DA Haze - SF3800 - Black Metallic - Please Help

[dlc95]

The Menzerna 2400 was only used for isolated areas, many many isolated scratches, with smaller 1-2" Rupes Nano Yellow cutting pads and not for the entire panel with larger pads. The entire panel was polished using Rupes Yellow cutting pads and Menzerna SF3800 not MC2400.

Thank you for clarifying.

Just to further be clear, did Rupes release a new cutting pad to market? I'm only familiar with their yellow foam and microfiber polishing pads..

 

[dlc95]

Sounds like you're grinding the spent solids, and abraded paint back into the paint after the lubricant has been exhausted.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I really don't understand how you're building up so much heat with very average amount of section passes? Are you polishing in direct sunlight. Is your arm speed extremely slow?

There is no need to swap to a fresh pad after every section. No way.


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[Tim711]

Thank you for clarifying.

Just to further be clear, did Rupes release a new cutting pad to market? I'm only familiar with their yellow foam and microfiber polishing pads..

I'm not sure when it was released but it's their foam finishing pad in white and what I wouldn't think would be considered a cutting pad. The step prior to the final polishing with the white foam finishing pad was with their yellow foam polishing pad.

Sounds like you're grinding the spent solids, and abraded paint back into the paint after the lubricant has been exhausted.

I have been taking an extreme approach and changing pads after every section (4 section passes on a single 2' by 2' or 2' by 2.5' area) which is probably totally not required but I'm unexperienced and wanted to control possible residue buildup causing micro marring.

I really don't understand how you're building up so much heat with very average amount of section passes? Are you polishing in direct sunlight. Is your arm speed extremely slow?

There is no need to swap to a fresh pad after every section. No way.


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Same here, I'm not sure how I am generating this amount of heat with my 6" GG and 5" Rupes pads but I'm completely unexperienced. I am working indoors at all times, garage doors closed, no light coming in. It's a strong possibility that I'm moving perhaps slower than I should be but I'm not thinking its extreme, again I'm new. I would assume I'm working at what I recall as the appropriate speed, inch per second, but again being new maybe I'm too focused on the task at hand that I'm not aware of how slow I may actually be going.

I realize it was extreme to swap to a fresh pad after every section. I was doing larger sections and was being overly overly cautious to avoid potential residue buildup causing micro marring. What should be the conservative recommendation for amount of sections to complete before swapping pads?

 

[dlc95]

Gotcha! Thanks for the reply. Just wanted to make sure.

Rupes 150 mm (6 inch) Yellow Polishing Foam Pad

 

[dlc95]

I'd honestly have to see a video of how your're going through the process. I've never actually encountered someone experiencing this set if issues, witg this type of process/technique.

 

[dlc95]

How are you priming the pad?

 

[shadwell]

Having read most of what you have written..

Seems you are using a mild combination on an assumption the paint is soft..

Seems it's not and you have overworked the polish and the pad..

I'd suggest starting over, grab some fg400, as you already have the 2500 and 3800..

Using an equivalent of a lake country orange and fg 400 do a test spot with your improved lighting , 2passes with load, 2reduced load and 2 almost no load. Use a fresh MF with no real load and reset to clean and inspect with your scan grip..use a tape line to make clear what is going on..

Ensure to clean your pads on the fly and swap out each panel.. if the da is getting hot on it's backing plate, pop it infront of a fan after cleaning the pad on the fly while you wipe the panel etc..

I have done a few folds and thy have been either hard or medium I haven't yet had one that's soft..
Scratch sensitive yes but soft no..

Hope any of that helps.

 

[Tim711]

Gotcha! Thanks for the reply. Just wanted to make sure.

Rupes 150 mm (6 inch) Yellow Polishing Foam Pad

Yes, exactly. Then for the final polishing step I used SF3800 again but with the Rupes 150mm White Finishing Foam Pad.
Rupes 150 mm (6 inch) White Finishing Foam Pad

How are you priming the pad?

