Why Paint Cleaners are Important

[Flannigan]

Agree on needing clean paint for a strong base to build from, but Werkstatt Prime Strong is an AIO, not just a paint cleaner. I usually use an AIO for my base, then top with a Collinite. I think either way, you are accomplishing the same thing. If you are planning on two coats for protection, use of an AIO can actually save you time, as it is one coat by itself.

It does have a little bit of protection in it, but otherwise it's just chemical cleaners, as in it's not a polish with normal abrasives.

 

[RPPM]

I believe the Prime Strong actually does contain some minor polishing capabilities by itself. The regular Prime is just the more modern version of Klasse AIO, meaning just chemical cleaners without any correcting capability on it's own.

 

[Flannigan]

I believe the Prime Strong actually does contain some minor polishing capabilities by itself. The regular Prime is just the more modern version of Klasse AIO, meaning just chemical cleaners without any correcting capability on it's own.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't see that listed on their site, but ill take your word for it

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

 

[RPPM]

Don't mean to be argumentative, and as I originally stated, I think you are spot on, it is important to clean the paint for best results.

 

[FUNX650]

When coupled with a polishing pad, any sort of lubricant can be capable of correction. I have in the past used distilled water and a finishing pad to get the softest of the soft paint to finish out flawlessly.

This may actually affect the sales of some very, very, popular "finishing polishes".
(If pre-wax cleaners decreased my profit margin over and above those of my finishing poishes, I would be really ticked! )

.....a couple people in this thread are being difficult for no reason.

^^^I do hope you're deeming me to be one of the above: "couple people"^^^

Because...IMO...It allows me to inquire:
-If the AGO Forum is considered to be a bona fide: Discussion Forum...
Then:
-Why does it seem that, on occasion, you are adverse to discussion?...[Being difficult, as it were...IMO]?
-Or, is it just, that how it seems to me?




Bob

 

[swanicyouth]

I read on a British website that the P21S does have kaolin clay in it. But I don't see why that changes the OP's original point. So can we say, paint cleaners can work as a fine polish with the right pad to correct minor imperfections, paint cleaners may contain glazes to hide minor imperfections, and paint cleaners remove old wax and sealant in the process. They have multiple uses and benefits, one of the most important to me is the ability to remove old wax with as little abrasion or clear coat removal as possible; when a finishing polish isn't required.

 

[Bigbull2984]

Very interested in trying a paint cleaner now. Any suggestions on what to use before applying Blackfire Total Polish and Seal or BFWD AFPP.
I have a PC 7424xp, but need to order more pads too.

So Flannigan, that white pad you used on that white car, was that after the car was washed and wax???

 

[ryanmcg1]

I used some pinnacle paint cleaning lotion on a microfiber applicator buy hand with light pressure. Car wasn't really in need of clay at the time so I figured I try the sample I got and it made my black just look cleaner and I feel gave it more depth I like it. Think I will definitely buy some more and use it inbetween claying on my 2 vehicles takes about the same time as claying maybe I will give it a try on a black flat pad or crimson pad.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I am being VERY clear about what is going on. You posted info from two products that weren't used here. Please go research P21s and then come back and tell me if it is a glaze or a pure cleaner. I'm not pulling one over here, just giving information that is usually looked over on this forum.

I spent 10,000 posts worth of time on another forum, and my recollection is that the consensus there was that P21S GEP was an inappropriate prep for sealants because of it's "glaziness". But perhaps my recollection is wrong.

 

[swanicyouth]

Does this help? (from Polished Bliss):


R222 (P21S)Gloss Enhancing Paintwork Cleanser is a non-abrasive chemical polish and glaze that does away with the need for separate decontamination and glazing steps. It is designed to remove bonded surface contaminants (such as industrial fallout and bug splatter) and dramatically enhance gloss in order to create the illusion that paint is dripping wet ahead of an application of premium wax protection. During the application process, advanced chemical cleaning agents strip away any residual grime and old layers of sealant or wax protection, while kaolin clay particles and glazing oils visually reduce the extent of wash marring and minor swirl marks by filling such defects and robbing sunlight of sharp edges off of which to reflect.

 

[TimmyG]

I started the "Discuss Pinnacle Paintwork Cleanser" thread a week or so ago just to inquire about these paint cleansing products. It is my opinion that so many of us focus on the all of the other aspects of paint correction that often times, a paint cleanser can be overlooked. I know I have been guilty of that seeing how that Land Rover picture in the op turned out. I honestly would've been more likely to tackle that paint with a white flat pad and m205 before I'd consider a paint cleanser. I've added the P21s cleanser to my purchase list, but for me, it's all about figuring out when I can utilize it. Great thread so far and tons of good information.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Here is a post in another thread on another forum started by a VERY experienced detailer. Please see another reason why paint cleaners are important.

