When to stop buffing - Or - How far should you go to remove swirls and scratches?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mike Phillips
  • Start date Start date
M

Mike Phillips

Guest
When to stop buffing - Or - How far should you go to remove swirls and scratches?



Will this buff out?

TooDeepToRemove_01.JPG



Nope... But close enough for a daily driver... with factory thin paint. Sure looks a lot better though...

TooDeepToRemove_02.JPG






Been meaning to write this article for some time, but things get in the way. So I'm going to pump it our right now and then I'll add some pictures as I process some taken last week on the 1950 Ford Kustom project.


So the question or dilemma is, when buffing out a car, be it your own or a customer's car, when do you say STOP. It's natural for both the car owner, do-it-yourselfer to aim for perfection and it's in the blood of any true detailer. It's the nature of the beast to try to get all the swirls and scratches, even water spots 100% completely out of the paint.

But it's not practical. And it's not practical for 2 reasons, each for one of the two categories of people I reference above. Let me wax-on...



If you're a do-it-yourselfer working on your own car.

Maybe you're reading this and you've stepped up your game, done your research, selected the polisher, pads and products after doing your research, and now you've done a Test Spot, or buffed out the hood or perhaps the entire car. Upon inspection... you can still see swirls, scratches and perhaps the imprint rings from water spots still visible in the paint.

You feel as though you did everything right. Primed your pad, ran the polisher at a medium to high speed, made a series of 6-8 section passes working an area about the size of a microfiber towel. And the polisher you bought, well everyone on Facebook, YouTube and/or some forum somewhere says it's the best thing since sliced bread.

So what do you do?

  1. Do you buff out the car again?
  2. Do you get a more aggressive pad?
  3. Maybe get a more aggressive compound?
  4. See out the advice of the guy down the street that details cars?



All of the above are viable options. And if you don't have any or at least much experience, this is the point where you experience frustration. And this is the point that without me physically being there to diagnose the situation, look at the paint, look at your tools, pads and product and watch you as you buff a section to observe your technique - well this is where I too hit a road bump. But read the next section and then I'll tell you what I do.




If you're a professional detailer working on your own car or a customer's car.

Like the guy above, you feel as though you did everything right. Yet there are still visible paint defects that bug you. You want perfection. You want 100% defect removal.


The above is the norm
The above two types of people and scenarios are common. I have over 600 how-to articles on this forum and over 200 product reviews. I'm sure amongst the 800 plus (as I type), info pieces do have more specific information on how to proceed and I'll share at least one in a follow-up post for the first category of people I'm referencing in this article. But for now, I'll share what I do.

I have confidence in myself and in my system


I've been doing this "detail thing" a long time. I am confident in my technique. I was in this industry when we had crap for compounds, polishes and cleaner/waxes or AIOs as some call them. I started when all we had were the rotary buffer, the Cyclo and the large traditional slow orbital buffers that cost about $35.00 at Sears or Wards.

Times have changed. Technology has improved. Tools are powerful and effective. There's a buffing pad for every specific job you need to tackle. And the abrasive technology "available" is top notch. There's still junk on the market, so do your research or attend on of my classes, I only use and show the good stuff.


Here's what I do....

I start with a Test Spot and dial in my "system". Your system is your tool, pad, product and process. For me, most of the time it's the BEAST, LC pads, one of many great compounds and a simple overlapping, crosshatch pattern of 8 section passes.

I do this Test Spot on EVERY car I detail. After doing this simple process I wipe off the residue and inspect the results. In most cases, I'm happy. And if I'm happy - I simply duplicate this process over the rest of the car. I start at the top and work my way down. I divide larger panels into smaller sections. I CHANGE OUT MY PADS OFTEN. And I always inpsect my towels before use.



Here's the deal....

Once I'm happy with the results from my Test Spot, including often times some of the deeper defects don't come out 100% - doesn't matter. That's my process. I repeat over the entire car and whateiver I get is what I get. Next? I move forward with the next step.

