Duped by local "detailer", now need to make it right

[master detailer]

lol you will see what I am saying . for the money you are going to spend you will be just like the guy that did the bad job to start with. good luck.

 

[cutter]

I say go for DIY...you will find it very satisfying standing back and looking at the job you have done....As for DA's, I have a Cyclo5 and the Flex 3401 VRG. The Cyclo is very user friendly and the Flex takes some getting used to. I hope you choose to go DIY and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

 

[Wes8398]

lol you will see what I am saying . for the money you are going to spend you will be just like the guy that did the bad job to start with. good luck.

Huh ... why are you even on this forum if you're so against DIYing? It seems that you're hugely outnumbered when it comes to your opinion on the subject (see: you're the only person with such an opinion out of the 10+ people that have responded in this thread). All the before/after pictures that are posted around this forum seem to prove you dead wrong, and I'm sure mine will do the same once I get the job done.
I've been a member of various online forums and communities for a long, long time and I know there's always people like you trolling around, being as negative as possible, demeaning at every chance they get, etc. It's tiring. But at least it seems that you're just a prick....I mean needle.... in the haystack of great people around here.


Just so my last post doesn't get lost in the BS:

Just got done a lengthy post and lost it... Argh! The gist of it was:



Thanks for the info...



The kits I'm interested in hearing your opinions and comparisons on:



Meg's - Meguiars Ultra Polish Kit with 5.5 Inch Pads



Meg's - Meguiars DA Microfiber Correction System 6 Inch Starter Kit



Optimum - Optimum Detailing Kit



Menzerna - Menzerna Maximum Shine KitFree Bonus!



Wolfgang - Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover Kit 3.0





I'll be taking all your advice and getting the Griot's polisher as well.

Thanks guys!

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Regarding what Master Detailer said, be aware there will likely be some learning curve and frustration, so be prepared for a few more threads here before you're proficient.

As far as those kits, they will probably all work, but my comments would be that the 6" MF DA is generally recommended for the Flex, for your GG 6" the 5" MF DA is what is recommended, AFAIK. Also, the Optimum kit is nice, but they have new spray polishes which you might like even better.

The Menzerna kit has the older-tech abrasives, for your hard clear you will want the Menzernas for the ceramic clears. Also, the Menz, Optimum, and Wolfgang kits have 6.5" pads; most people here will tell you to stick with 5.5" pads. Myself and others find that the limitations imposed on you by kits outweigh any bundle savings and we usually like to pick out our own "kit" contents.

 

[Kristopher1129]

Just got done a lengthy post and lost it... Argh! The gist of it was:

Thanks for the info...

The kits I'm interested in hearing your opinions and comparisons on:

Meg's - Meguiars Ultra Polish Kit with 5.5 Inch Pads

Meg's - Meguiars DA Microfiber Correction System 6 Inch Starter Kit

Optimum - Optimum Detailing Kit

Menzerna - Menzerna Maximum Shine KitFree Bonus!

Wolfgang - Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover Kit 3.0


I'll be taking all your advice and getting the Griot's polisher as well.
Thanks guys!

My vote is for the first kit. The Megs 105/205 combo with 5.5" discs will knock that job out with ease. I'm not saying the other kits aren't good enough...I'm just speaking from my experience.

I've used the 5.5" discs on a ton of jobs. I've also used 105/205 combo many times. It's very rare when the orange pad and 105 don't knock out swirls in black. There has been a couple times when I busted out the wool pad and some 105 with my Makita...but I don't think you'll be needing to do that.

Can't go wrong with kit #1.

Also, I don't know what Master Detailer is talking about. You're not gonna spend no $1000 fixing your paint, ha. That's ridiculous. Buy the Griots, buy whatever kit you choose..and you've got yourself the tools, and product to do it ten times over again if need be. You don't NEED every tool or piece of equipment in the book to do one job.

I think Master is looking at it from the business side of things. He may be looking at this situation and wondering "why would they teach him to do it himself and take money away from a professional detailer?". My point of view is this...Every customer I have, doesn't go on detailing forums, or know the first thing about detailing. So, if someone is already here, and willing to learn...then I don't see why we can't help. Either way, they're probably going to do it themselves anyways if they've gone this far.

