Black Roof on Boss 302 Mustang Issues

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mhoran89

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I recently polished a Ford Boss 302 Mustang (fairly new car). Car was white with plenty of vinyl which was taped off. I confirmed the roof was painted and cleared (it was black). I used chemical guys paint correction 2 (no. 721) on a chemical guys orange hex logic pad (on the white portion of the car). Results were extremely good, removing almost all RIDS and left the paint completely swirl free. (Granted the car only had around 1,500 miles but the prior owner neglected it).

The roof on the other hand was impossible to finish down swirl free. :bash: I used a heavier compound like paint correction 3 (no. 700) with a buff and shine microfiber cutting pad (orange foam). Then progressed all the way to V38 and finally paint correction 1 (no. 778) and a hex-logic white polishing pad. This restored gloss to the roof (considering it had haze from compounding) and took out / lessened the appearance of any RIDS.

No matter how long I broke the product down for, how much I primed the pad, spritzed the pad with conditioner, WHEN I NOTICED SWIRLS I ALSO SWITCHED TO A NEW PAD. I could not get the roof to finish down swirl free. The swirls really were not too bad, but they were noticeable. I had the same issue on the lip spoiler on the trunk, as I am assuming it was painted in the same manner as the roof.

I did not try going down to a blue hex-logic or black hex-logic, but used the least abrasive products I had with a white pad. I was perplexed and had never seen anything like it. I did all the polishing with a Flex 3401.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, considering when I go back to do a maintenance polish on his car I am going to correct the roof/spoiler on my dime. I had a lot of trouble leaving this guy with the two sections not being defect free after a major 5+ hour paint correction.
Thanks in advance,
Matt
 
Previous owner neglected it. You confirmed it was painted. Not doubting you at all - but did the current or previous owner have the roof blacked out? How did you confirm it was painted?

I ask because I would think it is much, much more likely for them to be gloss black vinyl, especially hearing the difficulties you are experiencing. Especially given the spoiler is black too.

That would be the first thing that comes to my mind.
 
I'm not sure about those CG polishes, as they may be what I'd call "old tech". Combine that with black paint and the forced rotation of the Flex - and you may have your problem. It sounds like your not having an issue removing the defects - but an issue finishing down the "defects" the compound has imparted.

If it was me, I'd try a SMAT polish, like Optimum, on a non forced rotation DA for like 3 passes. Your not the first one to have an issue finishing down with the 3401. It seems to happen on occasion around here.
 
It could very well be the previous owner had the spoiler and roof "blacked out". There were no edges, seams, or anything else on either surfaces that led me to believe there was vinyl on them. There was plenty of black vinyl on the car and the spoiler/roof did not look or feel anything like the other sections that had vinyl.

I do have a porter cable and maybe I should have tried that. Everything I have is D.A.T. I have been looking into expanding my arsenal with a S.M.A.T polish.
 
swanicyouth said:
I'm not sure about those CG polishes, as they may be what I'd call "old tech". Combine that with black paint and the forced rotation of the Flex - and you may have your problem. It sounds like your not having an issue removing the defects - but an issue finishing down the "defects" the compound has imparted.

If it was me, I'd try a SMAT polish, like Optimum, on a non forced rotation DA for like 3 passes. Your not the first one to have an issue finishing down with the 3401. It seems to happen on occasion around here.
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I have to agree with you on the CG polishes. I bought V36 and V38 to try out....both sucked! V38 no matter how much I shook the bottle it was liquid. Any case threw them away and use Menzerna as my go to polish (megs 105/205 2nd).

As for your black roof....I have a Black Mustang GT and I was able to correct the swirls with Menzerna PF2500 w/Orange Pad and SF4500 with White Pad. I do not know if that will help but that is what I did.

:buffing:
 
I have had fantastic success with the chemical guys V line of polish. On everything from newer Mustangs to Porsche/Subaru, to mid 2000's cobalt, 2013 lexus gs and more. So I have dealt with different paint hardnesses.

I have some menzerna stuff, maybe I should have tried sf4000 which is the least agressive menzerna product I have. I figured the clear hardness on the car would be the same for the roof/spoiler but I guess not.

