 compound for this type of spot correction. They work great on my old PC.

 

[allenk4]

As wdmaccord said, you should not have to compound that car for a long time

Provided you are doing proper washes and you can keep your hands off of it. Often, beautiful cars like yours a get a lot of "Love Marks", from their owners constantly wiping them down

 

[cfiiman]

Thanks for the tips guys. Yes I do a proper wash, however.....I have been lazy and haven't changed my mitt for like 2 years, plus I use it to wash my daily drivers....DOH! This has put some good scratches in it, they are long and annoying, but pretty hard to see unless the light is just right. I just finished working about another hour, I'm almost done with the hood (about 2 hours total). The scratches are much less noticeable but there in the right light, honestly though I think I'd have to get more aggressive to get them out and I'm just going to stop here. Maybe I'll go back when I'm done and do the 3" thing you said, I'll have to buy a 3" backing plate and pads though. And yes there may be some love marks lol, although I try not to touch it unless it has been rinsless washed. I've changed my routine over to rinseless now with 2 dedicated mitts, and 2 dedicated buckets just for this car to try to prevent any future damage.

BTW, which compound is Megs Ultimate Compound? I'm assuming it is the one that breaks down and finishes nice correct? The paint looks almost good enough to not polish, but I'm going too anyway with the UP.

 

[allenk4]

"BTW, which compound is Megs Ultimate Compound? I'm assuming it is the one that breaks down and finishes nice correct?"

Meguiar's Ultimate Compound is SMAT and does not breakdown during the polishing cycle

It can finish very nicely on a lot of paint

I suspect you will want to follow it with Ultimate Polish on a softer polishing pad

Do a Test Spot. if the UP improves to look, in your eyes, continue with the rest of the car

 

[cfiiman]

Sorry for all the questions, but if it does not break down how does it finish nicely? Guess I'm confused, I thought that a polish that broke down smaller and smaller is what made a nice finish, I guess I have it backwards?

 

[cfiiman]

That paint looks pretty good. If you can keep it that way, you shouldn't need more than a light polish 1-2 times per year. Something like M205 or Menz SF4000/4500.

4 pea sized drops of UC is getting you 10-20 passes? I know it is a wetter polish than some, but does it really stay wet for you that long with only 4 drops (what I am saying is 4 drops is probably about right)?

Just to be clear...I don't think there is a "6 pass rule"...how many passes you need to make should be determined by one (or multiple) test spot(s). For SMAT polishes I usually do 3-4 passes on my test spot and then check the work. Then do a couple more if needed and check again. When I use DAT, since it needs to be worked at least until the abrasives break down, I will usually do a minimum of 6 passes on my test spot(s)...4 & 2 as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Oh and no, I think I must have exaggerated that. Or possible I was working a much smaller area, b/c today I couldn't get it to even go 6 passes it seems like without seeming like the compound was gone, but then I'd stop the polisher and right under the pad would be wet, so not sure what's going on other than it is hot as ballz lately. I probably didn't even need to compound honestly, just thought I'd try it to remove some of the bigger scratches, which I'm not doing, so it seems like a waste but I'll keep going...

 

[allenk4]

Sorry for all the questions, but if it does not break down how does it finish nicely? Guess I'm confused, I thought that a polish that broke down smaller and smaller is what made a nice finish, I guess I have it backwards?

The particles are so small that the defects they create do not bend light significantly enough for you to notice it with the naked eye

With DAT, you may be able to Compound & Polish with one product in say 8 passes

With SMAT, you may be able to Compound with one product for 4 passes and then use a Polish for 4 passes

Both can achieve the same final result, just different way of getting there


The process is about refining the defects/scratches in the paint

Sanding removes deep defects and leaves uniform shallower defects

Compounding follows to make these sanding induced scratches shallower and uniform

Polishing follows to refine the scratches left by polishing

"Jeweling" follows to further refine any defects that remain after polishing


If you are satisfied with the appearance after any of these steps you can stop


Just like a Surgeon...the diagnosis is the Hard part...the surgery is the Easy part

 

[wdmaccord]

The particles are so small that the defects they create do not bend light significantly enough for you to notice it with the naked eye

With DAT, you may be able to Compound & Polish with one product in say 8 passes

With SMAT, you may be able to Compound with one product for 4 passes and then use a Polish for 4 passes

Both can achieve the same final result, just different way of getting there


The process is about refining the defects/scratches in the paint

Sanding removes deep defects and leaves uniform shallower defects

Compounding follows to make these sanding induced scratches shallower and uniform

Polishing follows to refine the scratches left by polishing

"Jeweling" follows to further refine any defects that remain after polishing


If you are satisfied with the appearance after any of these steps you can stop


Just like a Surgeon...the diagnosis is the Hard part...the surgery is the Easy part

And unless you really want to jewel your paint, UC can finish out pretty nicely on it's own. I have used it many times and went straight to LSP...even on black paint. These have been soft paints, like Honda, so you may not get the same result on harder paints (not sure what the clear is like on Vipers).