DIY, and hell...maybe you're friends will want it done too. Money in your pocket. I don't look at it as taking money away from a detailer. I look at it as potentially teaching another detailer the ropes. I'm fine that. I've got plenty of customers. We can't do them all! :dblthumb2:

 

[kronos]

Huh ... why are you even on this forum if you're so against DIYing? It seems that you're hugely outnumbered when it comes to your opinion on the subject (see: you're the only person with such an opinion out of the 10+ people that have responded in this thread). All the before/after pictures that are posted around this forum seem to prove you dead wrong, and I'm sure mine will do the same once I get the job done.
I've been a member of various online forums and communities for a long, long time and I know there's always people like you trolling around, being as negative as possible, demeaning at every chance they get, etc. It's tiring. But at least it seems that you're just a prick....I mean needle.... in the haystack of great people around here.


Just so my last post doesn't get lost in the BS:

I'm not trying to stick up for "master detailer", but I think he's trying to warn you that $300 is merely an entry expense for many of us here. Detailing can become very addictive and pretty soon, you're going to want to buy more and more supplies to make your car shine as best as you can possibly make it.

Originally, I had a similar dilemma as you. My car had quite a bit of road rash so I came up with 3 choices, pay a detailer to buff my car, have it repainted or buy the supplies and buff it myself. I figured a detailer would cost $300 for a good job (with a recurring $150 maintenance polish/detail every 6 months), a repaint $1,500 for a decent job, or try it myself (for what I thought would be much less). I have since spent over $2k in detailing related products. That is what I believe he is trying to warn you about. The addiction.

 

[Slate G8 GT]

I'd go with the Meg's MF system but the 5.5 inch kit for a couple reasons. First the griots comes with a 6 inch backing plate so if you get the 5.5 kit you'll have 2 backing plates and be a little ahead of the gamerops:, also as others have said the 5.5 will correct easier a plus with the harder GM paint.

I had never used any kind of polisher on paint before and picked up the griots and MF system and got great results the first time. As I said before I haven't had any experience with anything else but I've heard there is a learning curve with 105 so that's why I was swayed to the MF system.

+1 on the addicting part though

 

[Wes8398]

I can appreciate what you guys are trying to do for "master detailer" but my opinion still remains. All of you have been much more helpful then his drivel.

I can see the addiction thing, much like when I started DIYing mechanical modifications on my cars... Also known as "mod hell". lol

Slate - good to hear from someone who was in my shoes not long ago and had success with those products.

 

[StoneRaizer]

I can't comment on many of the popular recommendations here (Griot's polisher, 105/205 and Meg's MF System) since I haven't used them, but I can recommend some other products that may be overlooked:

- A good short handle, long hair wheel/tire brush. I got mine from a distributor in British Columbia but due to AutoGeek rules I can't mention their name. I prefer the short handle because it allows for more control in tighter spaces.

- Optimum Power Clean. This stuff is the definition of "all purpose" cleaner. Use it full strength on wheels and tires or dilute it 3:1 to clean vinyl and leather on the interior. A gallon is expensive but it's so versatile that you'll be reaching for it constantly.

- Meguiar's Ultimate Protectant. A very underrated product and I'm not sure why. I love it for protecting exterior plastic trim because of how it darkens the trim and isn't greasy or slippery. When applied properly it shouldn't rinse off in the rain and should last a few weeks.

- Invisible Glass. The best glass cleaner on the market and you can buy it at Walmart for $7.99. I guarantee you'll never touch Windex again.

- Folex. Use it for spot cleaning carpets. I found my bottle at Canadian Tire in the interior cleaning aisle, not in the automotive section. Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to use it to remove salt stains yet. :help:

I'd recommend some interior and tire dressings but everyone seems to prefer a different look. Some dressings have a very high gloss shine, others satin, others matte. If you could tell us what your preference is I'm sure the community could provide you with some suggestions.

 

[Wes8398]

Thanks for the suggestions StoneRaiser!

