Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding

[TTQ B4U]

Achieving results in less time - Assuming you know how to use both machines professionally and assuming you can use any pad/compound option, it seems as though using a rotary for compounding is still the most efficient way to go. (I am talking about compounding, not finishing.)

For full finish correction then, using a rotary, followed up with a DA for finishing - you yield best results using the least amount of time.

- Please chime in on your thoughts

Chiming in late. Rotary user here but one that hasn't picked his up for quite a while. The last time I did was on a really, really bad vehicle that had some serious defects.

Overall the main reason I don't use one much is that a purple wool pad on my Flex 3401 with Meg's 101 will cut through just about anything with ease and it leaves the paint in such great shape that all that's required is a light polish with a light polishing pad.

The benefits outwiegh the time savings:

Far Safer. I know how to use a rotary and have for many years. That said, accidents do happen, paints are not all the same and honestly, it will remove more clear/finish regardless of how careful you are. That's a byproduct of the time savings.

Better / Easier Finish. Purple wool with the right compound leaves the compounding phase with so little haze that a light polish is all that's left.

I still keep my rotary handy and will break it out now and then but haven't missed it much on the vehicles I've been working on. I use it selectively when and where needed.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

My troubles and questions stem from the marketing aspects of the new DAs.

Probably no fix for this as you can't change how all the companies in the word operate. Your questions are good but still, you can't change the historical way 99.95 of all companies market their products.

Everyone says their stuff is the best. That's normal. Who would put out a product onto the market and advertise it's not very good?

The claims they make that you can get perfection, don't need skilled detailers anymore and can do perfect paint correction in shorter times with no risk.

My guess is that's a way of reaching out to new people that may have fears about machine polishing.

Point of fact - I reach out to new people every day and let them know that even though they are BRAND NEW to machine polishing, they can get professional results their very first time. Been saying this for years now.

Why?

Mostly due to three things,

1: Abrasive technology - It's so good you don't have to be good to get good results.

2: Tools - Used to be all we had was the rotary buffer and IN THAT TIME PERIOD all we had was crappy abrasive technology and wool pads - so "yes" you actually had to have some skill and experience to get good results. Great results did not come along until the foam pad was invented in 1965 by Walter Cotton.

3: Pad technology - Again... used to be just one pad option. Then later all that was available was HUGE diameter pads and THICK pads. That's all changed now. Who would have though 50, 40, 30, 20 and even 10 years ago we would have 1" pads?

This is why I always type/say I'm a perpetual student. There's NO WAY anyone can be an expert. There's simply too much new technology being introduced at break-neck speed that the only way one can hope and try, (that's two things), to stay caught up is to hang out on a forum like this.


Last year I wrote approximately 109 new articles. Here's a screenshot of the forum groups that show this...

Out of the 109 articles, the two I shared the most were these two,


Here's what you need to get into machine polishing - Recommendations for a beginner by Mike Phillips

How, why & when to inspect your microfiber towels when detailing cars



The first article was written specifically to reach out to NEW PEOPLE that want to make the leap from working by hand to working by machine. Taking normal things like fear and apprehensiveness into consideration plus a person's willingness to break open the bank to get started, I recommended the Griot's Garage 6" Random Orbital Polisher. The BIG PICTURE is that with this tool and MODERN abrasive technology and quality pads anyone that can focus their brand and has enough muscle to grip the tool and guide it in an overlapping crosshatch patter can get professional result their very first time.

And the Lord knows myself and many others have posted horror stories over and over again on this forum sharing where a car was destroyed by a hack detailer (supposed to be "Pro"), or by taking their car to a dealership and having the dealership's staff wash or detail their car, (supposed to be pros), and if that is the criteria then I'd put my money on any newbie, buying the Griot's 6" ROP and then coming here to get start-up guidance any day of the week.

If fact, back in 2012, 6 years ago I wrote this article and it's the PICTURES that tell the story...

Machine polishing paint - It's not that hard and with modern dual action polishers it's real safe!

