Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

Thank you for a very very interesting and informative post.

After a brief search I came up wit this 10 year old bulletin by Mercedes that might give some additional info.

They recommend the use of a DA with a soft pad and Meguiars or 3M.... Nothing we are not aware of, plus we all know that the technology of polishes has advanced tremendously since 2002.

Here is the bulletin. I hope it helps.


http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinis...s/mercedes_info_ModelsUsingPPGCeramiClear.pdf
 
David Fermani said:
Mike – This is a great article! I’ve not only corrected many vehicles equipped with finickey clears, but ones with the notorious (and misrepresented) CeramiClear finish. This finish is actually a joint effort of PPG and Mercedes of Germany. PPG also makes/has made a few other similar clears for BMW 5, 6 & 7 Series (Powered Clear) and Ferrari (I can’t recall the name), Infinity (Self Healing), Nissan (Scratch Guard).

Mercedes is the only manufacturer using CeramiClear on most of their overseas manufactured vehicles. Mercedes produced in the US, such as their ML , GL and GLK trucks, do not have CeramiClear as well as any vehicle with a Carbon Fiber substrate like the Black Series and SLR which is actually painted in England (McClaren). As a matter of fact, I’ve been told my one of the PPG factory reps that the clear on the SLR (which is extremely soft) can actually be reflowed with a dedicated heat lamp making it more rigid.

The nano-particles in the CeramiClear system is not only in place on the top surface portion of the clearcoat, but throughout the entire clearcoat surface, but for the most part the “hard” attributes are highly concentrated in the upper .2-.3 mils of the surface. So, this special feature can be removed with heavy buffing and/or sanding. Because this surface is so hard in nature, it would take multiple hard buffing sessions to conquer this.

Mercedes started using CeramiClear finishes around 2003 and can be identified by inspection of their Vin tag located on the driver’s door jam. Look to the paint code and it should have a “C” indicating that it is indeed CeramiClear.

04SL55133.jpg


Despite what Eric mentioned, CeramiClear can and is being applied in the refinish industry. I actually know of 2 shops in the S. Florida area that are spraying CeramiClear and charging a premium for it too. Hope this helps!
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Awesome info - I actually checked the last Mercedes we did and looked for a C because of this thread and pic posted... allowing me to figure out which would be the best method to correct when my client wants it done - the C was not there by the way, but a very happy customer knowing that his detailer was knowledgeable of such an "issue". Another big thanx to AG for the sharing of knowledge :dblthumb2:.
 
I don't know much about this finishes. I have seen on TV. program using ceramic-lair paint on Ferrari Fiorano 599. I got some quarries regarding this paint.
[1] If they are scratch resistance then how do they get scratched?
[2] If both the paint finishes [regular clear-coat & ceramic-lair] are going to get scratched then why don't automobile manufacturer uses the clear coat finish as it will be economical to them?
[3] In Meguiar's promotional video regarding Diamond cut compound they said it will also wok easily on scratch resistant paint finish.
 
David Fermani said:
Mike – This is a great article! I’ve not only corrected many vehicles equipped with finickey clears, but ones with the notorious (and misrepresented) CeramiClear finish. This finish is actually a joint effort of PPG and Mercedes of Germany. PPG also makes/has made a few other similar clears for BMW 5, 6 & 7 Series (Powered Clear) and Ferrari (I can’t recall the name), Infinity (Self Healing), Nissan (Scratch Guard).

Mercedes is the only manufacturer using CeramiClear on most of their overseas manufactured vehicles. Mercedes produced in the US, such as their ML , GL and GLK trucks, do not have CeramiClear as well as any vehicle with a Carbon Fiber substrate like the Black Series and SLR which is actually painted in England (McClaren). As a matter of fact, I’ve been told my one of the PPG factory reps that the clear on the SLR (which is extremely soft) can actually be reflowed with a dedicated heat lamp making it more rigid.