Just an update after meeting with Greg, the guy that "detailed" it a few weeks ago. I told him that the results I got from him were far less than what I was asking for, and I stressed to him that when I'd brought the car by BEFORE he did the job I'd told him that I wanted the swirls, etc taken out and that I'd be willing to pay him more than the $200 gift certificate if that was necessary to do so. I reminded him that he said he'd be able to do the job to my satisfaction for the amount of the GC (this included an interior detail and HVAC ozonator treatment as well). He remembered this conversation and didn't argue anything.
He was adamant that he wanted the car back to "make it right" (at no cost), but before I agreed to that I asked him what products and tools he uses. He brought me into the shop and showed me an orbital buffer (big steering wheel type) and some 3M swirl remover. I looked at him, waiting for more. There was no more. He said that's what he used and what he always uses for swirl removal, then added that after that he puts a sealant on with the same buffer.
It became very apparent that although he has some industry knowledge, his business model is definitely geared around high throughput. His idea of an exterior detail is 2-3 hours and get 'em out and the next one in. Which, for his prices, might make a lot of people happy. Unfortunately, not me. I asked him if he ever uses any other tools or products and he brought out a DeWalt grinder/polisher (straight rotary, not DA) and said that sometimes he'll "high speed" a car if the customer asks for it, but for that he charges more and it also comes with it's risks.
In the end I asked him if he'd do my wife's car rather than try to make mine right, and he agreed to that. Her car is a Mazda3 highway commuter that sees about 2-3,000 kilometers a month and she'll be more than happy with the results that he will give her. So, that's all good. Now I'm going to put my car's finish in my own hands and if it's not satisfactory after I do it, then I'll only have myself to blame; which is a lot better in my mind than placing the blame on someone or something out of your control.

I haven't disregarded anybody's suggestions here, but I feel like I'm leaning towards Meg's products for the polish. I'm having a hard time deciding between the DA microfiber system or the 105, 205/305 method though. I'm a little leery that the microfiber system might not have the cut that I need for my paint's condition, but after watching the reveal of the DA microfiber system video from Autogeek, I'm astounded at the results they got on their test vehicle. I dunno. I take a long time to make decisions, so it's all good. lol

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Kristopher1129]

Thanks for the suggestions StoneRaiser!

Just an update after meeting with Greg, the guy that "detailed" it a few weeks ago. I told him that the results I got from him were far less than what I was asking for, and I stressed to him that when I'd brought the car by BEFORE he did the job I'd told him that I wanted the swirls, etc taken out and that I'd be willing to pay him more than the $200 gift certificate if that was necessary to do so. I reminded him that he said he'd be able to do the job to my satisfaction for the amount of the GC (this included an interior detail and HVAC ozonator treatment as well). He remembered this conversation and didn't argue anything.
He was adamant that he wanted the car back to "make it right" (at no cost), but before I agreed to that I asked him what products and tools he uses. He brought me into the shop and showed me an orbital buffer (big steering wheel type) and some 3M swirl remover. I looked at him, waiting for more. There was no more. He said that's what he used and what he always uses for swirl removal, then added that after that he puts a sealant on with the same buffer.
It became very apparent that although he has some industry knowledge, his business model is definitely geared around high throughput. His idea of an exterior detail is 2-3 hours and get 'em out and the next one in. Which, for his prices, might make a lot of people happy. Unfortunately, not me. I asked him if he ever uses any other tools or products and he brought out a DeWalt grinder/polisher (straight rotary, not DA) and said that sometimes he'll "high speed" a car if the customer asks for it, but for that he charges more and it also comes with it's risks.
In the end I asked him if he'd do my wife's car rather than try to make mine right, and he agreed to that. Her car is a Mazda3 highway commuter that sees about 2-3,000 kilometers a month and she'll be more than happy with the results that he will give her. So, that's all good. Now I'm going to put my car's finish in my own hands and if it's not satisfactory after I do it, then I'll only have myself to blame; which is a lot better in my mind than placing the blame on someone or something out of your control.

I haven't disregarded anybody's suggestions here, but I feel like I'm leaning towards Meg's products for the polish. I'm having a hard time deciding between the DA microfiber system or the 105, 205/305 method though. I'm a little leery that the microfiber system might not have the cut that I need for my paint's condition, but after watching the reveal of the DA microfiber system video from Autogeek, I'm astounded at the results they got on their test vehicle. I dunno. I take a long time to make decisions, so it's all good. lol

Thanks again everyone.

