Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.

WRAPT C5Z06 said:
Thoughts RSW? RPM is higher on the Makita.

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Thanks for the info on the Rupes.

In my experience, Rupes always executes their designs very well and they've been around a long time and the Mille isn't the first forced rotation machine they've made so I'd expect it to be well built. Also, it has two options when it comes to backing plates - both five and six inch. The six inch backing plate will mean more movement between the pad and the paint for any given RPM. They also had the good sense to make the machine spin the right direction. At SEMA, I had a long and very good, both technically and personally, conversation with their designer who is a very professional and personable guy about why they should make a forced rotation with orbit machine and what characteristics I thought it should have. So....


The PO5000C and Rupes are essentially equal in weight, power and ergonomics, so it comes down to movement. The diameter of the orbits are, again, essentially equal. They both have enough and that's all they should have because, even though the machines can be counter balanced to deal with the vibration created by the orbit when the machines are running freely, the movement of the machine against the paint sends a vibration back through the machine from the surface. I bigger orbit, a bigger vibration. No way around it. They've both got it right.

So, even though the Rupes has the option for the bigger backing plate, I think the speed difference will give the edge to the Makita in terms of how much work you can get out of it in any given time. 780 rpms for the Makita and 535 for the Rupes means the Makita will create more movement between the pad and the paint. Because the Makita spins faster, it might vibrate more when it's in use. If it does, I'll put a weight on it where a handle might screw in.

That's why I've got a Makita on order.

Take Care,
RSW
 
RSW said:
Thanks for the info on the Rupes.

In my experience, Rupes always executes their designs very well and they've been around a long time and the Mille isn't the first forced rotation machine they've made so I'd expect it to be well built. Also, it has two options when it comes to backing plates - both five and six inch. The six inch backing plate will mean more movement between the pad and the paint for any given RPM. They also had the good sense to make the machine spin the right direction. At SEMA, I had a long and very good, both technically and personally, conversation with their designer who is a very professional and personable guy about why they should make a forced rotation with orbit machine and what characteristics I thought it should have. So....


The PO5000C and Rupes are essentially equal in weight, power and ergonomics, so it comes down to movement. The diameter of the orbits are, again, essentially equal. They both have enough and that's all they should have because, even though the machines can be counter balanced to deal with the vibration created by the orbit when the machines are running freely, the movement of the machine against the paint sends a vibration back through the machine from the surface. I bigger orbit, a bigger vibration. No way around it. They've both got it right.

So, even though the Rupes has the option for the bigger backing plate, I think the speed difference will give the edge to the Makita in terms of how much work you can get out of it in any given time. 780 rpms for the Makita and 535 for the Rupes means the Makita will create more movement between the pad and the paint. Because the Makita spins faster, it might vibrate more when it's in use. If it does, I'll put a weight on it where a handle might screw in.

That's why I've got a Makita on order.

Take Care,
RSW
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Fantastic reply, thank you. I'm going to order the Makita as well.


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custmsprty said:
So instead of shelling out $700+ for two tools, a gear driven da and a free spinning da you get both in one tool for $369.00. I'd have to say that's a major plus in the Makita's favor and a revolution in the da world.
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Yeah, it might be a revolution in the DA world, but it's not a revolution in Makita's world, because they already make this:

Makita BO6050J Polisher

That's the second version of that polisher, the original version they have been making for I think as long as I've been on detailing forums, so that's over a dozen years. Mike Phillips reviewed it here: https://www.autogeekonline.net/foru...546-makita-bo6040-removing-sanding-marks.html
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Yeah, it might be a revolution in the DA world, but it's not a revolution in Makita's world, because they already make this:

Makita BO6050J Polisher

That's the second version of that polisher, the original version they have been making for I think as long as I've been on detailing forums, so that's over a dozen years. Mike Phillips reviewed it here: https://www.autogeekonline.net/foru...546-makita-bo6040-removing-sanding-marks.html
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FWIW. the new makita has a higher OPM and RPM.
 
WRAPT C5Z06 said:
FWIW. the new makita has a higher OPM and RPM.
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I'm just saying that the concept (and sale) of the forced/free polisher has been around for a long time. Makita never got very much traction with it before, it was a very expensive machine, but that was back in the PC days, before we had expensive Flex, Rupes, and BOSS machines.

I mean here's a thread about it from 2007, which is about as far back as you can go on this forum: https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/porter-cable-7424xp-dual-action-orbital-polisher/4568-7424.html
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm just saying that the concept (and sale) of the forced/free polisher has been around for a long time. Makita never got very much traction with it before, it was a very expensive machine, but that was back in the PC days, before we had expensive Flex, Rupes, and BOSS machines.