I don't fuss about removing each and every defect. If I did I would never get the car buffed out and I would never be happy.

If it's my own car - it's my daily driver and I'm wise enough to know the factory paint is thin and the car is going to see more wear-n-tear in the future and that means more defects. Because I know the paitn is going to get more dfects, I don't sweat the small stuff. If my car looks great from 10' away I'm happy - I'm certainly not insane nor going insane simply because each panel isn't perfect.


If it's a customer's car. The it comes down to what package did they purchase. If you don't understand the sentence before this one you're either new to professional detailing or you've been doing it all wrong. Every detailer and every detail shop should have at least 3 exterior packages. I do. And I match my package to the customer and their car. My three look like this,

Package 1
Package 2
Package 3

I don't get fancy. I don't call my packages Bronze Star, Silver Star and Gold Star. Nor go I call them 3-Star, 4-star or 5-star, or any other marketing glib. I just keep it simple.

Package 1 is your basic wash and one-step cleaner/wax. This is my favorite package because it's fast and simply. With this package I NEVER promise all the swirls and scratches will be removed. That's Package 3 and it cost more.

Package 2 is a one-step polish and ceramic coating. I like this package because I'm not compounding the car. With this package I NEVER promise all the swirls and scratches will be removed. That's Package 3 and it cost more.

Package 3 is a full blown correction that includes compounding the entire car followed by polishing, chemically stripping and then installing a ceramic coating. For most cars, this will remove about 95% percent of all swirls and scratches. Anything that remains is probably too deep to remove safely and I explain this to the customer.


The above is how I do it. I keep it real-world. I'm the guy that wrote this article,

Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips


I teach these concepts to others in my classes. And I don't drive myself nuts trying to remove each and every scratch - I trust myself, my skills and my "system".



Hope this helps.... and click the link above and look at the pictures. Keep it real man. Paint is thin. Get the paint on your car good, or REALLY GOOD - but don't go insane chasing perfection. One of these days you'll be buffing around a clearcoated car and you'll stop buffing to wipe off residue and in the process you'll see the color of the basecoat on the face of the buffing pad on your polisher. That's a bad sign. Here's what I say about this when it happens,

Words cannot describe the heart-sinking feeling that overcomes you when you discover you have buffed through the paint - Mike Phillips





What does it look like when you buff through the clear layer of paint?


I have an article on that.... :bolt:


What it looks like when you buff through the clearcoat - Burn Through - Strike Through - Mike Phillips


Ouch_Burn_Through_01.jpg



Ouch_Burn_Through_02.jpg




It's never fun telling anyone that "yes" that looks like you've buffed through or burned-through the clearcoat and exposed the basecoat.

It's even less fun when you tell them the only way to fix it is to re-paint the panel or the affected area.







Keep it real man....


:)
 
words of wisdom.

I hope many new guys to "detailing" find this article and take note. Even some seasoned guys can benefit from it.
 
The part about "Looking good from 10' away" has always been my rule.

As I have posted before: "Could a pro with a swirl finder light walk up and find a bunch of imperfections on my truck? Yup, I am sure of it". And, I don't care.

Like you said, Mike: If my work makes me happy, then that's all that matters.
 
words of wisdom.

I hope many new guys to "detailing" find this article and take note. Even some seasoned guys can benefit from it.

I agree.

I meet a lot of detailers, both enthusiast and pros alike and a common theme among them is their obsession for removing every single scratch out of their car's paint.

When we talk about this obsession I point out the points I shared above and for the most part, everyone I talk to agrees, they're going overboard trying to remove every swirl and scratch. Sometimes a person simply needs another person to bring things back into real-world context.



The part about "Looking good from 10' away" has always been my rule.

Anyone that's ever taken one of my classes has heard me use the term,

Big Picture Detailing

That is focus on the big picture, not the little things.


As I have posted before: "Could a pro with a swirl finder light walk up and find a bunch of imperfections on my truck? Yup, I am sure of it". And, I don't care.