If you had a bottle of V polish that was runny like cream instead of mayo you should contact chemical guys. I called them and turns out they had some bad batches that were supper runny. They promptly sent me replacements free of charge!

As far as I know menzerna is D.A.T. I haven't used anything that is S.M.A.T. What would be the advantage of using a product that features the latter technology?
 
Even being a Boss plenty of people do dumb cra* to a really nice car especially with graphics.

Let's just say it was vinyl. If the installer was really good it's quite simple to hide edges and seams if they know what they are doing with wrapping and installing graphics. 3M warrants the materials for 3 and 5 years. You can print a rich black on the vinyl and use a hi gloss laminate over the top. You end up with nice shiny black. They make different weights of vinyl and laminate. The lam is probably 3 mil which is thick but your polishing a material and not paint.
No matter how hard you try you will never get those RIDS off that laminate. You will only melt it with enough heat. You would need a heat gun to remove the vinyl.
Things you can check. See if there are any color changes in the roof or spoiler. See if the color looks darker in one place then the other as far as density. The UVB and UVA protection in the laminate can fail in uneven blotches, tiny specks that seem like fall out that's under the gloss laminate, cloudy spots in the laminate.
I used to print custom vinyl graphics. It's much cheaper to get that roof and spoiler done in vinyl then painted.
 
First things first : the difference between vinyl and clear coat is like night and day ...texture is the key and the obvious raised edges where the vinyl ends...

In the past i tried and tried to finish off a black car swirl free only to realize that it was a uphill battle .. lots of time in my experience the culprit was fresh clear coat ..when clear coat is not cured it will " move around " as its curing ..it can take up to if not more than 3 months , depending what was sprayed on it ....so try not to beat yourself up over it ..plus you're using a rotary buffer which will also be fighting you ..as far as the product you're using i cant comment for reasons that i never heard of it ..

Now for some good news .... Get yourself some Wolfgang Uber Compound and a orange foam pad and blast that roof with your rotary and be sure to wipe off the residue
then get some Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover and hit it with a Flex XC 3401 VRG on a black pad and finish it off with a Pinnacle Advanced Finish polish on a white pad then give it a wax job ....

I know its easier said than done ... BUT you will be amazed at the finish you'll get ..trust me !! its worth the investment ...
And remember if the orbital isn't spinning its not doing anything except making noise ..

hope this helps.
20140423_101005.jpg


here is a number four of only five in the world Lincoln in jet black ..what i wrote is what i did on this car ...results speak for themselves ... the key is the Uber Compound !! ITS FANTASTIC S@#T !!! :dblthumb2:
 
Maybe I missed something, but I thought the OP was using a 3401 - not a rotary. I also thought he was having an issue clearing up the compound haze - not cutting. When I was talking about "old tech" CG's polishes - I wasn't talking about all of them or the "V line", but that 7xx stuff. The V Line is supposed to be the good stuff!

Why would you use SMAT on a finicky paint? My reason would be: get in - get out. Do only 2 or 3 passes to fix the marring left by the compound. You won't have to worry about breaking down the polish, or as much clear coat residue on the pad which can be another issue on finicky paint.
 
What year Boss? If I am not mistaken: 2012's were painted roof, 2013 on up are vinyl.
 
Just spoke with the owner of the car, it's a 2012. We verified it's painted black, so that issue is resolved. I tried a newer product (chemical guys V36) which I have had good luck finishing down with on softer paint with a hex-logic green or white pad (white being less aggressive) depending on the amount of defect removal required.

I feel the same way, I don't think a S.M.A.T. product on finicky black paint would be a good answer... Then again I have seen M205 used on super soft Subaru paint and finish down flawless...

Maybe I should try some menzerna 4000/4500 with a pad with no cut (black hex-logic)?
 
Ok...now maybe I missed something. I thought you said you were able to get the gloss back but the swirls were still there. Are these the swirls that were there or swirls your process was putting in the paint?
 
