Good rule of thumb when using an AIO - stick with foam polishing pads by Mike Phillips

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Good rule of thumb when using an AIO - stick with foam polishing pads by Mike Phillips


I typed the below answer out to a question in another thread but thought it would make a good article too...



Here's the rule-of-thumb you want to follow when using any one-step cleaner/wax on clearcoat paints and that is to TRY to stick with foam polishing pads.

Not foam cutting as this can leave pad haze in the paint.

Not foam finishing as this usually is not aggressive enough to work out below surface defects like swirls and scratches.

You want to be right in the middle, right in that sweet spot that enables you to actually do ONE STEP as it relates to the steps you do to the paint.

Most pad companies offer the below general categories, for example Meguiar's only offers 3 types or categories of foam pads and Meguiar's is a HUGE name in this industry.

Other companies offer a wider selection with pads that fall inside and outside these three primary groups.

From the most to the least aggressive,

1. Foam Cutting Pads
2. Foam Polishing Pads
3. Foam Finishing Pads

Important stuff
If you use a cutting pad, in many cases the pad itself will leave marring, especially when you're using a fresh pad. Of course foam softens up as it becomes WET WITH PRODUCT - so there is some wiggle room in pad choice BUT here's the deal...

If you're leaving pad marring in the paint you will have to re-do the car to remove the marring and now you're back to 2-steps.

Kind of defeats the purpose to plan for or charge for $$ a one-step and then have to do 2 steps.





For those of you that detail for money, 2 points.

1: First when doing a one-step process for a customer DO NOT brag or claim you're going to remove ALL the swirls and scratches. That's not real-world. If a customer wants all the swirls, scratches and water spots removed that's normally a 2 or 3 step process and you should upgrade them to a higher priced package to pay for your time, labor and materials.

Under promise and over deliver but focus on NOT over promising when selling a one-step process but then do your best and you'll both be happy.

​

Here's point 2

2: When you use a foam cutting pad or even a microfiber cutting pad you are likely going to leave pad haze i.e. micro-marring in the paint.

Now on lighter colors you might not see it but you can usually see it on black and dark colors and here's the deal... if it's happening on dark colors it's happening on light colors.

​

It's not professional to do a one-step process to a car and leave pad haze in the paint. This circles back to point number #1 above.


So as a rule-of-thumb... when doing one-step procedures or what I always call "Production Detailing", stick with foam "polishing" pads.


Make sense?


Test Spot
The exception to the rule would be some cutting pads are not very sharp or aggressive. And I've even seen some finishing pads that are as aggressive as some polishing pads. So remember,

Always do a Test Spot

Foam pads can vary in how aggressive they are or how soft they are so do a Test Spot with the pads you are using and use the results from your Test Spot to guide your process.


What I wrote here is just a general rule of thumb - not a hard or rigid practice.

 

[PaulMys]

Gee, another truism from our leader..... Lol

SO true. I use HD Speed with orange foam (LC) on my Ram (Chrysler) paint. I find their clear to be on the harder side, and LC white was not quite doing the job that I wanted.

But, I would never use a yellow LC flat or, God forbid a grey thin pro with Speed.

Micro fiber would be out of the question.

 

[JRP]

I used Flex 3401 and White Hybrid 5" foam polishing pads with M66 on my daughter`s friend Jeep it turned out great.

 

[LEDetailing]

Gee, another truism from our leader..... Lol

SO true. I use HD Speed with orange foam (LC) on my Ram (Chrysler) paint. I find their clear to be on the harder side, and LC white was not quite doing the job that I wanted.

But, I would never use a yellow LC flat or, God forbid a grey thin pro with Speed.

Micro fiber would be out of the question.

I too use orange LC pads for all my AIO HD Speed polishing. I am polishing a 2014 Honda CRV tomorrow, I hope black metallic Honda paint responds well. Now the hard part. Remember to take photos.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

What if you come across hard paint, where a foam polishing pad isn't doing much correction at all?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Autogeekonline mobile app

 

[MTLean]

Great point Mike!

When doing a one-step process I usually go Lake Country Orange CSS pads mixing a few dabs of m105/205 and get a very satisfactory result (less dust from the 105 with a nice 205 finish). But I top it with a LSP therefore not a real AIO

Which AIO product yields the best results for you (maximum swirl removal + protection)?

 

[Dr Oldz]

I have learned from experience than a one step is an improvement and not perfection.

I feel, generally speaking, that most people prefer glossy with some swirls and RIDS Over a dullish looking finish.

 

[TTQ B4U]

I have learned from experience than a one step is an improvement and not perfection.

I feel, generally speaking, that most people prefer glossy with some swirls and RIDS Over a dullish looking finish.