I'm priming the entire face and sides of the pad like Mike Phillips demonstrates in his excellent article "how to prime a foam pad with when using a DA polisher". I was using at least 3 dime sized drops of product or possibly slightly larger.

Having read most of what you have written..

Seems you are using a mild combination on an assumption the paint is soft..

Seems it's not and you have overworked the polish and the pad..

I'd suggest starting over, grab some fg400, as you already have the 2500 and 3800..

Using an equivalent of a lake country orange and fg 400 do a test spot with your improved lighting , 2passes with load, 2reduced load and 2 almost no load. Use a fresh MF with no real load and reset to clean and inspect with your scan grip..use a tape line to make clear what is going on..

Ensure to clean your pads on the fly and swap out each panel.. if the da is getting hot on it's backing plate, pop it infront of a fan after cleaning the pad on the fly while you wipe the panel etc..

I have done a few folds and thy have been either hard or medium I haven't yet had one that's soft..
Scratch sensitive yes but soft no..

Hope any of that helps.

I appreciate your suggestions but I still feel that the paint may be soft. Another reason I feel the paint may be soft is because I used a Nanoskin Autoscrub Speedy Prep FINE Grade Sponge on a couple of spots along the rocker panels and it marred the paint VERY easily with the slightest bit of contact. I have a half full 8oz bottle of FG400 but that level of aggressiveness seems like it would be too extreme for the possibility of it being soft and the paint is brand new with rids but I'm not sure it needs this degree of correction.

I do like your idea of putting the DA in front of a fan after cleaning the pad but I would like to determine the reason for my excessive heat first before causing any possible damage to the clear coat. I am starting to think that it was too slow of movement with the combination of a large working area. Would too much polish cause excessive heat buildup?

LawrenceSA posted a thread of a detail correction that he performed on the EXACT same car which was also brand new; Deep Black Pearl Golf 7 .: R. My paint is not this badly damaged and he used Menzerna PF2500/ LC Tangerine Hydrotech Pad using the Flex 3401 VRG.

One thing to note is that the MK7 R comes from their German plants while the MK7 Golf & GTI are made in Mexico. May explain for difference between MK7 models in regards to soft or hard paint.

 

[Desertnate]

I appreciate your suggestions but I still feel that the paint may be soft. Another reason I feel the paint may be soft is because I used a Nanoskin Autoscrub Speedy Prep FINE Grade Sponge on a couple of spots along the rocker panels and it marred the paint VERY easily with the slightest bit of contact. I have a half full 8oz bottle of FG400 but that level of aggressiveness seems like it would be too extreme for the possibility of it being soft and the paint is brand new with rids but I'm not sure it needs this degree of correction.

Typically when people are talking about hard vs. soft paint it is in relation to how easy it is to correct, not how easy it is to marr. Mike Phillips has a great article on the topic here where he addresses "scratch sensitive paints" which specifically talks about very hard paint scratching easily AND being hard to correct. My black MK6 GTI is a perfect example. The paint is very hard and yet I must be very careful with washing and maintenance. Polishing takes a more aggressive product than I'd used on softer paints like what is found on most Japanese cars.

I used the same Nanoskin pad on my GTI once and it was a terrible experience. I tried several different lubes and Nanoskin Glide at various dilutions. No matter what I tried it marred my paint pretty badly and since the VW paint is so hard, it then took some considerable time to get it all out. I've used traditional clay ever since.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Would too much polish cause excessive heat buildup?

Without a doubt it can cause heat build-up. The idea of putting a pad next to a fan is something that is absolutely not needed. You're using an 8mm free spinning DA, not a forced rotation or long throw polisher, so the pad should not heat up THAT much. Try not priming the pad, add four drops of polish and use moderate pressure for the first couple passes, the lighten up the pressure.

