Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

SiC is Silica Carbide. It's basically what's used in the Optimum line of coatings. SiC is formed as part of the bonding process to the paint, not really SiO2 which is just in the product itself to be applied, that relies on the resin on.
What's it's relation to siloxane? Siloxane is just a form of polymers. Technically speaking, siloxane is a building block made up of Silicon and Oxygen. The right siloxane polymers is actually used as a chemical reaction to create SiC on car paint in the form of coatings.
Phenylsiloxane polymers and heat turns into Silica Carbide. In the Optimum coatings itself, this is achieved chemically with their proprietary blend of siloxane polymers.
Best way to understand it, we put SiO2 on paint vs we put siloxane polymers on paint and it becomes SiC.
It's actually why Optimum can really claim that some of their coatings are permanent. On a scientific level. But SiO2 oxidizes bit by bit depending on blend of bonding agent. (Remember when I said it's the most expensive part of the coating?)
That's why SiO2 coatings have a definitive life on the paint but SiC technically speaking... eh. But SiO2 relies on the resin itself and therefore is able to provide a better shine.
 
WillSports3 said:
SiC is Silica Carbide. It's basically what's used in the Optimum line of coatings. SiC is formed as part of the bonding process to the paint, not really SiO2 which is just in the product itself to be applied, that relies on the resin on.
What's it's relation to siloxane? Siloxane is just a form of polymers. Technically speaking, siloxane is a building block made up of Silicon and Oxygen. The right siloxane polymers is actually used as a chemical reaction to create SiC on car paint in the form of coatings.
Phenylsiloxane polymers and heat turns into Silica Carbide. In the Optimum coatings itself, this is achieved chemically with their proprietary blend of siloxane polymers.
Best way to understand it, we put SiO2 on paint vs we put siloxane polymers on paint and it becomes SiC.
It's actually why Optimum can really claim that some of their coatings are permanent. On a scientific level. But SiO2 oxidizes bit by bit depending on blend of bonding agent. (Remember when I said it's the most expensive part of the coating?)
That's why SiO2 coatings have a definitive life on the paint but SiC technically speaking... eh. But SiO2 relies on the resin itself and therefore is able to provide a better shine.
Click to expand...

Very much appreciated again.

What if anything then does siloxane have to do with SiO2? Or will it only be used for creation of SiC? I ask because I’ve liked a lot of the “ceramic” sprays (IGL, Overcoat, and PBL coatings) that contain siloxane. They last longer in the bottle and they look and behave nicely in my opinion. Are these creating SiC coatings or could they be used in creation of SiO2 ceramics?
 
No siloxane itself is meaningless, kind of like saying sealant. Siloxane on it's own is just two oxygen molecules and a silicon molecule. However how many they stack and are put together(proprietary formulas) means what it makes. Sio2 is a simplification of a specific build up of siloxane in their different form in a ceramic product. For example cquartz uk has three different blends of different siloxane polymers. The only siloxane that produces SiC is Optimum products (that I know of).

Best description, cquartz uk has three blends of different siloxane components that with their bonding agent and solvent carrier put SiO2 in a resin on your clearcoat.
The siloxane blend specific to glosscoat forms a SiC coat in a resin on your clearcoat.

The ceramic sprays dont last long due to siloxane, they last long because the specific blend of siloxane does not require a curing process the way that the siloxane blend does in a true coating.

Siloxane is just the industry way of delivering SiO2 in a format that would protect clearcoat. It comes down to siloxane density and concentration in the formula. For example please, 7 siloxane molecules will be a thicker and stronger component than 3 siloxane molecules. In a coating, just ad a random example, you have a 12 siloxane molecule that links to a 7 siloxane molecule to a other 12 siloxane molecule, etc.
This ends up with let's just say for examples sake, a 90 percent pure SiO2 on your paint meaning that out of the 1.5 micron thickness of coating, 10 percent is bonding resin and other polymers and 90 percent ends up being SiO2.

Now let's take a ceramic spray. Let's just say it's made up of a link of 3 siloxane molecule components that link to each other and it's only 10 percent of the overall liquid, 25 percent is a polymer based sealant that may or may not have loose chain siloxane molecules in it to encourage it mixing with the 3 molecule siloxane and the rest is carrier liquid amd solvents. The simple fact that the spray is mostly solvent and carrier fluid (water, naphtha, IPA) is why the last longer. Looking nicer has not too too much with siloxane, not at that low concentration. That's based on glossing agents in the polymer sealant in this case.

In the case of PBL coatings, it's the solvent choice as well as the specific format of siloxane. Difference for example, between a quartz watch face and a ceramic dish. Also the same difference between the quartz watch face and level IV rifle rated armor plates. It's all siloxane but specific siloxane build density is what makes a difference here.

Cquartz UK uses three siloxane components, and they most likely chain together to create a certain density. PBL coatings use not as dense siloxane components (most likely) hence why cquartz UK will harden an applicator and have a thicker single application layer than PBL coating. It doesnt mean PBL protects less, just means PBL is easier to apply and is mostly likely 1 micron or less layer while UK is 1 micron or more.

Overcoat, IGL, and PBL all use SiO2 as their protective agent or a protective component. So their siloxane blend choices will be based on that as will their carrier solvent, and bonding agent.

GTechniq uses a proprietary blend of petroleum distillates as their main source of solvent. The reason a high spot might need to be sanded off is because it's an ultra dense layer of siloxane component to the point where it's not that it's really that harder but an actual layer is much thicker.

You can polish off a cquartz UK high spot with a towel and your finger but not if that high spot is a quarter of the bottle poured onto your hood. Or if I was to take a glosscoat syringe and drop half the tube onto one spot. Different coating densities.

But it's all different kinds of siloxane when there a SiO2 element. Just like it's always polymer based when it's a sealant. Each manufacturer just had their blend of either or based on their chemists execution of what product they wanna make.

I'm by no means a chemistry expert so I could be wrong here , this is just my understanding. Let me know if you have other questions, I kind of feel like I've massively derailed this thread so my apologies.
 
WillSports3 said:
No siloxane itself is meaningless, kind of like saying sealant. Siloxane on it's own is just two oxygen molecules and a silicon molecule. However how many they stack and are put together(proprietary formulas) means what it makes. Sio2 is a simplification of a specific build up of siloxane in their different form in a ceramic product. For example cquartz uk has three different blends of different siloxane polymers. The only siloxane that produces SiC is Optimum products (that I know of).

Best description, cquartz uk has three blends of different siloxane components that with their bonding agent and solvent carrier put SiO2 in a resin on your clearcoat.
The siloxane blend specific to glosscoat forms a SiC coat in a resin on your clearcoat.

The ceramic sprays dont last long due to siloxane, they last long because the specific blend of siloxane does not require a curing process the way that the siloxane blend does in a true coating.

Siloxane is just the industry way of delivering SiO2 in a format that would protect clearcoat. It comes down to siloxane density and concentration in the formula. For example please, 7 siloxane molecules will be a thicker and stronger component than 3 siloxane molecules. In a coating, just ad a random example, you have a 12 siloxane molecule that links to a 7 siloxane molecule to a other 12 siloxane molecule, etc.
This ends up with let's just say for examples sake, a 90 percent pure SiO2 on your paint meaning that out of the 1.5 micron thickness of coating, 10 percent is bonding resin and other polymers and 90 percent ends up being SiO2.

Now let's take a ceramic spray. Let's just say it's made up of a link of 3 siloxane molecule components that link to each other and it's only 10 percent of the overall liquid, 25 percent is a polymer based sealant that may or may not have loose chain siloxane molecules in it to encourage it mixing with the 3 molecule siloxane and the rest is carrier liquid amd solvents. The simple fact that the spray is mostly solvent and carrier fluid (water, naphtha, IPA) is why the last longer. Looking nicer has not too too much with siloxane, not at that low concentration. That's based on glossing agents in the polymer sealant in this case.

In the case of PBL coatings, it's the solvent choice as well as the specific format of siloxane. Difference for example, between a quartz watch face and a ceramic dish. Also the same difference between the quartz watch face and level IV rifle rated armor plates. It's all siloxane but specific siloxane build density is what makes a difference here.

Cquartz UK uses three siloxane components, and they most likely chain together to create a certain density. PBL coatings use not as dense siloxane components (most likely) hence why cquartz UK will harden an applicator and have a thicker single application layer than PBL coating. It doesnt mean PBL protects less, just means PBL is easier to apply and is mostly likely 1 micron or less layer while UK is 1 micron or more.

Overcoat, IGL, and PBL all use SiO2 as their protective agent or a protective component. So their siloxane blend choices will be based on that as will their carrier solvent, and bonding agent.

GTechniq uses a proprietary blend of petroleum distillates as their main source of solvent. The reason a high spot might need to be sanded off is because it's an ultra dense layer of siloxane component to the point where it's not that it's really that harder but an actual layer is much thicker.

You can polish off a cquartz UK high spot with a towel and your finger but not if that high spot is a quarter of the bottle poured onto your hood. Or if I was to take a glosscoat syringe and drop half the tube onto one spot. Different coating densities.

But it's all different kinds of siloxane when there a SiO2 element. Just like it's always polymer based when it's a sealant. Each manufacturer just had their blend of either or based on their chemists execution of what product they wanna make.

I'm by no means a chemistry expert so I could be wrong here , this is just my understanding. Let me know if you have other questions, I kind of feel like I've massively derailed this thread so my apologies.
Click to expand...

When Mike Phillips passes out the final exams i’m sitting next to this guy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Too kind sir, this is just some research I did to try and understand coatings better for myself. Ended up going down a rabbit hole of LSP stuff.
 
WillSports3 said:
SiC is Silica Carbide. It's basically what's used in the Optimum line of coatings. SiC is formed as part of the bonding process to the paint, not really SiO2 which is just in the product itself to be applied, that relies on the resin on.
What's it's relation to siloxane? Siloxane is just a form of polymers. Technically speaking, siloxane is a building block made up of Silicon and Oxygen. The right siloxane polymers is actually used as a chemical reaction to create SiC on car paint in the form of coatings.
Phenylsiloxane polymers and heat turns into Silica Carbide. In the Optimum coatings itself, this is achieved chemically with their proprietary blend of siloxane polymers.
Best way to understand it, we put SiO2 on paint vs we put siloxane polymers on paint and it becomes SiC.
It's actually why Optimum can really claim that some of their coatings are permanent. On a scientific level. But SiO2 oxidizes bit by bit depending on blend of bonding agent. (Remember when I said it's the most expensive part of the coating?)
That's why SiO2 coatings have a definitive life on the paint but SiC technically speaking... eh. But SiO2 relies on the resin itself and therefore is able to provide a better shine.
Click to expand...

Great posts, this jives with what was recently posted about the new 3D coating

Mike Phillips said:
Here's what Tunch has to say.

And remember what I said about how an SDS sheet is NOT a formula. I've copied and pasted his reply to me about the questions and comments pointed out or asked in this thread below. I have take the liberty to format some of the text to stand out and draw your attention.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hi Mike,

Good comments throughout.


What makes our coating better and different is the “Ceramic Resin“, which is a proprietary formula.


One of the comments was:

“if there is sio2 in the formula one needs a mask when applying”


That is not necessary as it is not in powder form. Therefore it can not airborne. Besides it is amalgamated and in molten state in the mixture.


At high temperatures Sio2 changes its character. In this case it is one of the carriers rather than the main player.


Perhaps to state that ...“Does not contain Sio2 “ in the Q&A is not correct ..rather we should have said

“our coating is not based on Sio2...but based on the “Ceramic Resin”.



First and foremost I want to mention that the purpose of the SDS sheets are to show the hazardous ingredients... not to reveal the formulas.


Basically when there is a fire or any other emergency situations it gives a chance to the first responders to get an idea how to take control of the situation or deal with the emergency. Not for the competitors to figure out the formulations.

Therefore the ranges [of chemicals listed in the SDS sheet), are allowed to be broad. In our case Sio2 was transformed and the resulting formula became the final state.

Many times in Chemistry A+B=C

So when you say do you have A in C the answer is NO. Because the mixture of A&B now became C.

Therefore it is very difficult to reverse Engineer C back to A and B in most cases. I hope it makes sense.

Let me know if I can explain more in detail.


Best Regards & Have a Green Day!

Tunch Goren | C.E.O


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Thanks Tunch!


:bow: :bow: :bow:
Click to expand...
 