Well stated. To most average people the latter is very true and acceptable. the way I phrase it in my basic clean up package is that it's a perfect to keep your paint looking clean and shine nicely while reducing the day to day scuffs from the paint finish. It is not a paint correction package but it in many cases it will reduce the appearance of swirls and scratches.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

What if you come across hard paint, where a foam polishing pad isn't doing much correction at all?

What's the goal?

Here's what I'm trying to share...

First when doing a one-step process for a customer DO NOT brag or claim you're going to remove ALL the swirls and scratches. That's not real-world. If a customer wants all the swirls, scratches and water spots removed that's normally a 2 or 3 step process and you should upgrade them to a higher priced package to pay for your time, labor and materials.

Under promise and over deliver but focus on NOT over promising when selling a one-step process but then do your best and you'll both be happy.

If you're doing this for MONEY and you're PRICING to do the job in the TIME it will take you to go around the car ONE TIME, then wipe off and you're done, then you stick to what you promised and that is your one-step procedure will NOT remove all the swirls and scratches.

If the paint is hard and the defects are deep you figure that out when you're talking to your customer by inspecting the paint and then doing a TEST SPOT.


Here's the problem and I know that of which I speak from real-world experience. Of course of foam cutting pad will do more correction but like I said, there's a good chance it's going to leave micro-marring or what I call pad haze in the paint. And again for anyone that scanned my first post instead of reading it, on light colored cars you might not see the haze but that doesn't mean it's not there.

If you haze the paint, then you must remove the haze, now you're back to a minimum 2-step process that you're not charging for time, materials and labor.


Make sense?

If you come across a car that a foam pad is not cutting it, (no pad intended), you can re-negotiate with your customer or if it's about your reputation, inclination or ego, go ahead and do two steps... I know I have.



Now if it's your own car and your own time, materials and labor you can spend all day on it.


The BIG PICTURE I'm trying to share with everyone and anyone is when doing a one-step detail job, as a RULE-OF-THUMB (not cast in stone), try to stick with foam polishing pads.


I share this because I've been doing this a long time and I'm telling everyone... there is such a thing as pad haze, that's where it is the PAD and not the product that can leave the paint looking hazy via micro-marring and to get REAL the word micro-marring is the kinder, gentler word for SCRATCHING.


You and anyone can of course do one-steps with foam cutting pads or even microfiber pads, (I would NEVER use a microfiber pad for a one-step), some of you are more experienced, but for anyone just starting out.... all you have to do is buff out a car ONE TIME with a foam cutting pad and your favorite AIO and then after wiping it off, throw the light from a good swirl finder onto the panels and see the pad haze and then let it sink in before you can give the car back to the customer you're going to have to 100% go back and buff out the entire car to remove the haze.

So work smarter.... not harder.... and be upfront with your customer.

If you customer wants the majority of the swirls and scratches removed let them know that's a 2-STEP PROCESS for THEIR car. And also dive deep and let them know the root cause of the problem, that is the root cause of why the paint needs 2-steps is due to how the car has been treated or as I always type, how the car has been "touched".


Hope that helps and good questions Mark. Questions like that keep my typing skills sharp as anyone can throw out a one-liner, especially on Facebook, but to type out in-depth information that is accurate and will stand the test of time is a learned skill just like using a polisher.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I too use orange LC pads for all my AIO HD Speed polishing.

I too use LC orange foam cutting pads with one-step cleaner/waxes and sometimes you can get away with it but you won't know unless you inspect and if you really want to see what's going on at the surface level then chemically strip the paint and inspect with a SCANGRIP Sunmatch Swirl Finder Light or some other strong swirl finder light.

Also - When a foam "cutting" pad is clean and DRY it is its sharpest and this is when it is more likely to cut the paint and haze it. As you work around the car with the same pad the pad will become soggy or wet or saturated with product and the foam will become softer and broke-in. At this point you're probably using a pad closer to a "polishing" pad and no longer a "cutting" pad.

This is also where some seasoned detailers and also newbies get lucky because they don't have a lot of pads so they can switch out to a fresh DRY foam cutting pad for each panel. The lack of pads keeps them safe and they may read what I've written and think I don't know what I'm talking about. But I have the pad resources to switch over to a DRY foam "cutting" pad for each panel and I'm telling everyone, there is such a thing as pad haze and it can and will bit you in the behind some day.

I am polishing a 2014 Honda CRV tomorrow, I hope black metallic Honda paint responds well.

I've only owned one black Honda, it was a 2004 Honda Pilot in Nighthawk Black Pearl and the paint was very soft. I can tell you straight-up if I were to use a dry foam cutting pad with a product like Speed or BLACKFIRE One Step, the pad would leave pad haze.

Now the hard part. Remember to take photos.

Tie a string around your finger?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just to comment....


Great comments everyone...