 

[cfiiman]

And unless you really want to jewel your paint, UC can finish out pretty nicely on it's own. I have used it many times and went straight to LSP...even on black paint. These have been soft paints, like Honda, so you may not get the same result on harder paints (not sure what the clear is like on Vipers).

Unfortunately I don't either, but I'd say it is really hard b/c I can't get anything that is deeper than a swirl out it seems. I've found if I put the PC on speed 6 and push really hard and stay on one scratch for an extended period of time it diminishes some, but I don't like the feeling I get when doing that. I know a guy locally that is really good I may contact him and run it buy his place and see what he thinks.

 

[wdmaccord]

Unfortunately I don't either, but I'd say it is really hard b/c I can't get anything that is deeper than a swirl out it seems. I've found if I put the PC on speed 6 and push really hard and stay on one scratch for an extended period of time it diminishes some, but I don't like the feeling I get when doing that. I know a guy locally that is really good I may contact him and run it buy his place and see what he thinks.

Yah, definitely don't sit the machine on one spot. Even if you have a deeper scratch, keep to the alternating section passes maybe at least 6 inches on either side of the scratch. Maybe you need to try some MF pads...or just don't worry about some of the deeper scratches...if you keep chasing too far...well, you know.

 

[Mach1USMC]

I see, I'm probably going a little slow then, but I'll just keep plugging away at it, it is a big job, and I have to go back and do it all again with polish aaaaahhhhhhhhhh!

The PC is holding you back too. Try a more powerful machine for faster and better results.

 

[The Critic]

It really depends on the level of correction that you are trying to obtain.

On the low-end, 4-6 hours.

On the higher-end, 12-15 hours.

 

[allenk4]

It really depends on the level of correction that you are trying to obtain.

On the low-end, 4-6 hours.

On the higher-end, 12-15 hours.

For the Compounding Step?

I hope you are talking about total time start to LSP

 

[The Critic]

For the Compounding Step?

I hope you are talking about total time start to LSP

Nope.

If you are striving for 95%+ correction when viewed under all different types of lighting in a dark room, it is going to take you time to compound.

You are going to be working much smaller areas (try 16" sections), hitting certain areas multiple times, stopping to check your work and blowing out your pad. All of those things add up, and you can easily spend 12 hours on the compounding step.

 

[David Hayward]

I have found the first Gen vipers to be pretty hard clear. . My best results came from meguiars mf cutting pads with d300 and then I just did a light polish after with a white Lake country pad and menzerna sf4000.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

As requested here are a couple pics. It was hard to get one of the small scratches but I finally did, you can see it in the reflection of the overhead fluorescent light. The other one I'm trying to show how nice the finish is, it is just a few straight scratches here and there that are irritating but I can't seem to get them to diminish much:

That scratch is the text book definition of a RIDS or Random Isolated Deeper Scratch. I coined this acronym years ago and also wrote the definition.


RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...


Here's the pertinent portion of my article that explains it all.....

RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

RIDS
Random Isolated Deeper Scratches. These type of scratches come from normal wear & tear and there is no pattern to them. RIDS are like Tracers in that they are deeper scratches that show up after the shallow scratches have first been removed through a machine or hand buffing process, usually with a compound or paint cleaner. After the shallow swirls and scratches have been removed, any deeper scratches that remain will now show up like a Sore-Thumb to your eyes because there are no longer thousands of lighter, more shallow scratches camouflaging them.

I have a phone call to day with a high end detail shop asking how I remove RIDS and back in around 2002 I wrote another article showing how I removed them by hand using Postage Stamp size pieces of Nikken Finishing Papers and then simply buffed out my sanding marks using a rotary buffer. Here's that article,

RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

Seriously, for this kind of work a soft touch works best you this means your index finger.

Also, sanding wet is almost always better because water with a few drops of soap act as a lubricant to cushion the sanding action. It's easier to see what you're doing by sanding dry because the water film hides the scratch you're trying to sand out, so it's a trade-off.

Kind have to experiment and see which way works best for you but I'll tend to put up with sanding, wiping dry, inspecting even though it takes longer.

Also, sanding at an angle instead of in-line with the scratch.

Then down the road a few years this dramatic before and after was used on the label when SwirlX was introduced. Look at the picture above and then look at the car on the label.

Back then we didn't have the Griot's 3" Polisher with 3M Trizact #3000 and #5000 so I couldn't use them.