Matt, I'd like to say I know how to help you on that one, but I don't use anything from CG, except their shampoos. ;) I do know that their older stuff nobody seemed to like.

I also would stay away from anything SMAT on SS black, and most CC black paints. That darned stuff just ends up micromarring/hazing most every time. I tried to

One statement you said that concerns me though is this: "I had a lot of trouble leaving this guy with the two sections not being defect free after a major 5+ hour paint correction."

I can understand leaving the job not where you wanted it, if you didn't have anything that'd do it. But that may end up with the guy not wanting you to touch it again. :eek:
We would have 5+ hours in the washing, decon, prep and taping, long before we ever picked up a buffer with a pad on it. Multi-step paint correction, even 2-step we'll spend 15~20~25 man hours on. Sometimes it's the time that gets it done, not the product.
 
I just did a black Porsche and used M205 with great success. I used a Porter Cable, however, so it may be a little different.
I do not have any specific advice, but every time I go through the polishes/compounds that I believe are most appropriate only for them to not work I change my technique.
This could mean more/less pressure than you are currently using, increased/decreased machine speed, working the polish/compound in differently (pressure/speed), or finishing the product differently.
 
DaveT435 said:
Ok...now maybe I missed something. I thought you said you were able to get the gloss back but the swirls were still there. Are these the swirls that were there or swirls your process was putting in the paint?
Click to expand...

I am not quite sure. Thinking back on it maybe they were in the paint, and not caused by my polishing. Only thing is I hit the roof multiple times, each time switching to a less aggressive product and still had no luck. After compounding twice with a fairly aggressive product (first pass was with orange hex-logic, second with orange buff and shine microfiber cutting pad) I feel as though any deep swirls that were in the finish would have been taken out and then I could remove any compounding haze/swirls with the next steps...
 
I understand the time involved, the car was already stripped of any LSP, washed, and clayed before I got there. My plan was to do a 1-step polish on the car and then do whatever was necessary on the roof/spoiler, considering they were black. I applied Wolfgang Fuzion as a LSP. I had done a 2012 silver mustang the weekend before and did a 1-step on it with the same products and a less aggressive pad and had very good results, for this car I decided to use a pad with more cut on the paint (white portions).

I tried using a slower speed (3), moving very slowly and making sure the product had been worked through its life cycle as well. I am going to have to re-evaluate, and possibly use a very light polish with a pad with little/no cut on a porter cable and see what happens. Ever since I switched over to a flex I haven't needed a PC much, even on very soft paint, and I have done Porsche's before; additionally I own a Subaru so it's not the first time I have seen soft paint.
 
mhoran89 said:
I am not quite sure. Thinking back on it maybe they were in the paint, and not caused by my polishing. Only thing is I hit the roof multiple times, each time switching to a less aggressive product and still had no luck. After compounding twice with a fairly aggressive product (first pass was with orange hex-logic, second with orange buff and shine microfiber cutting pad) I feel as though any deep swirls that were in the finish would have been taken out and then I could remove any compounding haze/swirls with the next steps...
Click to expand...

It seems like what you've done would leave more or a haze than actual swirls. Sounds like the paint is extremely hard or extremely soft. Have to figure out which.

I did my son's Hyundai Genesis coupe last week and I had to compound the roof three times with M101 to get the swirls out .

You said you went less aggressive and you got gloss back. That leaves me to believe it's extremely hard paint. Just my humble opinion.
 
DaveT435 said:
It seems like what you've done would leave more or a haze than actual swirls. Sounds like the paint is extremely hard or extremely soft. Have to figure out which.

I did my son's Hyundai Genesis coupe last week and I had to compound the roof three times with M101 to get the swirls out .

You said you went less aggressive and you got gloss back. That leaves me to believe it's extremely hard paint. Just my humble opinion.
Click to expand...

Could well be extremely hard. The rest of the paint was, along with the two other new mustang's I have done. Maybe I will make another pass with a compound/cutting pad and then try to work down to a light polish like menzerna FF4000 or chemical guys V38 and see what happens. I was not worried about restoring gloss/removing haze after compounding, it's the swirls that worried me.
 
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