Like you said, Mike: If my work makes me happy, then that's all that matters.

Totally agree Paul. Especially if the car in question is in fact a daily driver.

More info...




Related articles on this topic,

Considerations for removing paint defects - the BIG PICTURE

Topical Defects vs Sub-Surface Defects - Living life on the edge of the razor blade

When to stop buffing - Or - How far should you go to remove swirls and scratches?

What it means to remove a scratch out of anything...



And avoiding swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation

Things you need to wash a ceramic coated car by Mike Phillips

When it comes down to maintaining a scratch and swirl free finish - it all comes down to how you touch the paint - Mike Phillips

How to safely wash a ceramic coated car by Mike Phillips - Traditional Hose & Bucket Approach

How, why & when to inspect your microfiber towels when detailing cars




:)
 
Package 2 is a one-step polish and ceramic coating. I like this package because I'm not compounding the car. With this package I NEVER promise all the swirls and scratches will be removed. That's Package 3 and it cost more.


What polish and ceramic coating product in package 2 do you use? Been eyeballing a couple.


:)
 
What polish and ceramic coating product in package 2 do you use? Been eyeballing a couple.


The polish is usually Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover, this is a medium cut polish. Removes all but the deep stuff. Sometimes I use SONAX EX 04-06 and even SONAX Perfect Finish.

For coatings I always use something I also either use myself or show in my classes.

BLACKFIRE
GYEON
GTechniq
CarPro
Pinnacle Black Label

What I recommend to others and practice myself is to go with an established brand. There are so many NEW coatings coming onto the market so fast. Choose something new if you like that's your prerogative but to keep things fool-proof, go with an established brand. Branch out later.


:)
 
The polish is usually Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover, this is a medium cut polish. Removes all but the deep stuff. Sometimes I use SONAX EX 04-06 and even SONAX Perfect Finish.

For coatings I always use something I also either use myself or show in my classes.

BLACKFIRE
GYEON
GTechniq
CarPro
Pinnacle Black Label

What I recommend to others and practice myself is to go with an established brand. There are so many NEW coatings coming onto the market so fast. Choose something new if you like that's your prerogative but to keep things fool-proof, go with an established brand. Branch out later.


:)

Thanks, I thought you were using a polish that contained the ceramic in it also because you dont use a ceramic coating in your #3 package.
 
This article is a great perspective for a relative newbie like myself.

We (newbies) can get overwhelmed with all the options for product, all the opinions we hear and read, and need to sometimes reel it back to the KISS principle.

Thanks for writing it Mike.
 
When to stop buffing - Or - How far should you go to remove swirls and scratches?


Words cannot describe the heart-sinking feeling that overcomes you when you discover you have buffed through the paint - Mike Phillips


:)

Another great article Mike! Luckily for me the only time I did this was on my own car - tried to remove a scratch quickly, with poor lighting. Moved from foam pads to wet sanding, then saw the silver paint on the pads during the clean up. doh!
 
I have a very thin area on the hood of my Cadillac that I dare not try to correct any further!
 
Thanks, I thought you were using a polish that contained the ceramic in it also because you dont use a ceramic coating in your #3 package.

Sorry, was typing fast, think I mentioned I typed out the article in 25 minutes or less. You can't even find an article like this typed out on a Facebook group. :laughing:


When I described Package 3 that was focused on the correction aspect as the context of this article is about chasing after swirls and scratches. After you posted this, I added this to the first sentence in the description of Package 3


followed by polishing, chemically stripping and then installing a ceramic coating.


On the topic of using a polish that contains ceramic in it, currently these are more or less known as

Primers


The idea being for a product that,

  1. Removes fine defects - in other words is an actual fine cut or ultra fine cut polish.
  2. Somehow uses ingredients that will NOT affect the bonding of a true ceramic coating.
  3. Also LEAVES BEHIND ceramic coating as a part of the application process.