I just don't agree with all of that and to me sounds gimmicky,

I think there's a valid point that can and is being made that "yes" a brand new person using quality tools, abrasive technology and pads can in fact get professional result their very first time and without using a rotary buffer in most cases.

I'll go on record as saying the below and note that as a veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wax Wars I am very good at picking and choosing each and every single word I use on this forum and in the sentence below.


"The use of the rotary buffer is the fastest way to remove defects, (remove paint) no matter what the shape of the panel and from paint that is close to edges and or objects"


And the reason I included the last portion in that sentence about buffing near objects is because with any free spinning orbital and to a lesser degree with gear driven orbital polishers, it's more difficult to apply cutting ability to the outer edge of the pad because when the pad is oscillating only a portion of the pad is in contact with the paint near the object AND when the spinning pad comes into contact with the edge of the object the friction between the pad and the object will slow or stall pad rotation for free spinning tools. I think the 5mm gear driven orbitals like the Makita PO500C and the RUPES Mille are able to do correction work to the paint next to an object and an edge or raised body line (and for sure curved panels), but overall the rotary buffer still trumps all other tool options simply due to the single direction rotating action and the ability to buff right up to the surface of a protruding object (affixed to a body panel), without pad stall. Plus there are small pad options for rotary drive tools that also make the rotary tool action more effective.

The may be a lot to digest if you have not used most or all of the tools on the market of which I think it's safe to say I have, at least out of U.S. based options.

These pictures and the description from post #28 of my review here kind of show what I mean...

Review: RUPES BIGFOOT MILLE LK 900E by Mike Phillips

BTW, Mike.

Did you notice that because the Mille is more effective out on the edge you got a better result in tight places and didn't have to reach for a different machine on posts etc.?

RSW

Yes and I believe that is for two reasons working together.

it's the shorter stroke or orbit stroke length plus the gear-driven aspect that makes it easier to do correction near edges.


With a long stroke free spinning tool, as the outer edge of a pad hits anything it tends to cause the pad to stall out.

In my RUPES how-to book

On page 55, I created a term called,

The Ghosting footprint and the actual footprint

Here's page 54 and 55

Down just to the right of my thumb is this section...

When you look down at a 21mm, 15mm or 12mm long stroke orbital polisher - if you look carefully you'll see two perimeters... the outer perimeter is the ghosting footprint as there is not 100% pad contact 100% of the time. The inner perimeter is the actual footprint and there is 100% of pad contact 100% of the time.

I'm not very good in PS so here's the best I could do using the images already in the book.

(It's powerful to know how to work with pictures, write and then remember where all this stuff is at )

lowers the perceived standard of a professional and lowers the prices detailers can charge for paint correction.

Hack work lowers the standard for quality for our industry as well as the image and perception of our industry.


Getting a high or fair price for you work comes down to,


A: Your own skill, ability and experience

B: Educating your customer and differentiating yourself from the hacks that work for subpar prices in our industry.



I teach both of the above in all my 3-day classes here at Autogeek.

 

[Eldorado2k]

And the reason I included the last portion in that sentence about buffing near objects is because with any free spinning orbital and to a lesser degree with gear driven orbital polishers, it's more difficult to apply cutting ability to the outer edge of the pad because when the pad is oscillating only a portion of the pad is in contact with the paint near the object AND when the spinning pad comes into contact with the edge of the object the friction between the pad and the object will slow or stall pad rotation for free spinning tools.

This is very true. I suffer greatly with this problem whenever I polish the surrounding areas near my fabric top. Just a few days ago I was testing out the new Blackfire polish and sure enough it happened.. I got too close to the edge with the 21mm polisher and made a nice white mark on the fabric.

I hate when it happens because I know I won’t get around to cleaning it for a while.. Reason for that is I want to polish and seal the paint, and once it’s polished I don’t want to aggressively clean the fabric right next to it. It’s mostly in my head and I should just clean it, but I’m stubborn. Lol.