Paintwork cleansers are typically used to clean the paint well, thus promoting a better bond between the paint and your LSP. This in turn will improve the durability of your LSP.

This is what I termed,

Synergistic Chemical Compatibility as discussed in this thread,

Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

Specifically note the portion in blue text...

So unless a manufacturer specifically states or recommends that an automotive paint finish must be stripped clean for their wax or paint sealant to properly bond or adhere, then I think it's safe to say that the chemist behind the brand has created their wax and paint sealant formulas to use the same miscible oils, (or other miscible substances), in their surface prep products to aid in the bonding or adhering of the protection ingredients used in their waxes and/or paint sealants to paint.

This would be called, Synergistic Chemical Compatibility.


It's entirely possible that a lot of popular waxes and paint sealants on the market will bond or adhere to paint correctly after the paint has been prepped using compounds, polishes and paint cleaners outside the brand of the waxes or paint sealants being applied. There's no easy way of knowing or testing, but in my opinion, I would think the chances for this type of chemical compatibility to be more likely than less likely as there is probably some common chemistry involved in surface prep products and protection products that overlaps among different polish and wax companies.

Don't forget their are some that believe you must chemically strip ANY paint cleaner, polish or glazes before applying any type of wax, paint sealant or coating in order for the protection ingredients to bond. That line of thinking is completely opposite of what 911fanatic wrote above, this part...

Paintwork cleansers are typically used to clean the paint well, thus promoting a better bond between the paint and your LSP.

This in turn will improve the durability of your LSP.

What 911fanatic is saying is what has been practiced for decades, actually ever since car waxes and paint cleaners were invented. It was only till Zaino appeared and recommended that paint needed to be stripped before application of their paint sealants that the Tipping Point was reached via discussion forums that started the entire wipe your paint down with IPA craze started. I documented this in 2003 in a 66 page report I wrote called "The Zaino Case Study".

I've seen it all. We've gone from one side of the spectrum to the other side of the spectrum and now back to the original side of the spectrum.

Kind of like how in the old days if you applied too much wax you risked getting a wax build-up which is seen as a negative and now days that thinking as been turned upside down and a wax build-up is called layering.


:laughing:

I have a Ford Focus in my shop that was in for a wash and wax, but after washing the paint still looked a little dull. Using my PC and a white pad, I applied some Werkstat Prime Strong. It was applied at speed 3, one panel at a time and then wiped down.

For illustrative purposes, I used one pad for the entire car. Usually I would use 2 or 3 if the paint was this dirty.

Hey I made the same point here, about how you can get the "surface" clean but there's still dirt and contaminants below the surface, check this out from this thread,

1954 Ford F-100 - Extreme Makeover - Process and products used

Note we wiped the car clean and the CLAYED the paint, this would have EFFECTIVELY removed pretty much ANY topical dirt or contamination.

The we buffed the paint using a white colored polish using white colored pads but look at the color of the pad after buffing paint. Where did the dirt come from?

That's my hand in the picture, see? I removed all the "topical" dirt and contaminants AFTER wiping the paint clean. (We don't wash classics, street rods or antiques, you would introduce water to where you cannot dry and cause rust)

This truck was re-painted approximately one year ago but just from exposure to the outdoors has made the paint vulnerable to air-borne contaminants...

This shot was taken with my trusty, dusty Canon Rebel with the flash on after claying the roof...

Now if all the topical dirt has been removed... how did the pad on the right in the pictures below get so dirty?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1290/54Ford83.jpg[/IMG]


Remember how dirty the clay was after claying just one half of the roof? Clay remove ABOVE surface bonded contaminants but it doesn't remove embedded staining of the paint. You can see abrading the paint with a light polish and a microfiber pad has removed the staining effect and restored a very bright and shiny finish.

And here's me doing the same thing only on a different area of the truck... note the dirt coming off the clear coated yellow paint staining the white pad brownish/grayish

Me using the Griot's Garage 6" Random Orbital Polisher

As you use a microfiber pad the fibers will lay down flat at become matted with both spent product and the paint you're removing anytime you're abrading the paint. You can also see a grayish color on the pad, this is staining of the paint caused by road grime and air-borne pollution. Staining is both topical and to some degree embeds into the paint so when you do any type of compounding or polishing you remove the staining and restore a more clear and brighter finish as you can see as we buff out this truck

To clean the microfiber pads we use a Pad Conditioning Brush with the tool OFF and simply hold the pad from spinning with the hand that's holding the polisher. I cover all the ways to clean both foam pads and fiber pads starting on page 76 of my book.