Honestly, being a detailer....it sounds like that guy has no clue what he's really doing. I wouldn't have brought another vehicle to him at all. If he's completely clueless on how to correct paint...he's more than likely clueless on how to do many other things.

That being said...I've used both the MF system, and the 105/205 combo. If I had to choose one method to correct paint for the rest of my life....I would use 105/205.

Now this doesn't mean I wouldn't use the MF pads. I like the MF pads quite a bit. Yes, they are a bit more work IMO as far as re-fluffing them as you go. I think they cut nicely.

BUT, the MF compound and finish wax...I don't really care for all that much. I think 105 and 205 do a better job, and also leave you with the option to lay down a nice sealant in the end. Where as the Finish wax is meant to be both a polish and polymer based wax.

IMO, 105 finishes down better than the MF compound which leaves quite a bit of haze. I also prefer the finish of 205 over the Finish Wax. I've tried both, and I think 105/205 combo is dominant when it comes to the finished product. But, that's just me and my little two cents! :dblthumb2:

 

[Setec Astronomy]

LOL, sounds like the typical "detailer", who's been doing the same thing forever. He learned how to "detail" the first week on the job and has been doing it at the same level ever since. I remember a thread on another forum where someone was talking about a dealer "detailer" who had 15 years experience, and the comment was that doing the same thing you learned in a week over and over for 15 years isn't 15 years of experience, it's one week of experience over and over. (boy I really botched that quote)

In almost every industry things change and progress and you have to keep abreast of current technology. We may have been in a period of rapid change in the detailing world, but I can tell you that since I started coming to forums in 2004...well, there was ONE DA polisher you could get (original PC), no forced rotation, no MF pads, no SMAT/non-diminishing compounds, no WOWA, no silicium/ceramic coatings (CQuartz, GTechniq, etc.).

Sorry I'm rambling, but your guy is stuck in 1995, which is better than being stuck in 1980 with a wool pad on a rotary, but not like being stuck in 2004 or being current. Not unusual, but not the guy you want detailing your car...although he should be harmless on your wife's car, unless he pulls out the "high-speed" to try and impress you with what he can do.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just an update after meeting with Greg, the guy that "detailed" it a few weeks ago. I told him that the results I got from him were far less than what I was asking for, and I stressed to him that when I'd brought the car by BEFORE he did the job I'd told him that I wanted the swirls, etc taken out and that I'd be willing to pay him more than the $200 gift certificate if that was necessary to do so.

Way to take initiative.

In a similar fashion, over the years I've counseled people getting paint jobs to pony up to the plate and tell the painter they will pay more for more paint, especially if they want it sanded and buffed. The thing is more paint usually means,

Time in the booth
More material
More labor

This means more money. If you want it, be willing to pay for it.

I reminded him that he said he'd be able to do the job to my satisfaction for the amount of the GC (this included an interior detail and HVAC ozonator treatment as well). He remembered this conversation and didn't argue anything.

Commendable on his part.

He was adamant that he wanted the car back to "make it right" (at no cost), but before I agreed to that I asked him what products and tools he uses.

Wow! Again, for years when people have asked me how to tell if a detailer knows what he's doing I tell them to ask them what they use, ask them to show their pads, products and tools, this is a pretty good indicator of what they know and what kind of work they do.

When I called on body shops, detail shops and dealerships as a Trainer for Meguiar's, the first thing I would do when I walked into any shop was to look around and see what is being used?

What types of pads are on the buffers
What kind of buffers
What kind or compounds, polishes and waxes
Even what was in the garbage cans because that will indicate what product they're going through...

All to often what I saw was only wool pads on rotary buffers and cheap chemicals and the work being turned out was swirl city.

He brought me into the shop and showed me an orbital buffer (big steering wheel type) and some 3M swirl remover. I looked at him, waiting for more. There was no more. He said that's what he used and what he always uses for swirl removal, then added that after that he puts a sealant on with the same buffer.

Yep... it's either rotary buffers with wool pads or Traditional Orbital Buffer for everything....

Maybe do him a favor and introduce him to Autogeek Online.

We won't talk down to him or demean him in any way, we'll do our best to help bring him up the road a little further...

Here's an article on this very topic, send him the link...