I can’t ever get any tape to stick to the fabric so my only option is to be careful and hope I don’t bump into it. Slim chance when using a 21mm polisher.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I can’t ever get any tape to stick to the fabric

It's a tick difficult if you're treated it with a protectant.

There is a trick though, whether the top is treated or not, and that's to use tension as your friend. I have pictures showing this and I show it in all my 3-day classes.

All you need to do is use something next to the top like the window glass as an "anchor point". Then run the tape along the bottom edge and all the way around to the other side and again, anchor it to something NOT fabric.


Look at the below picture closely, (I can actually find the original full size and crop out the portion to show it better),

See where the tape is attached to the glass?

That's my anchor point.

The above is from this car I detailed a few years ago -happy to say the owner has done a great job of maintaining the finish.

3D HD Adapt and Poxy Review - 1940 Studebaker Streetrod detailed by Mike Phillips

 

[DBAILEY]

That paint is stunning. Fantastic tip with the taping. Thank you

 

[Eldorado2k]

It's a tick difficult if you're treated it with a protectant.

There is a trick though, whether the top is treated or not, and that's to use tension as your friend. I have pictures showing this and I show it in all my 3-day classes.

All you need to do is use something next to the top like the window glass as an "anchor point". Then run the tape along the bottom edge and all the way around to the other side and again, anchor it to something NOT fabric.


Look at the below picture closely, (I can actually find the original full size and crop out the portion to show it better),

See where the tape is attached to the glass?

That's my anchor point.

The above is from this car I detailed a few years ago -happy to say the owner has done a great job of maintaining the finish.

3D HD Adapt and Poxy Review - 1940 Studebaker Streetrod detailed by Mike Phillips

Totally spot on [and perfectly done too. Wow that looks nice]

I know it can be done if it had to... But you know how we can sometimes be with our own vehicles, especially if they’re daily drivers that are far from perfect. I tend to be alot more forgiving on my own car than I would ever be with someone else’s car that’s in my hands.

You’re absolutely right, tension, and focus on perfection. [and plenty of tape] I’ve definitely thought about it.

 

[DBAILEY]

I use a rotary for small pad use cutting close to objects like you are talking about more often than I use the rotary for compounding the entire car. Compounding sucks and to me a rotary is the smoothest method on all panel types. Once you get your arm/hand positions and grip down it is not that scary. No need to go above 1200 RPM high speeds are not necessary. I work in the 800-1000 range when working on panels. I also think that the paint looks cleaner when the cutting step was via rotary.

 

[dcjredline]

You need to be more specific as to what kind of d/a, and to how It's set up.

You talking random orbital (what orbit stroke?) or forced? You talking microfiber / wool pads and heavy cut compound? New, modern compounds, or old technology.

Give specifics.

It comes off like you already know your answer and are looking for a fight.

I agree, every time someone suggests a strong combo DA you ask why that combo isnt as dangerous as a rotary. Not sure where that came from. Im confused

 

[dlc95]

Heat used to be more of an issue as compounds had shorter working times, rotaries were used at higher speeds, and people were relearning how to use rotaries on newer paints. Just as DAs have come a long way, so have rotaries. I don't have the mindset that you should only do detailing one way. My troubles and questions stem from the marketing aspects of the new DAs. The claims they make that you can get perfection, don't need skilled detailers anymore and can do perfect paint correction in shorter times with no risk. I just don't agree with all of that and to me sounds gimmicky, lowers the perceived standard of a professional and lowers the prices detailers can charge for paint correction.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with your perspective on the marketing, and the myth that putting a rotary buffer to paint will immediately remove all the paint from the surface. It's fostered an unnecessary fear of this tool. For an enthusiast, or even a weekend warrior, relying soley on orbital polishers - that tool will probably suit that person just fine.

However, many crossing over into the professional realm seem to be ignoring the rotary. In the professional realm, this could be a hinderance. I've been called to assist in production environments, where part of their process includes cutting with a rotary. That was/is the shop owner's process. To be frank, I made a lot of money helping this guy out - because I could operate the rotary, and perform HIS system.