That's a lot to ask from a single product, kind of like a traditional cleaner/wax or cleaner/sealant or AIO.

I have tried a number of these that are on the market but have not entirely made the switch yet to use one of these as my last step polishing product before installing a coating. I'm looking forward to the future however as I expect to see the market move this direction.

AND - this is a good thing because in my experience and opinion, I don't think most people, or at least the average person possess either the skills or enough microfiber towels that are in perfect condition to chemically strip paint. I probably have more factual information written on the process of chemically stripping paint than anyone breathing. It's not addressed in detail that I know of by all the experts and gurus, at least not like I address it.

Simple point being, panel wipes or any solvent that is able to dissolve polishing oils and other substances is also NOT a great lubricant. Thus the act of chemically stripping paint is the act of marring paint. You might not see it on white or light colors but you can see it on black. And common sense states that if it's happening to black paint it's happening to all paint it's just the human eyeballs cannot easily see marring on light colors. Add to this most do-it-yourselfgers DON'T own great hand held lights so they can't inspect their work properly anyways. Coatings are great but they are also a can of worms and this is why myself and any other self-respecting detailer charges more to "install" them. It's much easier to apply a coat of wax or sealant or like in my Package 1 - simply use a great AIO like BLACKFIRE One Step.

Make sense?

Great line of questions by the way, kind of off topic from the point of this article but that's okay, all discussion that helps others is good discussion.


:)
 
sorry I didnt make myself more clear by quoting

I meant after you realize that you have the paint on the pad and realize that you removed all the clear in that area and also have removed some of the base?
 
sorry I didnt make myself more clear by quoting

I meant after you realize that you have the paint on the pad and realize that you removed all the clear in that area and also have removed some of the base?


What you do then or next is probably cry a little. :(


The only honest repair is to repaint the area or repaint the panel.


And it is for this type of horrible experience that most people, especially if working on a daily driver, shouldn't try to remove each and every single scratch out of the paint.


I've buffed through, or "burned through" paint before, both single stage and basecoat/clearcoat paint systems. I've seen others do it and cannot count how many times someone has shared this experience on this forum and elsewhere.

It's really not a fun experience. And then in hindsight, you wish you would have simply STOPPED and called it good or good enough. Learn to live with a few minor imperfections here and there.


Good question.


:dblthumb2:
 
Super helpful advice, especially for the newcomers and the chronically disappointed. Relentless (and amatuerish) pursuit of the perfect detail usually ends in anger and frustration.

Over time one acquires a certain wisdom and appreciation that detailing is more art than science, and an understanding that every detail must be approached with realistic expectations.

The question you posited in this thread: when to stop buffing, is a deeply philosophical one.

Acceptance of what is possible, or realistic, is the key to detailing bliss.

One factor not mentioned in your post is whether the project is a daily driver or garage queen.

For the former there should be less interest in perfection since swirls and scratches are inevitable. I only do my own car. What isn't remedied today can always be tackled in the next round. In a weird way I actually look forward to this.


As they say, a good detail is its own reward.


:)
 
Super helpful advice, especially for the newcomers and the chronically disappointed.

Relentless (and amatuerish) pursuit of the perfect detail usually ends in anger and frustration.


Thank you.

One thing I have is empathy.

I've been in the shoes of everyone that has taken up car detailing as a hobby or a profession.



:)
 
:updated:


I was looking for this article, (the one I'm typing in), by typing the below into Skynet


when to stop buffing mike phillips


And the first article to pull up was this article from 2012 - that I forgot I wrote...

How do you know when to stop buffing?


In the older article, I included the Test Spot aspect, that is, before buffing out the entire car, do your test spot and dial-in a process that you're happy with. This would include removing 100% of the defects OR possibly improving the paint but NOT removing 100% of the defects.

Point being, you should figure out how far you will go when doing the test spot whether it's 100% defect removal or somewhere close to 100% defect removal.



:)
 
Back
Top