Here you can see the fibers have bee fluffed up and this pad is ready to go back to work...

The BIG PICTURE is and the point that Dave was making was that paint cleaners are in fact important to key word, ENSURE the paint is clean and perfectly prepared to accept the wax.

I don't care to argue the minor points between paint cleaners, pre-wax cleaners, AIO's Cleaner/Waxes, or Fine Cut or Ultra Fine Cut Polishes because I've always said,

"Find something you like and use it often"


As long as you're getting the paint clean and you're happy that's all that's really important and in the case above... Glen was very happy that we got the paint on his show truck sparkling clean. Plus, by hanging out at Autogeek, he learned how to machine polish his own paint...

Glen
Here's Glen using a Meguiar's G110v2 to remove the swirls out of the tailgate. This is the first time Glen has ever used a machine to polish paint and he did a superb job!

This is what cleaned, polished and sealed paint looks like....

And about the point made by 911fanatic, he did a great job of explaining how paint can need further cleaning with the dramatic after pictures Dave shared and that's what makes a detailing discussion forum helpful, sharing accurate information that helps others to understand a process so they can get the best results possible for their efforts.


And I'll stick to my original post to this thread...

Very nice article with excellent pictures that really drive home your points.

I'd say a majority of the time everyone gets all caught up in creating swirl free flawless finishes and there's nothing wrong with that but sometimes the right procedures for some cars and some people would be to keep it simple and simply use a paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner.


Nice job Dave, thanks for taking the time to share this...

:dblthumb2:

 

[TimmyG]

I won't quote Mike's thorough post, but would like to say thank you for that information. Very informative post by the OP and many others as well. I'm going to be giving the P21s enhancer a try, then try to master the art of knowing when to utilize it!

 

[TRex99]

Years ago (back in the early 80's) I worked in a paint shop. We basically had 3M and Megs products--rubbing compounds, assorted polishes and waxes--we sure didn't have the myriad of products available today. I'm sure Mike Phillips can relate.
Anyway, polish was always used after compound to actually polish a painted surface, either fresh or not, to a high gloss, followed by a wax to protect and preserve that finish. That's what I learned and for 30 years I believed that to be the proper method.
So, when I got on AGO and started reading about guys wiping down a polished surface with IPA prior to their LSP, or skipping a polish/cleaning step after compounding, to be honest I was a little dumbfounded. I always understood that the oils in polish were meant to nourish the paint while wax sealed those oils in and maintained the polished finish. IPA before the LSP just serves to dry out the paint eventually leading to a dull finish.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what learned so many years ago, and it's always worked well for me on my cars.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Years ago (back in the early 80's) I worked in a paint shop. We basically had 3M and Megs products--rubbing compounds, assorted polishes and waxes--we sure didn't have the myriad of products available today. I'm sure Mike Phillips can relate.

That's the way things were done for decades... ever since we transitioned off the horse and into cars and then after figuring out how to keep them running we starting washing, polishing and waxing them. The "custom" car scene really kicked in after World War II and all our guys that came back from the war started hotrodding.



So, when I got on AGO and started reading about guys wiping down a polished surface with IPA prior to their LSP, or skipping a polish/cleaning step after compounding, to be honest I was a little dumbfounded. I always understood that the oils in polish were meant to nourish the paint while wax sealed those oils in and maintained the polished finish.

IPA before the LSP just serves to dry out the paint eventually leading to a dull finish.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what learned so many years ago, and it's always worked well for me on my cars.
[/QUOTE]

You're accurate but I'll add when we switched over from porous single stage paint to non-porous clear coat paints the feeding of oils to paint kind of went by the wayside because the clear are so hard and dense oils don't penetrate easily.

As clear coat age they become more open with interstices, pockets, pits, pores etc. but when new and in good condition they are very hard and dense.

I talk about this in depth in this article,

The practical differences between single stage paints and a clear coat paints


And touch on this topic in this article,

The Secret to Removing Oxidation and Restoring a Show Car Finish to Antique Single Stage Paints


Here's on just for fun...

Single Stage Paint - Tinted Clears - Basecoat/Clearcoat - Embedded Dirt


Here's another one just for fun...

Clearcoat Fracturing versus Clearcoat Failure


And what the heck one more...

Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful