Junkman's, The Mother of All "How to Fix Your Paint for Novices" Thread!

[Coppertone]

^^ I agree Junkman. I've felt that way prior to seeing your videos as well. What people fail to understand, is that on 90% of cars, they are polishing clear coat, NOT colored paint. Essentially, polishing "paint" clears the clear coat, revealing the color underneath. So when I see these Black Box stuff, I have to think......black paint > clear paint > black wax? WTF?

And how about the nonsense that different waxes look different than on different colors, since all wax is applied to clear paint (again, speaking for modern cars). I also scratch my head when I see products claiming a "warm" shine, and some a "bright" shine.

I mean no disrespect to anyone but I doubt the majority of human beings, even car guys, could tell the difference from Souveran and $4 turtle wax from the local grocery store on cars with properly corrected paint.

If any of you are into audio, this to me, is the same as the arguments on how speaker cables sound different from each other.

 

[Junkman2008]

^^ I agree Junkman. I've felt that way prior to seeing your videos as well. What people fail to understand, is that on 90% of cars, they are polishing clear coat, NOT colored paint. Essentially, polishing "paint" clears the clear coat, revealing the color underneath. So when I see these Black Box stuff, I have to think......black paint > clear paint > black wax? WTF?

And how about the nonsense that different waxes look different than on different colors, since all wax is applied to clear paint (again, speaking for modern cars). I also scratch my head when I see products claiming a "warm" shine, and some a "bright" shine.

I mean no disrespect to anyone but I doubt the majority of human beings, even car guys, could tell the difference from Souveran and $4 turtle wax from the local grocery store on cars with properly corrected paint.

If any of you are into audio, this to me, is the same as the arguments on how speaker cables sound different from each other.

LOL! Bam! You nailed it with the speaker wire comparison. In every business, there is hype. From the automotive sales industry to the weight loss industry ("Take this pill and loose 100 pounds while eating pizza every day!"), there is hype. The thing for me is that if the hype is true, there should be some way of proving it. Everything concrete has a formula that no matter how you work it, the answer will always be true and thus make the claim sound. You can take 2+2 all day long and if you have any understanding of arithmetic, you will always find four. That can be proven 24/7/365.

Here's another thing about wax that I see claimed that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The claim that a certain brand of wax will make certain colors pop better than other colors. You know what the problem is with that? The product in the bottle has absolutely no clue what color your car is. So how can it do anything different on a white car that it ain't gonna do on a black car? The product does NOT seep into the clear coat and mix with the paint. The product is not colored in some way, for example if you put a blue wax on a yellow car, you'll get a green shine. Ridiculous right? But yet, people and sellers of detailing products will claim this. The product in the bottle is going to do what it does no matter what color your car is. If that product is excellent on a black car, it's going to be just as excellent on a white car. The product has NO CLUE what color car you are going to use it on.

Hype. Don't believe it. If your common sense is working, you will question some of the stuff you read and see and make sure that someone can back up that claim.

I mean no disrespect to anyone but I doubt the majority of human beings, even car guys, could tell the difference from Souveran and $4 turtle wax from the local grocery store on cars with properly corrected paint.

They did a test like this over at Detailing World. The results were funny as hell. Some of the guys who claimed that they didn't like Collinite waxes actually picked the panel that had Collinite wax on it. As a matter of fact, Collinite came in second place among all the waxes that they tried. This was done in person, not with pictures. So you're dead on with this. People get so blinded by the hype.

 

[swanicyouth]

I have one rule when making videos. If some hot chick can't sit through it without being board, then I have failed. My videos must be that simple. That's why I don't get into all the bone deep details when it comes to fixing paint. I would rather be out chasing skirts than sitting at home rubbing on my car like some kind of detail geek. There are a lot more fun things to rub on and I am usually rubbing on them while cruising down the road. Like these for example... rops:

First, what wax are you talking about that has "some color" to it? I know of no such animal except for that OTC crap they sell called Black Box. If the wax you are using has coloring in it to mask damage in the paint, that stuff is crap. If a wax contains coloring in it, then it can only be used on specific color cars. Again, the only product I know of like that is that Black Box crap.

Second, wax is a protectant. In order to make anything shine, you must polish it. In the Marines, we POLISHED brass and we POLISHED our boots. Result? They shined like glass. On my old Camaro with aluminum wheels, I polished them. Results? They shined like chrome. My girlfriend's jewelry has diamonds in it. It get's polished in order to make the diamonds continually shine. Same with glass, wood and anything else I can think of. If you want something to shine, you POLISH it. No where does wax remove oxidation and defects and make stuff shine UNLESS you are using a cleaner wax, which has POLISH in it. Wax is a protectant. It protects the shine that you get from polishing. If that concept escapes you, then you are a victim of the marketing that detail supply companies do concerning wax. That's the hype that I don't fall for. I use common sense in everything that I do and understanding exactly what a wax does is nothing but common sense.

If you think that wax makes paint shine, then tell me what type of wax is on my car in this picture. I'm sure that you are of the camp that different waxes produce different looks as far as shine goes.

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If someone dyes their hair or paints their house a different color, I couldn't tell what type of dye or paint they used, but I could tell they used dye or paint. What I'm saying is an LSP likely could add subtle differences to paint. Likely you wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a camera. But pictures in general can hide swirls and defects depending on lighting, distance, and angle - or even the sophistication of the camera or photographer.

Obviously "wax" isn't all (or even the main factor) of what makes paint shine, but in detailing isn't the last 2-3% of "pop" what makes the difference? Yes, paint polished to perfection is the main component to a beautiful finish. But, to say the LSP it's topped with can't influence its appearance is something I don't believe is true.

I'm pretty sure your familiar with the demo the guys from Dodo Juice did with their color charged waxes. If not, take a look at the picture below. It demonstrates how various colors and layers of their wax did indeed change the appearance of the car's white paint. Where the tape was (tape line) between the squares shows the original white color. I don't think their wax is "crap", but I do think it demonstrates how wax can have subtle effects on how we see paint.

Now, I know applying a "color charged" wax on white paint may be an extreme example. But, waxes DO have other properties besides color, they have (or lack) clarity, gloss, ability to reflect light, etc... Doesn't it make sense that some of those properties may also enhance or detract from the surfaces' appearance, like the "color charging" can?

For example...

My finger in a glove:

My finger in a glove with wax on it:

Doesn't it make sense some (even a little) of the oils and the "glossing" agents in a wax would be left behind to affect the surfaces appearance to some degree, albeit subtlety? They even use carnauba wax in the candy industry to make the candy glossy and more appealing.

Am I right?

 

[MrKobra]

I was a believer of the max makes cars shine. After seeing the junkman videos I know the truth to the shine POLISH!! Is the answer

 

[Junkman2008]

Am I right?

You are 100% right. However, if I go lay a thin coat of greasy Crisco on my paint, won't it shine a little bit more too? Real shine and created shine are two different things. I don't do "created shine" on my paint. That's like a chick wearing a ton of makeup. Once she takes all that crap off, you get to actually see who you're sleeping with. If she doesn't look just as sexy with no makeup on, I'm not going to interested in her. By the way, you haven't answered that question about my car yet.

Here's the thing. I have yet to have one woman walk up to my car and measure the shine with some kind of software or shine-o-meter. What happens is they see the car, it sparkles in their eyes and they immediately want to get in. They don't ask me what type of wax I use and they could really care less about the depth of my shine or how I achieved it. They just like it because it shines like glass. I do not fix my paint because I'm trying to impress a bunch of hairy-ankle guys. I didn't buy that car to attract those same guys. Pretty much everything I do concerning that car is for me and the ladies. If it weren't for them, I'd be driving my rust bucket El Camino all the time. It gets me from point A to point B and with 500 horses under the hood at 11:1 compression, it's really fun to drive.

So if I need some special kind of software or meter to see that last 2-3% of shine out of my paint, that is completely ridiculous to me. Once you drive two blocks down the street, dust has settled on your car and that 2-3% has just evaporated. What a waste of time that was. My car is NOT a garage queen. It gets driven whenever possible. Although it doesn't look like it has 150,000 miles on it because I take care of it, it does. But the ladies don't ask me about the mileage, they just want to ride. So instead of trying to get that last 2-3% out of my shine, I'm out with the ladies. Common sense (and something south of my navel), tells me that the ladies are a lot more fun than playing with my car. Hey, I still have a pulse and as long as I do, I'm going to be on the hunt.

And the hunt has yielded some really good results.

 

[Coppertone]

Here's another thing about wax that I see claimed that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The claim that a certain brand of wax will make certain colors pop better than other colors. You know what the problem is with that? The product in the bottle has absolutely no clue what color your car is. So how can it do anything different on a white car that it ain't gonna do on a black car? The product does NOT seep into the clear coat and mix with the paint. The product is not colored in some way, for example if you put a blue wax on a yellow car, you'll get a green shine. Ridiculous right? But yet, people and sellers of detailing products will claim this. The product in the bottle is going to do what it does no matter what color your car is. If that product is excellent on a black car, it's going to be just as excellent on a white car. The product has NO CLUE what color car you are going to use it on.

Hype. Don't believe it. If your common sense is working, you will question some of the stuff you read and see and make sure that someone can back up that claim.

JM, I'll take it a step farther....the wax never touches the colored paint. Wax goes on the CLEAR coat. Key word being "clear", lol. I used to buy into all of the marketing hype back in the day....then I just thought about it and realized how silly it all is. Monster Cable got rich off of making Best Buy customers believe that their $90 HDMI cable made the picture "pop". Interestingly, "pop" is a term often used in wax marketing.

I do believe in this "created shine" however....I'm not good enough, nor have the time to get my paint 100% flawless, so I rely on a little bit of help from this created shine that products give. And FWIW, I can't tell the different on my hood from my WGDGPS, 3M Performance Finish, XMT 360 (god I luv how this stuff smells), or even 6 year old Tropi-Care XP Sealant (flashback).

 

[Coppertone]

Swanicyouth, I applaud your thinking. I have a couple thoughts.

Dodo
Colored charged waxes are a whole other dynamic to waxes. Of course they are going to alter the color of the paint, they are colored. My question is, on near perfect paint, why would you want to put a color charged product, which is the color of your base coat, over clear coat? I really think this is a marketing hype deal, rather than a real fix.

Glove
You really have to isolate the variables here. A glove wetted with water glove would have probably looked shiny too.

Skittles
The carnauba def makes it shine, but again, a non carnauba'd skittled wetted with pure water would prob shine too. I think the carnauba smooths the surface of the candy which will enhance shine (like a filler) as well. The carnauba prevents the candies from sticking to each other in the bag as well (there is your protection and water beading! lol)

Guys, I love debates like this.....keeps the pencil sharp.

Cheers!

 

[Coppertone]

JM, cheers to the LS1 powered vehicle. This is my baby:

It's crazy what "good lighting" will do to a pic of a vehicle. In this vehicle, she's a swirled, RIDS'd up mess. If I look at her wrong, a swirl pops up. Caring for a black vehicle can be a full time job. But boy does she look hot at dusk huh? :righton:

 

[Junkman2008]

JM, I'll take it a step farther....the wax never touches the colored paint. Wax goes on the CLEAR coat. Key word being "clear", lol. I used to buy into all of the marketing hype back in the day....then I just thought about it and realized how silly it all is. Monster Cable got rich off of making Best Buy customers believe that their $90 HDMI cable made the picture "pop". Interestingly, "pop" is a term often used in wax marketing.

I do believe in this "created shine" however....I'm not good enough, nor have the time to get my paint 100% flawless, so I rely on a little bit of help from this created shine that products give. And FWIW, I can't tell the different on my hood from my WGDGPS, 3M Performance Finish, XMT 360 (god I luv how this stuff smells), or even 6 year old Tropi-Care XP Sealant (flashback).

I'm with you man. All you have to do is stop and think about it. I know another field is horsepower upgrades. This exhaust will give you this, that exhaust will give you that. If you don't dyno the car, your azz won't know the difference. If I want to go faster, I'm going to do things that actually make the car go noticeably faster. This 7-10 horsepower increase is for the posers. I want 70-100. Something I can feel. When I upgraded the motor in my El Camino, I didn't fool around.

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[Junkman2008]

JM, cheers to the LS1 powered vehicle. This is my baby:

It's crazy what "good lighting" will do to a pic of a vehicle. In this vehicle, she's a swirled, RIDS'd up mess. If I look at her wrong, a swirl pops up. Caring for a black vehicle can be a full time job. But boy does she look hot at dusk huh? :righton:

I would have fun making that paint perfect. rops:

 

[Junkman2008]

Skittles
The carnauba def makes it shine, but again, a non carnauba'd skittled wetted with pure water would prob shine too. I think the carnauba smooths the surface of the candy which will enhance shine (like a filler) as well. The carnauba prevents the candies from sticking to each other in the bag as well (there is your protection and water beading! lol)

Guys, I love debates like this.....keeps the pencil sharp.

Cheers!

And I can explain exactly why this is. Scratched up paint causes light to scatter. Just like the pic of my scratched up paint in the very first post in this thread. When the paint has been fixed, the light will only bounce in one direction, depending on the angle that it is hitting the paint. This makes the paint look very deep and shiny. A filler will attempt to hide scratches and reduce light scatter. The less scatter you have, the better your shine will be. It's that simple. Here's some pictures of some paint that I fixed that proves that without a question.

 

[Junkman2008]

Junkman, everything your saying makes purfect sense (you usually do). So let me ask you two questions.

1) do you think maybe different waxes may at the very least make a very slight difference to how light reveals gloss?

2) this is more of a comment I guess. I hope you hittin' those and not just lettin' 'em pose in your car. If so, git it any way you can bruh. LOL

lol! You would have to visit another site to find out!

I'm pretty sure that different waxes can affect the way paint looks to some degree, but that depends on the condition of the paint BEFORE the wax is applied. The problem is, a lot of people either see different things when it comes to different waxes or they only see what they want to see (the emperor has no cloths). Personally, I can't tell a difference in my paint, whether I use a carnuba paste or a synthetic sealant. The paint looks exactly the same to me no matter what I use and I have tried a bunch of different brand. I get sent stuff from around the globe so the stuff that I have tried varies greatly.

I'll add this. I'm 50 years old and my eyesight ain't what is was when I was picking off targets back in the 80's at 500 yards with a M16 so maybe I just can't see it but my rule of thumb is, why do something to your paint if you can't see the advantage of doing it or completely understand the benefit of doing so? If a $2000 wax looks exactly like a $20 wax to me and they both offer the same exact level of protection, guess which one I'm buying? It's not like I have hot women chasing down the street because I use some expensive wax on my car.

I wish it was THAT easy!

 

[runrun411]

lol! You would have to visit another site to find out!

I'm pretty sure that different waxes can affect the way paint looks to some degree, but that depends on the condition of the paint BEFORE the wax is applied. The problem is, a lot of people either see different things when it comes to different waxes or they only see what they want to see (the emperor has no cloths). Personally, I can't tell a difference in my paint, whether I use a carnuba paste or a synthetic sealant. The paint looks exactly the same to me no matter what I use and I have tried a bunch of different brand. I get sent stuff from around the globe so the stuff that I have tried varies greatly.

I'll add this. I'm 50 years old and my eyesight ain't what is was when I was picking off targets back in the 80's at 500 yards with a M16 so maybe I just can't see it but my rule of thumb is, why do something to your paint if you can't see the advantage of doing it or completely understand the benefit of doing so? If a $2000 wax looks exactly like a $20 wax to me and they both offer the same exact level of protection, guess which one I'm buying? It's not like I have hot women chasing down the street because I use some expensive wax on my car.

I wish it was THAT easy!

Or they could be saying to themselves "if he can spend 2,000 bucks on some wax, he for sure could buy my that expensive pair on shoes". But like you said, that would be a discussion on another forum.

 

[Coppertone]

I would have fun making that paint perfect. rops:

I'd def take you up on that! I get discouraged every time I see her in bright sun light. TONS of defects...

 

[Rez90]

In for later.

 

[Junkman2008]

Or they could be saying to themselves "if he can spend 2,000 bucks on some wax, he for sure could buy my that expensive pair on shoes". But like you said, that would be a discussion on another forum.

I usually end up buying their shoes anyway because I only like seeing my women in heels. If they wear flats, they get to ride in the rust bucket, not the Vette..

I'd def take you up on that! I get discouraged every time I see her in bright sun light. TONS of defects...

I've given you everything that you need to fix it, what are you waiting on? By the way, where are you located?

 

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Or they could be saying to themselves "if he can spend 2,000 bucks on some wax, he for sure could buy my that expensive pair on shoes". But like you said, that would be a discussion on another forum.

I usually end up buying their shoes anyway because I only like seeing my women in heels. If they wear flats, they get to ride in the rust bucket, not the Vette..

That had me laughing. You guys are funny. :xyxthumbs:

 

[KBsToy]

Again Junkman you speak the truth. I am a novice but I understand about prepping paint first to get the correct shine. On different forums people talk about waxes but never the prep work to get their shines.

Again good to hear from uniz (Pittsburghese)

Going to Grabiks Sat will miss not BSing with you.

:urtheman:

 

[Coppertone]

I've given you everything that you need to fix it, what are you waiting on? By the way, where are you located?

I fixed it in 2008 when I first bought my PC (non-xp), and it was an absolute pain in the ass and I never want to have to do it again. I used Menzerna SIP, and a Swirl remover 2nd step. As much as I tried to keep it at about 80-90% defect free....two bucket method, ONR, filtered water, etc., it swirls up if I look at it wrong. I can relate to your "you should never have to do this again" regarding 105 in a video, but it just doesn't work like that for this car. I swear I can touch it with a piece of silk and it will swirl up. Cobra microfibers just as soon be barbwire.

I attempted to do a one step last week to just clean it up a bit, and after about 2 hours, I was inside shopping prices for a new paint job other than black......I'm dead serious.

I'm in Southeast Louisiana, home of the water spot.

 

[Junkman2008]

Two things that you said that heavily contribute to your issues. ONR and Cobra microfiber towels. Those are two things that I would NEVER do. There's no telling what else I could find if I actually sit down and watched you.