Why is everyone afraid of rotary polishers? And what's this about not finishing properly?

[davey g-force]

You have holograms.

 

[VP Mark]

You have holograms.

?? I did not see any obvious holograms in the pic.

 

[davey g-force]

?? I did not see any obvious holograms in the pic.

I was looking at the pics from my iPhone. Looking again now on my PC and (in the first pic) it looks like there are a few swirls at least.

 

[RaskyR1]

With that pad, compound, and speed, you will have holograms. Give it a month, few washes, and they should be pretty visible in the sun.

 

[Kamakaz1961]

It's not that I am afraid of rotary polishers; my reasoning is that I can work on a DA so well why change. I use the Flex 3401 and PC7424 XP very effectively. I do have the Flex PE-8 and you are correct....if you use the machine properly; it is possible you could have no holograms.

Now am I a master at a rotary...no way far from it. I still need to get used to the walking and grabbing and I still have to improve my technique.

Until then I am satisfied with my DA's and looks like I will be for quite a long time.

I am not afraid, however, based on my minimal experience with the PE-8, I have learned to respect the rotary....not fear it.

 

[TheDetailGeeks]

With that pad, compound, and speed, you will have holograms. Give it a month, few washes, and they should be pretty visible in the sun.

What's a better speed with the pad and product combo I'm using?

This guy recommends 1800-1900 RPM, is the type of polish and pad he's using significantly different than the combo I'm using? I feel like I'm having to re-learn everything I've been taught when all I used was a DA!

http://youtu.be/CI78DjvsLwA?t=8m50s

 

[RaskyR1]

What's a better speed with the pad and product combo I'm using?

This guy recommends 1800-1900 RPM, is the type of polish and pad he's using significantly different than the combo I'm using? I feel like I'm having to re-learn everything I've been taught when all I used was a DA!

http://youtu.be/CI78DjvsLwA?t=8m50s

With today's newer abrasives and pads I typically run my rotary between 1200-1800 depending on what I'm doing, but I may make a final pass or two with an even slower speed, usually just on finishing steps though.

With your initial process the fact that you were using a cutting pad and a compound is probably the biggest factor, but speed will have an effect too. BMW's do tend to have harder paint so your hologramsprobably wouldn't be as bad as it would on a softer paint, but they will be there. Following up with a finishing polish and less aggressive pad is a must IMO. If you had started with wool pad and a more agressive compound you would typically need at lest 2 more refining steps to finish hologram free, even more on some paints.

No reason to be afraid of the rotary though, but caution does need to be taken and it will take some time to master. Biggest piece of advice I can give is not to make to big of a jump in aggressiveness between steps. Many people think their work is hologram free, which is probably how it looks when it leaves their shop most the time, but when the swelling goes down and polishing oils wear off, the truth is relieved. I was humbled myself several years ago, back when I thought I was "the man". Once I started browsing forums and reading discussions from guys like Mike Phillips I began realizing I was missing the ever so important intermediate steps. The same applies for DA's too! I've had many cars come in with DA haze on them from a previous detailers.


Cheers,
Rasky

 

[FUNX650]

Once upon a time...

...there were yet any ROs/DAs "invented"
for use in the automotive sector.

Yes...afraid I can still remember this time in history.
Now that's scary!!


Bob

 

[ryandamartini]

I have gone through the entire cycle. When I got my PC, you couldn't even get the 7424 "buffer", you got the 7336 sander from lowes and went to AG to get the buffing backingplate and pads! I used it for years and after just wrecking my arms and back for a few years went to the FLEX...rotary.

Within a couple days/ week of practicing, watching youtube videos and really just applying some common sense, I had little issues with holograms. Some paints (honda super soft) I could never finish out perfect on. I would jewel it with the PC and you're right, it does give more of a gloss to me.

I think anti rotary movement comes from:
Companies finding reasons to dissuade you from getting a rotary by justifying inferior results with how safe it is for paint.