 

[2pennies]

Without a doubt it can cause heat build-up. The idea of putting a pad next to a fan is something that is absolutely not needed. You're using an 8mm free spinning DA, not a forced rotation or long throw polisher, so the pad should not heat up THAT much. Try not priming the pad, add four drops of polish and use moderate pressure for the first couple passes, the lighten up the pressure.

Can it really??

 

[DaveT435]

If you're close to Richy, he's a master and I'm sure would help you figure it out...

 

[BudgetPlan1]

Can it really??

Did for me starting out (GG6). Too much product would heat up the LC Flat pad...would start to collapse in the center and Velcro on backing plate and pad would be smoking when I pulled pad off plate.

When it got really hot, occasionally a pad would launch.

With GG6 and any variety of LC Foam pads I could never really get 3800 to do much of anything.

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[lawrenceSA]

I have corrected a lot of VW's and none were what I consider 'soft'... but that doesn't rule out the possibility it could be.

My guess is that you are moving too slowly (arm speed) when doing your passes, so even though it is less than the traditional '6' passes most recommend, the actual time that the polish is being worked against the paint may be too long, and as already mentioned by dlc95 you are probably causing the lubrication to dry out, and grinding the polish residue and abraded paint back into the finish.

I think this is even more likely to be the case given that a) you have so much heat in your pads and b) you were getting Menz to dust.

I'm going to go against the grain with this suggestion.

Take a clean dry pad - something equivalent to a Lake country white or orange pad (a true soft finishing pad is sometimes too soft on harder paint and lands up contouring over the shape of the abrasive instead of pushing it into the paint)

Grab a finishing polish (your least aggressive product on hand / 3800 I think?)

Place 8 to 10 small pea (or smaller) sized drops over the face of the pad. Don't rub it in to 'prime the pad'. I have found that the traditional method of priming a pad when working with oily Menz polishes actually 'overloads' the pad to some degree, and causes issues with excessive heat build up, and is generally just not great to work with.

Now take polisher and gently pat the polish onto the paint, over an area equal to the size of 3 of your pads x 3 of your pads (so if you are using 5" pads, tap out a square 15" x 15").

Essentially the initial 8 to 10 spots of polish act as both a primer for the pad and your initial working product.

Now begin making your overlapping, cross hatch passes over the area, while keeping your arm speed at 1,5" to 2" per second. This should allow you to get 6 passes in, allowing the abrasives to break down, but not allow the lubricants to dry out.

Spray with your Prep/Eraser and let it sit a second to help break down the polishing oils, and then wipe with a quality MF towel with little to no pressure. Inspect your results. You should not see any hazing (but may still see deeper defects). If that is the case, then at least you have sorted out the 'finishing' aspect, and could then use the same process to step up the aggressiveness to get to the deeper damage, should you want to).

Clean the pad 'on the fly' with a MF towel (Mike has a good video/article about it on here)

Now add only 3 pea sized drops and repeat on the next section.

Then, as far as your paint readings go.... they are somewhat surprising to me... Again there are no 'rules' but what I have observed of the multitude of VW's I have done is roughly the following:

Brand new - around 150µ to 170µ
Almost all of the ones I have to correct have been pretty hammered and are generally older and most have the tell tale body shop buffer trails - paint readings here are usually in the 100µ to 130µ range
When I start picking up readings in the 90µ to 100µ range, I proceed with caution and try stick to medium cut or finishing polishes and try avoid compounds
in the 80µ to 90µ range, definitely only a finishing polish or something like Essence or a more traditional AIO
80µ and below is THIN and I avoid correction

I just detailed a Reflex Silver Golf 6 Gti this past weekend and found a spot where the clear had been struck through at 72µ

 

[fightnews]

Hi,

I am performing my first paint correction on >my< brand NEW car. It's a 2017 VW Golf R in BLACK metallic, so the last thing I want to do is make a mistake.

I'm a notice and I have been taking my time with the whole project as I want to learn as much as I can along the way. I have read many articles and watched many how to videos over many years but I have never performed a paint correction. This was an unexpected purchase and I had to jump right into the project with what knowledge I have gathered so far.