The reason I wrote this article is from real-world experience. I've seen pad haze when doing one-steps and "hoping" to use a foam cutting pad to do two things,

1: Obviously get the most correction possible.

2: Make the car look it's best in one step and thus make the customer thrilled with the excellent bang-for-the-buck price and results.

​

So anytime you're doing one-step detailing, just be sure to make doing a Test Spot your "best practice" and after doing a test spot inspect the results. Don't wait until you've buffed out the entire car, wiped off all the wax and then L00K only to see pad haze in the paint.


Been there done that.... will try not to do it ever again...


And of course, paints can be different.... some paints are hard, some paints are soft and hopefully for the car you're working on.... the paint is somewhere in the middle.

 

[DBAILEY]

I'll do most of my AIO jobs with a GG6 and 5.5" pads for the main panels. I like to try using the white polishing first, then green heavy polishing and then orange light cutting pads to see how much cut I can get away with without the pad haze. Another way I try to increase the cut is to switch from the GG6 to use a forced rotation machine. I don't really like the long-throw machines and AIO's. It seems to cause more 'ghosting' where the AIO won't fully remove leaving a ghost image of the pad movement on the panel. Maybe they cause the AIO to dry out too quickly, but a forced rotation machine has always heated up the panel more than the LT machine does.

 

[Dan Tran]

My normal go to is a Rupes yellow pad.

But my question is this:

Assuming based on the title of his post, this excludes something like Meguiar’s Finishing Disc, correct?

I only mention this because I have used Meguiar’s Finishing Disc + D301 as an AIO solution at one point in life. This combo was also recommended by a well-known industry leader for a one step.

I get that they were designed as an intended system.

How about Meguiar’s Finishing Disc + Black Fire One Step? For example...

Thanks Mike in advance if you get to this question. Just picking your brain if I may.


Dan Tran
Car Care Specialist
The Buffing Moose Detailing: High-Quality Car Detailing

 

[Cruzscarwash]

so this has been this seasons think to do, as for the past few years my main heavy hitters have changed do to customer demands but as Mike stated and what has set me apart from the few other "polishers" in my area is the truth

i dont say i will remove all teh defects i always clearly state, reduce or it will give minor- moderate corrrection. somthing like that. i explain that for teh price point they are paying they shouldnt expect 100% defect free but can expect improvement. i also ALWAY show proof of work...ALWAYS. so i show the results of the test spot once i get dialed in so they can see what to expect and i stick to that in the agreed apon price and i need to stick to that in order to meet my dollars per hr goal. now that doesnt mean i might not go over a section a little longer to make sure im getting the same overall result as some spots might be more stubburn but i cant get carried away and do taht all the time because then ill get caught up and spend 9 hrs on a job and only make pennies.

the hardest part when i was starting was getting out of my own head and i had to stop giving what I wanted as a nit picky detailer and give what was expected and paid for. thats the hardest part. some can do that as they price where they can spend days on a car and thats wonderful but im not that guy.... YET. i say yet because i will be one of those guys as thats my goal so im sticking to it..lol

i do alot of experimenting because as much as id like to be brand loyal it just doesnt make sense for how i work. outside in 100 plus degree heat, HIGH winds and other factors are always at play so while i can have 4 of the same vehicles in from of me that doesnt mean that they all play the same, so i try out new products all the time to see what will work and what wont as pad/polish/wash etc technology changes all the time. i do have my defaults but i always have a new kid on the block with me for try out to be on the dream team


i want to hit on proof of work once more because idk how many times ive been thanked for it or that ive been told they paid another detailer for teh work and when the result was shown they were very upset. the proof of work ensures my cusomter is happy with the progress, i make sure im getting a good collection of pictures anything i might need them for and so there is no snake oil claims at teh end of the detail.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

My normal go to is a Rupes yellow pad.

I use RUPES yellow pads to, sometimes on RUPES tools, sometimes the 6" on the Porter Cable and sometimes the 7" on the FLEX 3401.

But my question is this:

Assuming based on the title of his post, this excludes something like Meguiar’s Finishing Disc, correct?

Yes - I was not including the Meguiar's DA Correction System in my thinking at the time I wrote this article because to be honest I simply don't use microfiber pads. So I don't use the Meguiar's MF "System", which is a very good system. I used to teach it in my classes for a few years after it was introduced but now show foam pad procedures, at least lately.

The reason why is because of this OTHER general rule of thumb and that is,

Fibers are a form of abrasive

So "yes" you can get a micro-marring free finish using microfiber pad or any type of fiber pad when using orbital polishers but from my own experience, the RISK increases for micro-marring anytime you want to finish with a fiber pad. Best results are on hard paints, never soft paints. So I just remove the risk entirely and don't use microfiber pads, not for cutting and not for finishing and never for one-step AIOs or cleaner/waxes. But that's just "my style".