The nano-particles in the CeramiClear system is not only in place on the top surface portion of the clearcoat, but throughout the entire clearcoat surface, but for the most part the “hard” attributes are highly concentrated in the upper .2-.3 mils of the surface. So, this special feature can be removed with heavy buffing and/or sanding. Because this surface is so hard in nature, it would take multiple hard buffing sessions to conquer this.

Mercedes started using CeramiClear finishes around 2003 and can be identified by inspection of their Vin tag located on the driver’s door jam. Look to the paint code and it should have a “C” indicating that it is indeed CeramiClear.

04SL55133.jpg


Despite what Eric mentioned, CeramiClear can and is being applied in the refinish industry. I actually know of 2 shops in the S. Florida area that are spraying CeramiClear and charging a premium for it too. Hope this helps!
Click to expand...



My 2007 GL450 has a paint code of C693 built in Alabama
 
surajprasade said:
[1] If they are scratch resistance then how do they get scratched?
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Scratch-resistant is different than scratch-proof.

They will still scratch. Be careful.


surajprasade said:
[2] If both the paint finishes [regular clear-coat & ceramic-lair] are going to get scratched then why don't automobile manufacturer uses the clear coat finish as it will be economical to them?
Click to expand...

The scratch resistant clears are a cool paint, the problem with ALL FACTORY paints is they are too too thin for people like us that work on them. Park them in a garage and never drive them so they don't ever see any wear-n-tear and no problems. Problem is that isn't real life.


surajprasade said:
[3] In Meguiar's promotional video regarding Diamond cut compound they said it will also wok easily on scratch resistant paint finish.
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Lots of products will "easily work" on any paint systems... the problem I pointed out was the scratch resistant part of the paint is in the very upper layer and if you break through this you no longer have the cool benefit that makes the paint cool to start with.

Take read-through my first post again...

I don't have any good answers, just a rant that car manufactures don't put enough paint on their cars and the paint they do put on their cars should be a paint WE CAN ALL WORK ON EASILY!

Note: Not yelling at you when I use all capital letters, it's just me ranting about the problem with car manufactures putting thin paint on all their cars.


:cheers:
 
Checked my car and I have C775, which is the iridium silver. I guess i will be sticking to hand polishing/waxing and abandoning my GG 6", as it would be my first machine.
 
NYCLR3 said:
Checked my car and I have C775, which is the iridium silver. I guess i will be sticking to hand polishing/waxing and abandoning my GG 6", as it would be my first machine.
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I would still machine polish a car with a machine that has this finish. I would be aware of anyone asking to have their car detailed if someone else already butchered it.

I personally think the Ceramiclear paints polish up very nicely and you cannot outperform the machine with your hand for gloss and clarity.

Just follow this sage advice,


"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

Also, take ownership of the car washing process and focus on the task at hand when washing your car's delicate, thin and expensive paint.




:)
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
I wouldn't polish at all, any paint codes with "C". It's not worth it.
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Mark, I'm not sure I would agree. I will probably stick to M4500 and a LC Crimson HT pad for those cars.
That process should be mild enough to give good results on a "new" cars finish, now older models that have been done previously I might tend to agree with you
 
I am the original owner of the car and have cared for it mostly myself, with the exception of a few passes through a car wash during the winter months. Being that it is silver it shows very few swirls and holograms. I have clayed it, used p21s paintwork cleanser, #845 and PowerLock. I am doing this as a hobby and want to spend more on supplies than fixing my self inflicted damage. I think I am going to pick up Menzerna Finish Polish PO85RD to clean up winter damage, but still after reading this can't make the plunge to a polisher, unless someone else convinces me otherwise. I really want one though.
 
P85rd is not meant to be used by hand. I wouldn't even attempt it.
 
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NYCLR3 said:
I am the original owner of the car and have cared for it mostly myself, with the exception of a few passes through a car wash during the winter months.