Appealing to the hobbyist who doesn't want the risk but wants a degree more of a shine on their vehicle.

Newer detailers who want to offer polishing but again without the experience needed or risk to polish cars all day, get tired and burn on a b pillar or something.

And finally the real one that stings people is that it is a skill check. If you do not wash, decontaminate, and prepare the surface properly, you will not have a good time. Same goes with your pads. If you do not handle them properly, clean them during use, store correctly, etc, you will swirl and marr the hell out of your paint.

In my opinion doing it on and off for ####, 10 years now since I was 15, now 26, my rotary is the bees knees. With a properly prepped surface and in the right environmental conditions, it just wipes away defects and really leaves a luster.

With that said, I do not feel like fighting it or if its a long day and I don't want to risk slipping up, I pull out the Cyclo which in my opinion is the best DA polisher out. It is powerful and severely underrated on the forums online.

My .02 as I've seen many online stressing about polishers for months, take a chance on the rotary, then they get busy.... making money.

 

[RPM_BR]

My humble opinion is that you are not seeing swirls because BMW are usually hard paints, maybe with the exception of black, which is softer.
I believe is somewhat hidden there.
Regarding speed, I start with 2 passes of 600, then increase to 900 or 1000 two passes, and then 600 again. I always go up and down regarding speed, most times 4 passes in the same step, and other two passes with a cleaned pad. Almost all the time I went over 1200 I got swirls, so I always finish it up with 600. But it is me, my style, I don't really know if this info really proceeds. I use a PE14.
I had a case of a black Mercedes which it seemed really good after the rotary, no visible swirls, but in respect for the customer's money and to be on the safe side I finished with my 3401 with 3000.

 

[Lowejackson]

I guess the main thing is you are happy with the results.

One of the really nice things about polishes like the Megs is you can change the amount of cut by altering the speed. Slowing the speed down towards the minimum can make a big difference to the overall gloss. Just to echo some of the above points, 2000rpm is, thesedays, considered very fast, I tend to work between 900 and 1500 with M101

 

[TundraPower]

"hullaballoo"? Wow.

 

[Vegas Transplant]

Did I just get lucky, or am I missing something here?

The latter, of course.

You have holograms.

+1.

 

[Garyhw48]

What's a better speed with the pad and product combo I'm using?

This guy recommends 1800-1900 RPM, is the type of polish and pad he's using significantly different than the combo I'm using? I feel like I'm having to re-learn everything I've been taught when all I used was a DA!

http://youtu.be/CI78DjvsLwA?t=8m50s

You are not crazy or missing anything.

Years ago it was impossible but now with the latest pads and polishes it is very doable.

I have three rotaries and a 3401. The CCS pads are my favorite on the rotaries and I get excellent results with Megs, Menzerna, and Wolfgang compounds and polishes.

I would recommend slowing down to between 600 and 1200 rpm. The slower speed that gives correction is best. I usually don't get over 1000 and try to stay at around 600. Keep the pads lubricated well.

Watch this video of Mike Phillips jeweling with a PE14.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4PQfiXJLIc

 

[Vegas Transplant]

Congrats on the low buget find. Every since forum member Danube posted that green machine I've wanted one. Simply to add to the tool box. I still want one. But they are hard to find.

The above all said, if there are holograms, as long as you don't see them and as long as you maintain the paint with a wax, sealant or coating, then the point is moot.

At some point customers move on. But you still own the work. I made good money fixing other peoples boo-boos. But also, I made good money being that guy. I came to AGO to step up my game. There is much knowledge and experience here. I am not above being humble anymore. Never again will I be THAT guy.

 

[Paul A.]

DetailGeek, you're story is almost identical to mine! Bought a PC7336 many years ago and still have and use it. Having heard of the effectiveness of rotaries, i then bought a Hitachi and still have and use that too. I was happy i did and it did yield the time savings for correction i was hoping for. Yes, they are somewhat tricky to first get used to and handle properly but it is still my go to tool for correction.