Now, this same guy is the one who let me try his Rupes MK2, that was set up for high performance cutting, and in MY hands cut faster than the rotary, but I was not comfortable with it. Yvan LaCroix also reported that the 21mm tool he uses, with the wool pad he uses also cut faster- but his preference in that application is the rotary...

But yeah, some of the marketing techniques can get bothersome.

 

[mwoywod]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with your perspective on the marketing, and the myth that putting a rotary buffer to paint will immediately remove all the paint from the surface. It's fostered an unnecessary fear of this tool. For an enthusiast, or even a weekend warrior, relying soley on orbital polishers - that tool will probably suit that person just fine.

However, many crossing over into the professional realm seem to be ignoring the rotary. In the professional realm, this could be a hinderance. I've been called to assist in production environments, where part of their process includes cutting with a rotary. That was/is the shop owner's process. To be frank, I made a lot of money helping this guy out - because I could operate the rotary, and perform HIS system.

Now, this same guy is the one who let me try his Rupes MK2, that was set up for high performance cutting, and in MY hands cut faster than the rotary, but I was not comfortable with it. Yvan LaCroix also reported that the 21mm tool he uses, with the wool pad he uses also cut faster- but his preference in that application is the rotary...

But yeah, some of the marketing techniques can get bothersome.

What a fantastic post:goodpost:

 

[mwoywod]

I'll go on record as saying the below and note that as a veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wax Wars I am very good at picking and choosing each and every single word I use on this forum and in the sentence below.


"The use of the rotary buffer is the fastest way to remove defects, (remove paint) no matter what the shape of the panel and from paint that is close to edges and or objects"


And the reason I included the last portion in that sentence about buffing near objects is because with any free spinning orbital and to a lesser degree with gear driven orbital polishers, it's more difficult to apply cutting ability to the outer edge of the pad because when the pad is oscillating only a portion of the pad is in contact with the paint near the object AND when the spinning pad comes into contact with the edge of the object the friction between the pad and the object will slow or stall pad rotation for free spinning tools. I think the 5mm gear driven orbitals like the Makita PO500C and the RUPES Mille are able to do correction work to the paint next to an object and an edge or raised body line (and for sure curved panels), but overall the rotary buffer still trumps all other tool options simply due to the single direction rotating action and the ability to buff right up to the surface of a protruding object (affixed to a body panel), without pad stall. Plus there are small pad options for rotary drive tools that also make the rotary tool action more effective.

There's a reason you write the articles rather than clowns like me. :goodpost:

 

[jslym777]

The below is a paragraph directly from the manufacture website. To me, it is misleading, directed towards the general public and discounts what a professional detailer brings to the table.

Obtaining a perfectly polished surface in the least amount of time possible was a primary aim of the BigFoot project. Traditional polishing methods generally require an experienced technician and are very time consuming due to the various steps of sanding, polishing and treating post-polish holograms. BigFoot simplifies the polishing process, substantially reducing time and producing an optimum result with just one step. Thanks to the random orbital movement, BigFoot’s innovative approach eliminates holograms and the need for post-polishing steps generally associated with traditional polishing methods.

Obtaining a perfectly polished surface in the least amount of time possible was a primary aim of the BigFoot project.
Fastest speed to complete full paint correction?

Traditional polishing methods generally require an experienced technician and are very time consuming due to the various steps of sanding, polishing and treating post-polish holograms.
This system doesn't require a skilled technician? Sanding is eliminated because of this system? Sanding no longer requires a skilled technician?

BigFoot simplifies the polishing process, substantially reducing time and producing an optimum result with just one step.
You can do sanding and heavy cut compounding for paint correction in one step? No follow up to refine the finish?

Thanks to the random orbital movement, BigFoot’s innovative approach eliminates holograms and the need for post-polishing steps generally associated with traditional polishing methods.
There is never any DA hazing from using heavy cut compound/pad combination? Never need post polishing?