I think I am going to pick up Menzerna Finish Polish PO85RD to clean up winter damage, but still after reading this can't make the plunge to a polisher, unless someone else convinces me otherwise. I really want one though.
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Get a DA Polisher, some 5.5" white polishing pads and gray finishing pads and a light polish like the SF4000 and your car will look great, your paint will be safe and you'll be happy plus your hands, arms and shoulders won't be sore.


Menzerna - New Names and Product Numbers


Menzerna has introduced all new labels and product names for identifying their products. I know it's easy to stick with what you know and change can be hard but the new product names and identifying numbers are here to stay so might as well make the switch when talking and typing about them..
NewMenzernaLabels001.jpg





No label change at this time for,


:xyxthumbs:
 
Mike, Excellent info as always. Robert, thanks for bringing this articile to my attention & good choice to turndown the AMG. David, nice vid & thanks for sharing.

Just my luck, guess what is sitting in my shop & client wants Scratches removed. Paint code starts with the letter "C". Did a small test spot on the roof, least aggressive first as usual, etc. etc. etc up to aggressive nothing, nada. Not going to wetsand. So ended up doing PO85rd, orange Hydro Tech on a GG, topped with WGDGPS ...made a 2010 Black SUV Blacker!!! Do I feel I accomplished something? YES not having to use MY Insurance!!! Plus it's a DD & has seen more automatic car washes than I could count.
Again thanks to all who just gave me more Education for the future.:props:
 
Ok, so to further hijack the thread I purchased a GG 6", 5" backing plate and 3 white and 3 gray 5.5" pads, plus a bottle Menzerna SF4000 per Mike Phillips advice. I plan on:

washing
claying
polishing w/ SF4000
topping w/ MPL and or #845

Should I skip the #845 and head for the MPL? or do both? I also have p21s paintwork cleanser, I would imagine that is close to the SF4000? Or is that an additional step? thanks.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
P85rd is not meant to be used by hand. I wouldn't even attempt it.
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What negative outcome could happen?



detaildave said:
Do I feel I accomplished something? YES not having to use MY Insurance!!! Plus it's a DD & has seen more automatic car washes than I could count.
Again thanks to all who just gave me more Education for the future.:props:
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Good to hear the article helped out Dave, keep up the good work!



NYCLR3 said:
Ok, so to further hijack the thread I purchased a GG 6", 5" backing plate and 3 white and 3 gray 5.5" pads, plus a bottle Menzerna SF4000 per Mike Phillips advice. I plan on:

washing
claying
polishing w/ SF4000
topping w/ MPL and or #845

Should I skip the #845 and head for the MPL?

or do both?
Click to expand...

If it were me I would use the Menzerna Power Lock or MPL and skip the #845. Both are good products. I used to top different LSP's over different LSP's when I was younger and it does work for what the process is trying to accomplish and I even have an article on it but now days I'm more inclined to really do a good job of applying a single coat or apply two coats of the same product for uniform coverage and uniform appearance.

Here's the article,

Topping - Definition - How to Top also called Topping

Here's the last time I topped one product with another products, results aren't to shabby...


1972 Corvette Stingray - Extreme Makeover - Process and Products Used

1972Corvette024.jpg



NYCLR3 said:
I also have p21s paintwork cleanser, I would imagine that is close to the SF4000? Or is that an additional step? thanks.
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P21S is a light paint cleaner, SF 4000 is a fine cut polish, actually very different products but both very good products in their respective categories.


:)
 
Thanks Mike. Would you briefly explain when I should one vs. the other? Is the fine polish for more a light correction and the paint cleanser for exactly that, cleaning the paint before sealing and waxing? Can the p21s be applied by machine?
 
NYCLR3 said:
Thanks Mike. Would you briefly explain when I should one vs. the other? Is the fine polish for more a light correction and the paint cleanser for exactly that, cleaning the paint before sealing and waxing? Can the p21s be applied by machine?
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If you inspect the paint and see any type of below surface defect like swirls and scratches AND you want to remove them then use a polish, medium cut, fine cut or ultra fine cut, whatever your testing shows to be required to remove the defects to your satisfaction.