Now we have these tool... and if that was my car and I didn't want to see these annoying random, isolated deeper scratches I would either feather them out by hand using Nikken finishing papers like I show above or I would use a Griot's 3" dual action polisher as a machine sander and sand them out like we did on this old Ford....

Now this old Ford had Pigtails which are a curly scratch left by the guy that did the initial machine sanding but they are the same idea as a RIDS or even a Tracer.



1967 Mustang GTA Fastback - Pictures & Comments Thread



Pig Tails

Remember the pig tails in the picture posted previously?

Sore Thumb
After the entire car was polished using the Advanced Swirl Remover all of the shallow swirls and scratches had been removed however, deeper scratches like the pig tails still remained and now with no shallow scratches surrounding them to camouflage them they stood out like a sore thumb.

See my article on Random Isolated Deeper Scratches or RIDS for more information.

RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...


RIDS are different than Pig Tails and Tracers but the fact remains, when you machine polish a car you first remove all the shallow defects and this then reveals all the deeper defects no matter how they were inflicted.

More info on the different types of paint defects here,

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring




Machine Sanding = More Control + Cooler for the paint
Instead of getting more aggressive with a compound to remove the pig tails we chose to wet sand the paint using 3M Trizact #3000 Grit Sanding Discs on a Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher.





The Defelsko PosiTest DFT Combo Electronic Paint Thickness Gauge

First... this is a custom paint job so the clearcoat will tend to be thicker than a factory clearcoat. Still, I want to measure how thin or thick the total film-build is to give me a big picture idea for what I'm working on.

After taking a few measurements the readings were all fairly consistent so I made the decision with Bill's permission to go ahead and machine wet sand the pig tails and deeper straight line scratches out of the hood and roof.

Small Footprint + Super easy to control
Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher is my tool of choice for machine wetsanding isolated defects.

1/4" Interface Pad
Be sure to get an interface pad if you're going to do any machine wetsanding. It makes the sanding process less aggressive and the cushion provided by the foam core helps the sanding disc to conform to curves.

Mist a little water with a drop or two of soap mixed in for a lubricant...

Keep the sander moving and stop and inspect often so you only sand enough to level the surface and remove the defects.

Sanding out defects on the hood....

Tag Team
As I continued around the car sanding out pig tails and RIDS Robert followed me with the Flex PE14 Rotary Polisher, a wool cutting pad and Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover and removed the sanding marks.

On Autogeek.net

The Defelsko PosiTest DFT Combo Electronic Paint Thickness Gauge

#3000 3M Trizact Hookit 3 Inch Foam Discs

#5000 3M Trizact Hookit 3 Inch Foam Discs

3M Vinyl Tape 1/4 Inch - 06405

3M Vinyl Tape 1/8 Inch - 06404

Meguiars Unigrit 3 Inch Foam Interface Pad

Griot's Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher






Oh yeah.... the beauty shots with the pigtails and all the RIDS removed....

That's how I'd do it and that's how I do do it.

 

[cfiiman]

That's how I'd do it and that's how I do do it.

"You said do do" lol, sorry couldn't resist my potty humor.

Mike, as always thank you so much for your detailed post, you are awesome. Here is the thing, I'm scared to wetsand my car now after trying it the last time (see old post from a few weeks ago, I think you replied in there). Granted I started out with 1500 like a dummy, but I went back over it with 2500 (highest I could find locally) and I still didn't get them out 100%, but very very close, say 97%. I doubt anyone could tell where they are even trained, as it is hard for me to make out any defect and even then it doesn't look like scratches, more like a slight "wave" in the clear. I wish you were close and I could bring the car to you lol, but I'm going to have to live with them until I figure out how to do it on a less nice car, I'm sure my daily has 1000 I can practice on lol. I wish I had the confidence to sand them, as I think that is what it is going to take, I just don't after the last fiasco.

 

[cfiiman]

Ok, so just finished with the hood, whew! Like 3 hours total to compound and polish. I tried to take some pics.

Here is a before, the paint was not in bad shape but you can definitely see tons of tiny little scratches, you have to click on the top of the picture to make it bigger where you can really see them, this is on my cell phone taking a picture with the flash on:



Here is after:



I need to wash it now to get all the residual polish off, it is kind of "smeary" but the finish is amazing except for all the little "RIDS" Like Mike said, I really notice them now that it is near perfect.

Here is one where I tried to get the reflection of an LED light and the flash:



And here is the worst spot on the car, in a tight recess where the hood grills are. I did NOT put these there, it was the original owner, I swear it looks like he scrubbed in there with a steel brillo pad full or rocks, what were they thinking!? Not sure how i'm going even to attempt to get in there or do anything about them, I've always hated this damage just not sure how to get at it, and I know it will require wet sanding.