The Traditional Orbital Buffer aka The Wax Spreader

It became very apparent that although he has some industry knowledge, his business model is definitely geared around high throughput. His idea of an exterior detail is 2-3 hours and get 'em out and the next one in. Which, for his prices, might make a lot of people happy. Unfortunately, not me. I asked him if he ever uses any other tools or products and he brought out a DeWalt grinder/polisher (straight rotary, not DA) and said that sometimes he'll "high speed" a car if the customer asks for it, but for that he charges more and it also comes with it's risks.

What he's doing is the norm for our industry,

• Production Detailing
• Show Car Detailing

Here's the deal, people only know what they know and a lot of "Detailers" are self-taught. I would never cut anyone down for being self-taught as that's how most of us tend to start out.

Luckily there are discussion forums where knowledge is shared freely and detailing classes for those that really want to flatten out their learning curve.

Of course with discussion forums, the person has to first get online and that can be a stumbling block for some...

I always way, the detailers that know the most are the detailers that hang out on discussion forums like AGO because this is where the action is... this is where you learn about new products and procedures... it's amazing how many new products are continually entering the market and then tips, tweaks and techniques to get the best results from these products shared by forum members...

You just can't get this kind of education in the reals world nor all by yourself...

In the end I asked him if he'd do my wife's car rather than try to make mine right, and he agreed to that. Her car is a Mazda3 highway commuter that sees about 2-3,000 kilometers a month and she'll be more than happy with the results that he will give her. So, that's all good. Now I'm going to put my car's finish in my own hands and if it's not satisfactory after I do it, then I'll only have myself to blame; which is a lot better in my mind than placing the blame on someone or something out of your control.

Love your attitude... sets an example for others... :xyxthumbs:

I haven't disregarded anybody's suggestions here, but I feel like I'm leaning towards Meg's products for the polish. I'm having a hard time deciding between the DA microfiber system or the 105, 205/305 method though. I'm a little leery that the microfiber system might not have the cut that I need for my paint's condition, but after watching the reveal of the DA microfiber system video from Autogeek, I'm astounded at the results they got on their test vehicle. I dunno. I take a long time to make decisions, so it's all good. lol

Thanks again everyone.

The Meguiar's Microfiber DA Correction System is specifically targeted towards factory paint. It's a two step system for production detailing. You can get phenomenal results from it and you can also ADD an extra step or two to get even better results.

For example, use the system and then finish out with Menzerna PO85RD with a soft foam finishing pad on a DA


Looking forward to your future success story and the pictures that will come with it...

:bowdown:

 

[slickooz]

It's funny how you guys started talking about dealership work. I'm working at Lexus and this guy who has 15 years experience told me to just bring the car into the car wash to get rid of swirls.


And he gets paid a lot more then me because he is a certified detailer from Lexus.

So his 15 years of experience can't even match up to my less then one year being here on AG.

 

[Wes8398]

Well, to save starting another thread, I thought I'd post back with my decision progress so far. I'm going with Meg's 105 and 205, then Menz PO85RD. The next step(s) are still in the air. From what I've read around here a lot of people suggest the Pinnacle Signature Series II wax, but man, that stuff's expensive!! Think Meg's #26 wax would be comparable @ a fraction of the cost? If I can get the wax price down, I might even look for an inexpensive sealant to put down before the wax...

Aside from those things, the rest of my list so far consists of the Griot's DA, a smaller 5" backing plate, 5.5" pads (suggestions on which ones? I was thinking CCS in orange, grey, and blue...not sure how many though), and microfiber towels.
If anyone can suggest any areas where I might save a few bucks getting a different product that performs just as well, please chime in.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

You need some white pads in there for the 205. You might be able to skip the 205 if you switched to PO106FF...just an idea...wait for some hard-core 105 users to jump in on that one, but you will definitely need some white pads, consided skipping one of the finishing pads (black or blue) for white.

If the SSII wax is too much, you might try the Max Wax...26 is decent but if you don't have that already, think about Collinite 845, should cost about the same as #26, easier to work with (not that #26 is hard) and will last longer. Goes a long way, too.