Long story short, a SDS sheet will not give you a formula, but it can give you an idea of how valid or invalid a product is. In the example of Turtle Wax's ceramic spray wax, IPA as the only solvent with no bonding agent (bonding agents are quite.. toxic. IGL can only claim VOC free, but not completely green) means that your bodyshop type Prep Wipes will get rid of it with enough time on the surface. I'll check a SDS sheet and if certain types of components are not listed, then I know that the product does not contain a high enough concentration of anything to qualify itself as "ceramic." The alcohol released is also not the correct type from two

The term ceramic is also very misleading. There are very few coatings that are true ceramic coatings. A lot of the coatings you see on the market, and the reason why so many coatings have poor reputations, is because technically speaking ceramic is a very very broad term. Just like plates, watch faces, and rifle rated body armor plates are all ceramic. But so many different kinds of ceramic lol.

3D sounds like it could be using a SiO2 resin to induce a reaction for Silica Carbide for a SiO2 and SiC mixed coating. That's kind of awesome but at the same time, has it's own set of problems.
 
I often look at the material safety data sheets for base oil approximations %'s in motor oils. For example, a DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 68037-01-4 is a PAO.
 
Same idea behind it basically. For me, it's a way for me to save money on products that are just meh.
 
Bump on this thread, since it's the most recent one on these products. This is my experience with both Turtle Wax Seal and Shine (TWSS), and this product (TWHCS), as an amateur working on cars in my family.

The TWSS I used on a blue BMW that sits outside. It had been clayed, compounded, Polished, and waxed (megiuars ultimate line) in late april. The meguiars ultimate liquid wax provides amazing shine and good protection for me for about 2-3 months, it had mostly worn off by July. I applied TWSS after washing on July 23rd, and found it a bit hard to apply without streaking to the hood and other flat surfaces. A little spray of water helped to remove those. The initial slickness and shine was phenomenal, on-par with liquid wax, and it stayed this way for about 2 weeks. After two weeks there was still good shine, but the slickness was much less. Now at 4 weeks later, all the slickness and the extra shine from the TWSS is pretty much gone but the water beading is still ok. I washed the other day and applied a quick coat of meguiars D156, and that brought back a lot of the slickness and shine. So it would seem to me that I might get 6-8 weeks and then the product would be totally gone. For the first 2 weeks It makes washing the car super easy, since the water beads up so readily and dries quickly. Shine was brilliant too.

The TWHCS I applied to a silver lexus that had been washed, clayed, compounded, then wiped down with isopropyl alcohol. This was on July 25th. The paint was clean and grabby, so it seemed like a good base to put the TWHCS on. Application was pretty easy using a light mist per panel, and since the car is silver I did not see much streaking. I let the first coat sit overnight as per instructions, then gave it a second coat the next day. After the second coat, the slickness and shine were phenomenal. It felt so slick to the touch, for sure on-par with TWSS and maybe a bit slicker. If I was prone to hyperbole I might say the car's paint looked "like new" (aside from the plethora of scratches put in from years of scraping by the car in the garage!). Since application the car has sat outside/inside about 50/50, and when outside it has been sitting under trees through a lot of the rain we have seen. The water beading was great for the first 2 weeks as well, and it was pretty self-cleaning (car seemed to stay clean even with no washing). However, now after 4 weeks it seems that the self-cleaning properties (dirt rolling off with water) have gone away as water will dry on the car and leave spots. The paint does bead up very well though, and a quick wipe with some rinseless wash showed that the paint still has good shine and slickness, definitely moreso than the TWSS.

Here is rain on the hood, after a month with simple rinseless wash:
Wo216fC.jpg


And the front quarter:
7OMa999.jpg


It seems to me that the horizontal surfaces are prone to quicker degradation of products, but the beading is still decent.

My verdict: TWHCS seems to last longer than TWSS, in the month that I have tested. I thought initial slickness and shine were very close, but the ceramic spray lasts longer. I think the SNS is a bit cheaper, and does not need the 24h cure time, so that is worth considering. The self-cleaning ability, which is what I was most hoping for, seems to have worn away on the ceramic spray after 3-4 weeks, but since there is still slickness it makes the car quite easy to clean.

I'm not sure if products costing 3-4x what these cost will last dramatically longer and be worth the additional cost. My thinking is not really. I will monitor the ceramic spray on the lexus, and if it keeps the paint smooth and shiny for upwards of 2 months I will be happy. My plan would be to use it on both cars before winter and hope it helps to keep the cars clean through our salt bath months. If anyone has any comments I welcome the feedback.
 