Normally when I don one-step details, and these tend to be my favorite type of detail jobs, I use a foam LC Hybrid Force pad on the FLEX 3401 and simply get in and get her done. Whatever this pad and this tool with my choice of AIO doesn't remove is okay because I never promise a one-step process is going to remove everything. My customers are good with this. I will say that I practice what I preach and anyone that has taken my 3-day class knows the tip I share to under promise and over deliver with one-steps.

I only mention this because I have used Meguiar’s Finishing Disc + D301 as an AIO solution at one point in life. This combo was also recommended by a well-known industry leader for a one step.

I get that they were designed as an intended system.

And just add, the Meguiar's Microfiber DA Correction System was introduced as a production detailing system to CHANGE THE INDUSTRY. I've typed about his many times so I know there's some lengthy explanation for this concept but the basic premise is that the production detailing industry, that includes,

1. Dealerships
2. Detail shops
3. Auctions

These market segments traditionally use ROTARY BUFFERS to buff EVERYTHING out and as such they swirl everything out. Meguiar's took the challenge to fix the problem by getting these industries away from the rotary buffer and move them to SAFE free spinning orbital polishers, i.e. the Meguiar's G100, then the G110 and now the MT300.

The issue with this idea is that a free spinning orbital polisher doesn't have the POWER offered by a rotary buffer so the SPEED isn't there. And remember, dealerships, historical detail shops acutions DON'T CARE ABOUT QUALITY THEY CARE ABOUT SPEED.

Make sense?

I find over the years I have to be the guy that reminds everyone the history of car detailing and the above is just one segment of it. No problem... as long as I can type and remember. Try to find the above info on FB somehow someway. :laughing:

Who else ANYWHERE on any platform types this fluff out? Name the big names. Where to do they type out info? Answer: No where.

How about Meguiar’s Finishing Disc + Black Fire One Step? For example...

The abrasive technology in the Blackfire One Step is top notch. The combo would and could work but if you see pad haze or micro-marring it's the pad, not the abrasive technology. Me? I'd use foam.

Thanks Mike in advance if you get to this question.

Just picking your brain if I may.

No problem.... I can use my brain for the car detailing world or a door stop...

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just to comment...


I charge $495.00 for a one-step detail.

1. Waterless wash
2. Clay or Nanoskin towel
3. BLACKFIRE One Step (currently)
4. FLEX 3401 with 6.5" LC White Hybrid Force Pads <-- foam polishing pad
5. Sometimes top just the horizontal panels with SONAX PNS

And from start to finish I can usually knock out a car in under 6 hours. So that's around $100.00 an hour and because I only do this part-time, that's not a bad gig. Especially because I enjoy working on cool cars. It's how I got to where I'm at.


Quick, simple and easy. Spectacular results.


If someone wants a ceramic coating that's fine but double the price and more. And at $1000.00+ for the kind of cars I like to work on, these guys tend to have heart attacks.


Heck, squeezing them for $500.00 about kills them.


:laughing:

 

[Cruzscarwash]

So just for the record....

And I'm surprised nobody asked?

I charge $495.00 for a one-step detail.

1. Waterless wash
2. Clay or Nanoskin towel
3. BLACKFIRE One Step (currently)
4. FLEX 3401 with 6.5" LC White Hybrid Force Pads
5. Sometimes top just the horizontal panels with SONAX PNS

And from start to finish I can usually knock out a car in under 6 hours. So that's around $100.00 an hour and because I only do this part-time, that's not a bad gig. Especially because I enjoy working on cool cars. It's how I got to where I'm at.


Quick, simple and easy. Spectacular results.


If someone wants a ceramic coating that's fine but double the price and more. And at $1000.00+ for the kind of cars I like to work on, these guys tend to have heart attacks.


Heck, squeezing them for $500.00 about kills them.


:laughing:

I'm actually shocked you posted prices Mike, thanks for that!! And yes it is heart attack city when they hear the prices.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[jolo]

@ Mike Good stuff as always, THANKS for sharing!

 

[dlc95]

I usually use the buff and shine black foam pads. They're stiffer than the LC, and go a great job cleaning and finishing. I also like the white pads from both LC and B&S.

I also never claim any sort of correction for this process. It's basically a "wash & wax", but it's applied by machine, and the wax has cleaners in it. Any correction is unintended. If a degree of correction is desired, it's time to look to other menu options.

 

[Dan Tran]

YOUR THE MAN MIKE!

Thanks for your superbly thorough answer to my question.

$495 you say? I’ll price match that and let you know how it goes here in Maine. HA! :: rolling eyes ::

For the record:

Mike is the only guy out there who not only answers detailing questions, but he does it in style.

:: slowww clapping ::


Dan Tran
Car Care Specialist
The Buffing Moose Detailing: High-Quality Car Detailing