I did work on a test spot first to determine what combination would work best.

The vehicle is NEW and was delivered with a car cover, that I was allowed to remove. There is however a lot a marring / light scratches around the entire car, probably from the cover flapping in the wind and the car exchanging hands. The overall paint did not seem too bad at FIRST with the lighting I had at the time, it just appeared to have many small defects. I'm afraid to remove too much clear coat as I am not sure if the paint is soft. From my lack of knowledge, it appears as though the paint is on the softer side as I am able to remove most of defects / light scratches using a Rupes Yellow cutting pad with Menzerna Super Finish Plus SF3800, using my Rupes iBrid Nano on a speed of 3.75-4 and completing about 6-12 section passes. For deeper scratches I stepped up to yellow pads with Menzerna Medium Cut Polish MC2400.

Since I'm afraid to make a mistake on >my< BLACK car and the paint appearing to be soft I decided to try a combo that would be the least aggressive. This may not be the conventional or quickest method to correct the paint but I decided to remove the bulk of the minor defects using 5" Rupes White polishing pads with SF3800, using my 6" GG DA on a speed of 5, 4 section passes. My thought being that the car didn't have heavy swirls but rather small defects and rids. I did this rather than a using a cutting compound with a cutting pad as the paint to me seems soft and I didn't want to get aggressive. I then followed this by surigically removing the small defects using the Rupes Nano and yellow pads with SF3800 or MC2400 on a speed of 3.75-4. For the final polishing step I used 5" Rupes White pads and SF3800, using my GG DA on a speed of 4.5, 4 section passes. These combinations / steps on my test spot seemed to remove the majority of the defects and leave a perfect finish with the lighting I used at the time of my test spot, which were generic brand PAR38 5000K Cree COB LED lights.

However, I recently purchased better lighting; SCANGRIP Sunmatch 2, I-Match 2, and Matchpen lights. These lights are seriously amazing! So good that now I am able to see many more light scratches and rids that I wasn't able to see the first time.

I decided to go back to the hood and roof to remove more of these defects that were left behind. I went back with the Nano, yellow pads, MC2400 and SF3800 to surgically remove more defects. This time instead of going straight to the final polishing step, I decided to add a further step by using 5" Yellow cutting pads with the GG on a speed of 5, 4 section passes. I added this step thinking this may help remove more of what I may have missed with the Nano and hazing from the MC2400. I followed this with the final polishing step but at a speed of 4 instead of 4.5, 4 section passes.

When I was removing the polish after the final polishing step, I noticed a haze on the roof using my I-Match headlamp which was distorting the light at angles as if there is a slight haze / swirls left. The haze is very minor and was difficult to catch at first, even with the Scangrip lighting, but it's there and it's bugging me a lot.

I am confused to what this may be a result from? Could it possibly be from; the added step of using the 5" yellow cutting pads and the paint being soft before proceeding to the final polishing step or something to do with the final polishing step? I am working on about 2' by 2' sections and sometimes 2' by 2.5'.

I have been working on the vehicle for several months as it is difficult as a beginner and being forced to jump right in. I have been working on the vehicle for far too long now, this is my daily driver after all, but I am very persistent to get the paint correction to perfection and be able to maintain it from this point forward. I would also like to figure this out to know what combo is best for future maintenance polishes.

I am not sure at this point what the problem is and what would be best to try next to polish the paint to perfection without leaving a haze.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am running out of time for my own trial and error as it is getting late in the year and I still have the entire car to finish.

I don't mind purchasing new tools or products if it would help. Would it be a good idea to invest into a nice Rupes LHR 21 MKII, LHR 15 MKII, and/or LHR 75E to speed up my project, rather than using my 6" and 3" GG, as these are planned future purchases anyways?