Mike Phillips said:
Not sure why, but your post was placed into the "Moderation Queue".
Click to expand...

Perhaps i've been flagged as a suspicious member... good on your attentive moderation team.

Either way, thanks!

BTW - I used just under 1/4 of the bottle on two coats on the lexus. I think I will reapply before the winter here, probably just 1 coat to boost. Seems to be good value out of the product, in this case.

I was hoping for more self-cleaning, but if it makes washing the car easier then I am still satisfied with it.

How do we think this will hold up to standard touchless car washes? I have read the soap in those is pretty aggressive. I'd like my mother to run it through a wash once every few weeks.
 
Hey Leif,

The product will not survive our Toronto salt. Unfortunately. There are coatings that barely survive the Toronto salt. This product will not really provide you with enhanced self cleaning either. To be quite frank, this is not a very durable product. It's best used to top up after a wash if there's already something more substantial on the car.
 
WillSports3 said:
Hey Leif,

The product will not survive our Toronto salt. Unfortunately. There are coatings that barely survive the Toronto salt. This product will not really provide you with enhanced self cleaning either. To be quite frank, this is not a very durable product. It's best used to top up after a wash if there's already something more substantial on the car.
Click to expand...

Honestly I wasn't expecting much for such a low price. If it could be half as durable as legit coatings that would be fine with me, I would just reapply more often.

Our salt is particularly caustic i guess. What have you seen that has worked the best?
This year my stock is full, so I think I will be working my way through what I have on the shelf (TWSNS, TWHCS, megs ULW, I also have griots AIO sealant but I have heard that is less durable).
 
leif20 said:
Bump on this thread, since it's the most recent one on these products. This is my experience with both Turtle Wax Seal and Shine (TWSS), and this product (TWHCS), as an amateur working on cars in my family.

The TWSS I used on a blue BMW that sits outside. It had been clayed, compounded, Polished, and waxed (megiuars ultimate line) in late april. The meguiars ultimate liquid wax provides amazing shine and good protection for me for about 2-3 months, it had mostly worn off by July. I applied TWSS after washing on July 23rd, and found it a bit hard to apply without streaking to the hood and other flat surfaces. A little spray of water helped to remove those. The initial slickness and shine was phenomenal, on-par with liquid wax, and it stayed this way for about 2 weeks. After two weeks there was still good shine, but the slickness was much less. Now at 4 weeks later, all the slickness and the extra shine from the TWSS is pretty much gone but the water beading is still ok. I washed the other day and applied a quick coat of meguiars D156, and that brought back a lot of the slickness and shine. So it would seem to me that I might get 6-8 weeks and then the product would be totally gone. For the first 2 weeks It makes washing the car super easy, since the water beads up so readily and dries quickly. Shine was brilliant too.

The TWHCS I applied to a silver lexus that had been washed, clayed, compounded, then wiped down with isopropyl alcohol. This was on July 25th. The paint was clean and grabby, so it seemed like a good base to put the TWHCS on. Application was pretty easy using a light mist per panel, and since the car is silver I did not see much streaking. I let the first coat sit overnight as per instructions, then gave it a second coat the next day. After the second coat, the slickness and shine were phenomenal. It felt so slick to the touch, for sure on-par with TWSS and maybe a bit slicker. If I was prone to hyperbole I might say the car's paint looked "like new" (aside from the plethora of scratches put in from years of scraping by the car in the garage!). Since application the car has sat outside/inside about 50/50, and when outside it has been sitting under trees through a lot of the rain we have seen. The water beading was great for the first 2 weeks as well, and it was pretty self-cleaning (car seemed to stay clean even with no washing). However, now after 4 weeks it seems that the self-cleaning properties (dirt rolling off with water) have gone away as water will dry on the car and leave spots. The paint does bead up very well though, and a quick wipe with some rinseless wash showed that the paint still has good shine and slickness, definitely moreso than the TWSS.

Here is rain on the hood, after a month with simple rinseless wash:
Wo216fC.jpg


And the front quarter:
7OMa999.jpg


It seems to me that the horizontal surfaces are prone to quicker degradation of products, but the beading is still decent.