I mean here's a thread about it from 2007, which is about as far back as you can go on this forum: https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/porter-cable-7424xp-dual-action-orbital-polisher/4568-7424.html
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You're right, the BO6040 was very expensive when it came out. I bought one the minute I saw it online and paid right around $600 for it. I used it one day and ordered another one - my wife asked, why I needed two... because if this thing breaks I'm not leaving the house till it's fixed or replaced. That was 2002. I've tried almost every machine before and since then, all makes all actions - you don't know until you do a side by side test.

I did the math and found that even with the smaller backing plate, the Makita still has roughly twenty percent more movement at the outside edge because of speed advantage - I didn't account for the opms because my math's not up to it, maybe yours is.

The smaller pad on either machine will obviously put more pressure per square inch on the panel as well but there's a limit to how hard you can push down before you start warping the sheet metal. I do a fair number of aluminum cars so I sometimes have to be very light, even holding the machine up but that's not the norm, or rather, average.

This is one of those cases where a lighter machine isn't better either. The machine has to have a enough weight to dampen the vibration that comes from the friction of the orbit against the panel. Like I mentioned before, I had to add weights to the BO6050 but the extra weight really smooths it out. Also, it helps on the horizontal surfaces and by weighting the pad slightly more on side spinning downward on the side panels you can make the machine lift itself, so it's not an issue. It might not need two lbs added but it is really smooth now, lol.

BTW, Makita makes a hard 5 inch backing plate for the BO6050 and that's what I'm using.

All the best,
RSW
 
On edit, with the 6050, the OPM's are the same, but the RPM is higher with the PO5000C
 
Ah RSW...I figured out who you are...Mr. Wizard! Good of you to stop by, you've got a lot of insight to offer.
 
WRAPT C5Z06 said:
The Mille has higher OPM but less RPM than the Makita. How does this translate for correction between the two?


Agreed.
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Both these machines should correct faster than random orbitals. They'll also have the advantage of being able to correct closer to inside edges and along the pillars and next to moldings and gaskets.

That said, in my experience, OPMs aren't that important on forced rotation machines. As long as there are enough to cross cut the spin, swirl marks won't be a problem. Higher RPMS should equate to a faster machine. Either machine will be a serious addition to anyone's tool set and should make anyone who doesn't have one a more effective detailer.

If you noticed what Mike said about doing correction on his demo car - that he'd usually use a rotary and follow with a machine to remove the swirls, that's been how I do it ever since I started using a rotary. These machines will make more of the first corrections with a rotary less necessary because they'll have a greater range.

More RPMS, more movement between the pad and the paint, is better IHMO but either machine for the win.

RSW
 
RSW said:
Both these machines should correct faster than random orbitals. They'll also have the advantage of being able to correct closer to inside edges and along the pillars and next to moldings and gaskets.

That said, in my experience, OPMs aren't that important on forced rotation machines. As long as there are enough to cross cut the spin, swirl marks won't be a problem. Higher RPMS should equate to a faster machine. Either machine will be a serious addition to anyone's tool set and should make anyone who doesn't have one a more effective detailer.

If you noticed what Mike said about doing correction on his demo car - that he'd usually use a rotary and follow with a machine to remove the swirls, that's been how I do it ever since I started using a rotary. These machines will make more of the first corrections with a rotary less necessary because they'll have a greater range.

More RPMS, more movement between the pad and the paint, is better IHMO but either machine for the win.

RSW
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You are a wizard!!


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I'm like 99% there in purchasing the Makita. But i can also get a slamming deal on a 21mm Griots. So tough....
 
The new Makita looks amazing. I had planned on getting a Boss 21...
 
craigdt said:
The new Makita looks amazing. I had planned on getting a Boss 21...
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Get them both ;-)
I haven't did any comparisons between my PO5000c, 3401 or G21 yet...but so far found out PO5000c on speed 5 just jiggles and doesn't rotate...but speed 3-4 it has great rotation.
In forced mode it works great
.still not sure I like it better then my G21 but def love it compared to my 3401
 
nothingface5384 said:
Get them both ;-)
I haven't did any comparisons between my PO5000c, 3401 or G21 yet...but so far found out PO5000c on speed 5 just jiggles and doesn't rotate...but speed 3-4 it has great rotation.
In forced mode it works great
.still not sure I like it better then my G21 but def love it compared to my 3401
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judging by the video by makita it looked as though as it was doing just that, thanks for the honest feedback thus far...
 
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