If you see surface contamination, oxidation, staining, anything topical then use a paint cleaner to remove these things from the surface by hand or machine.

Always read the directions for all product you use as directions for paint cleaners, also called pre-wax cleaners vary among manufacturers.


Good question.


:xyxthumbs:
 
I am new on this forum and I have a three month old Mercedes Benz E class, I was about to do a color correction because, even at three months and been very careful washing the car, I did notice swirls that look like spider webs...doing research I came across this thread.

My color code is 040 there are no "Cs" anywhere. Based on the information on this thread, should not have "ceramiclear" coat correct? :xyxthumbs:

If I don't have ceramiclear coat, what is the best process to remove minor swirls on my black car? keep in mind that my car is only three months old. :confused:

Thank you very much for your time and the valuable information that you've provided.
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
A BRAND NEW vehicle with a Ceramiclear finish shouldn't need any kind of correction work.
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Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Or like in Robert's scenario, when faced with deep scratches in brand new car with a sticker price in the window of over $500,000.00 to know when to walk away...
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First of all: Don't take this the personally, I might not be the best detailer around, but I do know about (and own) supercars... Nothing personal below, picture me smiling while reading this.

EVERY single car, no matter the sticker price will be shipped to North America in a container or simply exposed to the elements on the deck of a gigantic boat, even Ferrari and Lamborghini (been there, done that)... BEFORE the car arrives at the dealer, it will go trough a car wash with those sandy terry towels basically to remove all the ship/sea gunk, this is done by the transportation company, the dealer has NO saying whatsoever... Even if you hire your favorite transportation company to bring your Zonda straight from Italy, the driver will have to wipe down the car...


Also, please tell me which Mercedes cost $500k. Even the SLS model costs only $220k and can be had for $180k (been there, done that). Heck I own a Maybach 57s and it costs only $400k (And it's far superior to ANY Mercedes in ANY aspect).



I completely agree that clear coats should be thicker and also agree that car companies should think about the big picture and stop working backwards, but expect the car to be 100% swirl free from the factory floor... That's unrealistic (unless it's a Rolls-Royce, been there done that)

The only company that actually cares about future detailers is McLaren, they lay down 3 layers of clear coat on every single MP4-12c... When I asked the Plant Manager about that, he said "So the owners can polish the car several times over" (his words).


Again, not trying to call anyone out, but I'd like to stop and keep misconceptions from developing further..
 
I'm pretty sure Audi use's Ceramiclear. But can anyone completely confirm this ?

the model is a 2011 S4 and the paint code is LY9C

I just want to add that I have compounded and polished all or our Audi's BMW's and Merc's and never actually had any issues removing defects or finishing down to what I would consider extremely high standards. (in relation to pictures I have seen from professionals).

And I'm always using Menzerna polish's for the entire process or at the very least for the last step final polish.

My family only owns these 3 models of cars. Megs compounds and Menzerna meduim to finish product have always worked wonders and no car has ever been stubborn to correct.

I would also add in the fact that I'm the only one who details the cars and each car has been delivered from the dealer in excellent condition as I have them skip the PDI detail.

While I believe I know Mike's aim in typing and posting this thread, I feel that it flew over the heads of about half the people who read it and is being taken out of context. Please tell me if i'm wrong Mike, but I believe you were just posting a token of knowledge about the paint system's behavior and to be aware if you dont know the detailing history of the car because it may take extra work and time in finishing the vehicle properly if someone else hacked the car up beforehand and removed some of the hard upper surface of the paint ?

Ive read every single article Mike has written and i'm doubting this thread was made as a scare tactic to not polish cermaiclear. Its been proven over the past whoever many years that these paint systems are fantastic and polish and finish with amazing results. I know of detailers who focus there work on mainly german cars with this paint system and there work is top notch. And in all these years if they have never noticed anything out of the norm about polishing these paint systems to show car results , I dont think the enthusiast should be scared away from machine polishing there ceramicleared car.
 
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