My verdict: TWHCS seems to last longer than TWSS, in the month that I have tested. I thought initial slickness and shine were very close, but the ceramic spray lasts longer. I think the SNS is a bit cheaper, and does not need the 24h cure time, so that is worth considering. The self-cleaning ability, which is what I was most hoping for, seems to have worn away on the ceramic spray after 3-4 weeks, but since there is still slickness it makes the car quite easy to clean.

I'm not sure if products costing 3-4x what these cost will last dramatically longer and be worth the additional cost. My thinking is not really. I will monitor the ceramic spray on the lexus, and if it keeps the paint smooth and shiny for upwards of 2 months I will be happy. My plan would be to use it on both cars before winter and hope it helps to keep the cars clean through our salt bath months. If anyone has any comments I welcome the feedback.
Click to expand...

"A little spray of water helped to remove those.".... and this is probably where you went wrong and affected the product's durability. Next time, try applying with a microfiber applicator rather than spraying straight on the panel. If you have any spots that dried too fast, apply more product on top of those spots and spread as evenly as possible.
 
Ultimate LIquid Wax works quite well. The entire meguiars ultimate wax line is great.
 
mwoolfso said:
"A little spray of water helped to remove those.".... and this is probably where you went wrong and affected the product's durability. Next time, try applying with a microfiber applicator rather than spraying straight on the panel. If you have any spots that dried too fast, apply more product on top of those spots and spread as evenly as possible.
Click to expand...


As with almost all detailing conversation, seems like I have run up against a contradiction. I have read many places, including on the bottle, that a 'damp' MF will help to remove streaks (TWSNS).


0O8ePMK.png



If anything, I think the amount of water is negligible relative to the amount of product.

WillSports3 said:
Ultimate LIquid Wax works quite well. The entire meguiars ultimate wax line is great.
Click to expand...

Another endorsement for the products that I started out with, I figured they would be just fine for my average use. If I can top up the ULW with megs D156 through the winter i'm sure that will only help.

I'm not sure if this has been covered in this thread, but let's say one wanted to step up to a more durable DIY ceramic coating and pay for it. I have read about McKees 37 hydro blue and CQuartz UK 3.0. Would those be considered more 'durable' than the TW/Meguiars/Mothers consumer ceramic stuff?
 
leif20 said:
I'm not sure if this has been covered in this thread, but let's say one wanted to step up to a more durable DIY ceramic coating and pay for it. I have read about McKees 37 hydro blue and CQuartz UK 3.0. Would those be considered more 'durable' than the TW/Meguiars/Mothers consumer ceramic stuff?
Click to expand...
CQuartz UK, absolutely by anyone’s accounts. Hydro Blue might perform better for the first few weeks but will fizzle out within a month or two in most environments.
 
All due respect to everyone who enjoys the Hybrid Spray Coating, use what you like of course and I'm saying this with no offence intended to anyone.
A lack of durability from this product has nothing to do with application and everything to do with how Turtle Wax formulated the product. I can say this with confidence because the main solvent is IPA. Nothing that only requires IPA to keep it liquid will provide you with anything more durable than your typical spray wax. If you like something sprayed that is also easy application and lasts longer, I would highly recommend Meguiar's D156.

Cquartz Uk 3.0 is my go to for a ceramic coating. Good price, and good performance. It pretty much fits what I'm looking for in a coating. And truth be told, there's a few professional level coatings that wish they were Cquartz UK 3.0.

Don't kid yourself about the Meguiars Ultimate line. Barry Meguiar's new Ford GT is protected by his Ultimate Paste Wax because honestly, it just works amazingly well. I keep two sealants in my arsenal. One is McKees 37 original Paint Sealant. The other one is Ultimate Paste Wax. Paint sealant for a production application with finishing pad and a porter cable.
Ultimate Paste Wax when the car isn't going to get coated but deserves a nice show wax but needs something a bit stronger than just carnauba wax.

Only reason I have Ultimate Paste Wax is because I don't like applying liquid sealants. I unno, if I can't rub an applicator on a block of wax, I don't enjoy the application experience.

I don't use products like Hydro Blue or etc will do the same thing a traffic cone will do for a speeding car with a drunk driver behind the wheel as it will do for the road salt. There's something there but that drunk driver is still going right through. When it's all said and done, and the ambulances have come and gone, no one will remember that there ever was a safety cone there in the first place.
 
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