I then became somewhat concerned a few years ago when i read Mike P say you can't get a hologram free finish with a rotary...so i set out to prove that...that is, to either prove it or dispel it. My subject over the years has been my 2007 Black BMW 335i. My final analysis today? Yes, i can and i use the techniques as shown in the Mike P video above i.e. Very slow speeds and a black or blue LC pad with a super fine polish.

I still love my Hitachi and it is on it's second set of brushes but still rockin and rollin.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I then became somewhat concerned a few years ago when i read Mike P say you can't get a hologram free finish with a rotary...

I don't think I've ever said that in fact I've said it can be done I just don't believe it can be done on every paint system in the world.



Paints are different and some polish easier than others. And to clarify, a paint system can either be OEM that is sprayed at the factory. (how many car manufacturers are their in the world), or a paint system can be specific to the refinishing industry, that's the guys at your local body shop and custom paint shop spraying paint.

Not only are there different paint manufactures but the "technology" is continually changing so you never know what you're working on from year to year and that's what I mean by "paint systems". What works on one paint system might not work on a different paint system.

If you can find a thread on any forum where I've said you can't get a 100% hologram free finish on every paint system with rotary please share the link.

If you read this article on this topic, not scan the article but READ the article you'll see exactly what I say.

Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer



You need to be very careful on a discussion forum with each word your write because words matter. I know I'm very careful.






I've also posted pictures of cars that either I've buffed out or "we've" buffed out here at Autogeek using ONLY rotary buffers.


If you read through this thread take note, I only used a rotary buffer on this car.


Bumblebee - Testing out the NEW DeWALT DWP849X

If you read through these two write-ups only rotary buffers were used...


1987 Corvette Show Car Makeover - SONAX Showcase

1990 Corvette - Extreme Makeover Pictures & Process

And I share tips on jewelling, more tips than I think I've ever seen anywhere on the Internet. I see LOTS of talk but nothing from anyone in writing.


Jeweling
Next we continued to use the same polish but switched over to 5.5" Gold Jewelling Pads

Tips on how to jewel paint using a rotary buffer
Before starting, we went over a few tips and techniques for how to jewel paint when using a rotary buffer.

Less than the weight of the machine
This is showing that we're actually using a little bit less than the weight of the machine for the last few passes for this section. The idea being that polishing paint is an art form, not a grinding process. As the pad becomes wet with product it will easily compress with just the weight of the tool. For your last few passes you want light pressure via the pad contact, now heavy pressure and to get light contact you need to watch and prevent pad compression.

And as my norm... all my write-ups are fully documented with pictures and words, much more so than most write-ups you find anywhere. (and my pictures never disappear)



I'm also the guy that always posts that technology has improved more and faster than I've ever seen in my 28 years of working professionally in this industry.

That means it's easier now than ever to get great results with any tool due to improved abrasive technology and pad technology.


:dunno:

 

[davey g-force]

Nice post Mike :xyxthumbs:

 

[Kamakaz1961]

Thank you Mike for your explanation. As I said before in a previous post; I am not afraid of using a Rotary, I CHOOSE NOT TO as I (IMO at least) do nearly perfect correcting/polishing with my Flex 3401 and PC7424 XP. I do have the new Flex PE-8 and I am learning how to use a rotary.

I do like the PE-8 and I feel it has its purpose. 1 thing for sure is that the PE-8 has not encouraged me to move to a rotary.

What it has done is make it a compliment to my Machine arsenal. So for the near and long term, I will stick with what I have now; Flex 3401, Flex PE-8 Kompakt and PC 7424 XP all with different backing plates and different size pads.


Thank you for your Post.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

The thing is... it's easier to simply do the last machine polishing step with ANY dual action polisher and avoid any "potential" hassle of having holograms come back to haunt you down the road.


One thing I notice about this topic is it seems to get a few people all emotional.