 

[StoneRaizer]

Well, to save starting another thread, I thought I'd post back with my decision progress so far. I'm going with Meg's 105 and 205, then Menz PO85RD. The next step(s) are still in the air. From what I've read around here a lot of people suggest the Pinnacle Signature Series II wax, but man, that stuff's expensive!! Think Meg's #26 wax would be comparable @ a fraction of the cost? If I can get the wax price down, I might even look for an inexpensive sealant to put down before the wax...

Aside from those things, the rest of my list so far consists of the Griot's DA, a smaller 5" backing plate, 5.5" pads (suggestions on which ones? I was thinking CCS in orange, grey, and blue...not sure how many though), and microfiber towels.
If anyone can suggest any areas where I might save a few bucks getting a different product that performs just as well, please chime in.

For a wax, go with Collinite #845. It looks great, goes on easy and it's practically indestructible. Oh, it's also only $14.99

Pads - say no to CCS. The 5.5" Flat pads are much better because you have more surface area. More foam touching the paint = faster correction. To start, go with 3 orange (for compounding), 3 white (polishing), 2 gray (finish polish/AIOs), 2 blue (wax/sealant).

Instead of the Menzerna, what about Optimum PoliSeal? I use it after compounding and polishing to give some added gloss. It also has some sealant so it adds a bit of protection as well. It's also approximately half the price of the Menzerna.

For cleaning your pads, get yourself one of these: Foam Pad Conditioning Brush cleans and reconditions foam and wool pads on the buffer. remove excess caked wax and polish from buffing pads.

I'd also recommend getting a 4" backing plate and 4" pads for polishing smaller areas like the bumper and pillars. Use the same colours as your 5.5" pads. Unfortunately I think you'll have to go with CCS since I don't think they make Flat 4" pads. I haven't used the 4" HydroTech pads so I don't want to recommend something I haven't personally used.

Oh, one more thing - get some blue 3M painter's tape for masking off plastic trim. 10 minutes of masking will save you hours of trying to remove polish out of cracks with a toothbrush or QTip. You can buy this at Walmart, Home Depot or Canadian Tire.

 

[Wes8398]

Much appreciated suggestions!
Stone - for my own knowledge, how come you advise against the CCS pads? Also, have you used this combination with Collinite/Optimum and found it gave the same (or better) results as Menz/PSSII? I love the idea of savin' a few bucks as long as it's not at the cost of performance.

Thanks again.

 

[StoneRaizer]

On a dual action polisher, you want as much foam touching the paint as possible. CCS pads have little dimples which hold polish inside of the pad. According to Lake Country's website:

Benefits:

SLOW RATE OF POLISH ABSORBTION - Enhances polish performance.

Hogwash. The polish accumulates inside of the little pockets instead of throughout the entire pad.

IMPROVES OPERATOR CONTROL - CCS pockets gradually release polish as needed by the operator.

This isn't a benefit, this is a drawback. Many compounds and polishes have abrasives that break down as you work them into the finish. I don't like the idea of having fresh abrasives mixing in with broken down abrasives.

PREVENTS PAD SKIPPING - CCS pockets reduce surface tension allowing operator to run pad flat on working surface.

I'll admit this is true. CCS pads are slightly easier to control but it's because there's less foam touching the surface. I already went over why this is a bad thing.

CREATES LESS HEAT - CCS pockets reduce surface contact resulting in less friction generated heat.

Less surface contact is a bad thing. One of the reasons why dual action polishers are recommended to novices and hobbyists is because they don't generate much heat, so that benefit doesn't apply.


As for comparing Menz/SSII with Optimum/Collinite, I can't compare the two since I haven't used Menz/SSII. Optimum has a very good reputation for producing quality products at an affordable price. I've been thoroughly impressed by almost every Optimum product that I've used. As for Collinite, its the best value in wax on the market. Its durability is second to none, it's easy to apply and looks great.

In case you needed any more convincing, forum member BobbyG is Collinite's biggest cheerleader on here. He owns a yellow 2004 Corvette, so you'd think if he can afford a car like that he'd be putting some expensive boutique wax on it eh? Nope, good ol' $14.99 Collinite 845.

 

[Wes8398]

Awesome, thanks so much Stone. I know a lot of this stuff is personal preference and there are a lot of different opinions out there, but it's nice for a noob like me to get some guidance from the more experienced people out here. Not only does it steer me in the right direction, bit also saves me a few bucks. Thanks again.