I am a very technical person and I tend to analyze sentences. I think these tools are great but I can't stand ridiculous statements.

 

[Eldorado2k]

The below is a paragraph directly from the manufacture website. To me, it is misleading, directed towards the general public and discounts what a professional detailer brings to the table.

Obtaining a perfectly polished surface in the least amount of time possible was a primary aim of the BigFoot project. Traditional polishing methods generally require an experienced technician and are very time consuming due to the various steps of sanding, polishing and treating post-polish holograms. BigFoot simplifies the polishing process, substantially reducing time and producing an optimum result with just one step. Thanks to the random orbital movement, BigFoot’s innovative approach eliminates holograms and the need for post-polishing steps generally associated with traditional polishing methods.

Obtaining a perfectly polished surface in the least amount of time possible was a primary aim of the BigFoot project.
Fastest speed to complete full paint correction?

Traditional polishing methods generally require an experienced technician and are very time consuming due to the various steps of sanding, polishing and treating post-polish holograms.
This system doesn't require a skilled technician? Sanding is eliminated because of this system? Sanding no longer requires a skilled technician?

BigFoot simplifies the polishing process, substantially reducing time and producing an optimum result with just one step.
You can do sanding and heavy cut compounding for paint correction in one step? No follow up to refine the finish?

Thanks to the random orbital movement, BigFoot’s innovative approach eliminates holograms and the need for post-polishing steps generally associated with traditional polishing methods.
There is never any DA hazing from using heavy cut compound/pad combination? Never need post polishing?


I am a very technical person and I tend to analyze sentences. I think these tools are great but I can't stand ridiculous statements.

I really don’t see what the big deal is. You have to consider the word “traditional” and when you understand that when they say traditional they mean old school, like way old school, old compounds, old everything.

And believe it or not there’s still a ton of detailers [whether they’re body shop guys or mobile detailers] that still use antiquated products. There’s 2 detailing supply shops located in my immediate part of town here in LA and you’d be shocked to walk in there and find out that neither of them even knows what a Rupes polisher is! Still to this day you cannot buy pads for a DA polisher at either of the 2 so called detailing supply shops. I’m not even kidding.

I walked in there trying to buy some pads that I needed that same day and they had no clue ### I was talking about. But they have Meguiars SOLO pads and everything similar to that hanging on the walls like it’s still the 1990’s.

Old dogs that refuse to learn new tricks are still out there. They’ve been too busy working to ever even have the desire to think about detailing after their work days. Internet? The last thing they want to look at is anything detailing related.. They don’t have a clue and haven’t cared. That’s who they’re speaking to. And it makes perfect sense.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

There is never any DA hazing from using heavy cut compound/pad combination? Never need post polishing?

That all depends on the paint. Softer paints will tend to mar easier than harder paints. But just to note, last year at Mobile Tech Expo Jason Rose and I taught a class together on ONE STEP correction using RUPES BigFoot Paint Polishing System and the point of the class was that on some/many paint systems, you can in fact get away with a one-step process assuming you're starting with GREAT abrasive technology.


What you can and cannot do is never known until you do a Test Spot and then it's up to the person doing the work to have the knowledge and experience to decide upon the course of action i.e. how many steps are needed to achieve the goal - whatever the goal is?

Not everone is looking for a 100% perfect black finish on all cars.


From last year,

Mobile Tech Expo 2017 - Classes this year



8: Faster processes, superior results more profit - Maximizing the BigFoot System for one-step correction work
4:00am to 4:50am
Presented by Mike Phillips & Jason Rose
Autogeek.com & RUPES

Description
The RUPES BigFoot polishing system is designed around the principles of efficient polishing, saving time, consuming less product, and ultimately delivering superior results. This class will center on the BigFoot system components and how you can maximize the selection of tools, compounds, and pads to achieve better results in less time by reducing steps.


It was a great class and very well attended.