Thank you for your help,
Tim

Who recommended doing 12 passes on a section? I've never read anyone anywhere recommending more then 6-8 and 8 is max. Most people don't even do that many

 

[dlc95]

Yes, exactly. Then for the final polishing step I used SF3800 again but with the Rupes 150mm White Finishing Foam Pad.
Rupes 150 mm (6 inch) White Finishing Foam Pad



I'm priming the entire face and sides of the pad like Mike Phillips demonstrates in his excellent article "how to prime a foam pad with when using a DA polisher". I was using at least 3 dime sized drops of product or possibly slightly larger.

That's probably more polish than required.

With Menzerna, I never need to manually prime my pads. I start with four small peas sized drops do my first section, and reload with two or three drops, depending on the size of my section.

While the abrasive is one of the more important factors in polishing paint, the pad material itself needs to interact with the paint. If the pad wasn't important, we'd all be using one type of pad to do everything from heavy cutting to waxing. Too much product is going to remove the impact of the pad in the process, leaving undesirable results - in most cases.

Also consider Menzerna are super concentrated, and designed for minimal quantities to be used.

When new, I've had Namoskin Sponges mar medium GM paint. Something like 3500 would have no problem cleaning that up. In my case I used M205 om a blue B&S polishing pad.

 

[Desertnate]

Who recommended doing 12 passes on a section? I've never read anyone anywhere recommending more then 6-8 and 8 is max. Most people don't even do that many

The number of passes depends on the type of abrasives in the polish, the type of correction being done, the paint, and many other variables. After doing 6~8 passes I could see easily see doing a couple more on a slower speed with light or no pressure on the pad when using a polish with diminishing abrasives. Those final passes would really surface shine.

Lawrence has detailed out more VW's for customers than probably most everyone else on AG combined with stunning results. I count heavily on his advice when working on my GTI.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

There is no set amount of section passes. Polishes react differently to different environments as well as the size of the section being worked. Sometimes diminishing abrasives only need 4 section passes and sometimes you can do 6-8. Work it until you feel the lubricants haven't been completely dried out.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

To Tim,

I just read your Private Message, sorry for the late reply back here to your thread but today (Wednesday, August 16th), is the first day I'm back in the office and behind a computer to play catch-up since teaching the Wisconsin Roadshow Class.


Pictures and Comments from the Wisconsin Roadshow Class - 2017


I've quoted Shadwell below and I'll add my comments...

Having read most of what you have written..

Seems you are using a mild combination on an assumption the paint is soft..

Seems it's not and you have overworked the polish and the pad..

The above observations are what I'm also thinking to be the case.

I'd suggest starting over, grab some fg400, as you already have the 2500 and 3800..

I agree.

If you're a Menzerna guy then you want some FG400 in your arsenal just to round it out. FG400 is a great compound and in my opinion sits on the top shelf with other top shelf brands for compounds as it uses top notch abrasive technology.

Using an equivalent of a lake country orange and fg 400 do a test spot with your improved lighting , 2passes with load, 2reduced load and 2 almost no load.

Use a fresh MF with no real load and reset to clean and inspect with your scan grip.. use a tape line to make clear what is going on..

I agree with the above except I would probably do 4 passes with load followed with 2 medium pressure section passes followed by 2 light section passes, just a little more than the weight of the tool. All on the highest speed setting.


I would also do what I call Troubleshooting.

That is take a horizontal panel that you have buffed and has the visual imperfection and place a tape line down the middle of an affected area and then ONLY buff on one side of the tape line. After making the above 6-8 section passes wipe off the residue and inspect.

The paint will either look better and even great or the same or possibly worse.

If the paint is hard an not soft then with the FG400 and a clean foam cutting pad you should see a dramatic before and after difference with the difference being the side you buff on looking clear and defect free.

IF the paint now looks micro-marred to hell then you probably do in fact have very soft paint and the next thing I would try would be a great one-step cleaner/wax with either a foam polishing pad or a form finishing pad and cheat your way to the finish line.

See this article,

How to avoid haze and scratching when working on soft paint?



Then update this thread with what you're seeing.