From "stay tuned" to T U N E D !!

oneheadlite said:
- An actual knock issue. Hate to say it, but if all other elements are functioning correctly, then the knock sensor could just be doing it's job and reporting that it's hearing noise it shouldn't be. Timing or timing chain issues, piston slap, or excessive bearing clearance could cause this. I saw a procedure in the repair info that they have a tool for testing for excessive bearing clearance ( https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10190044-0001.pdf ). This is concerning because it means it's a thing they've seen enough to make a way to test for it. That might be a question to ask your service peeps and see if they can let you know what engines they've been seeing that on.
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What about bad gas or gas with too low of octane? Would the ECU retard timing enough to avoid knock, or could you still get it? Just thinking out loud and grasping at straws now... I've never tripped a light, but have had some very unhappy cars in the past due to both low octane/bad gas.
 
Klasse Act said:
Desert and One headlight...THANK YOU!

So because this is triggered by the carwash, although not every single wash as the first knock sensor, original one, lasted till July 2023 (1 calender year of using the carwash multiple times a week, 2nd knock sensor one from Mid July 2023 till Jan 30th of this year) the techline is suggesting a special dialectic grease that had to be ordered and should be here Sat. I promised not to run the car through the wash and they cleared the code, road tested it and said I can pick it up after work.

Now when I cleared the code on the 30th of January myself it lasted 4 days and 47 miles before coming on AND no carwash either, just an FYI.

What do the 2 of you think about this "fix" from the techline
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I'd be looking at re-pinning the connector at least at the knock sensor to rule out poor contact there just to rule it out. This would also give a chance to inspect the weather-pac inserts that help seal moisture out of the connector. This many visits in I'd be going hard for a Fix not a Fingers Crossed...
 
I basically go to the same Shell and get V-power

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I wrote down "Bullitt points" from your post OneHeadlight and passed it along to the SA. I told him it's not that I don't trust the mechanic but rather trying to pass along as much info as possible here to help this along, especially since it's so odd.

I txt'd my buddy Marcin about this and he tells me they tried the dielectric grease on his and while on the test drive the CEL came back and they had to replace the knock sensor, his original, mines #2.

I'm hoping the original batches were bad because the car was built during Covid and they were thin with suppliers and quality, hopefully my replacement is better and will take to the grease and that little o-ring on there isn't wasted.

I'm probably just on hopium here, huh I just want my car back and reliable, if that's even possible at this point. I know others in the world have much more pressing and important issues than this but my car is more important to me than you guys know! I went through so much sh!t 4-5 yrs ago and this car made a big difference in my life, really took my mind off of things and helped me get back to "normal", and then some as it's really a special ride

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All this talk of connectors and pins reminds me of a couple of issues I had. One was in my blue VZ Commodore, I was driving to work early one morning, dim conditions so I had my headlights on, I came up behind a car and noticed my hi-beams appeared to be on, but it wasn't showing on the dash, and I definitely didn't have my hi-beams on. I took it back to the dealer, I'd bought it used but it was still covered by the new car warranty. Diagnosis - bad connector, it had taken 2.5 years but eventually it was bad enough to short out and force the hi-beams on, they replaced the whole section of cable complete with connectors.

The other was in my white ex-hwp V8 Commodore, about 2 years after I bought it, sometimes it would just not start, turn the key and nothing happened, no click, no noise whatsoever, I get out and look under the hood, everything looks good, try again, nothing, shut the hood in frustration, try again, it starts. It took a very old school sparky, after I explained that process, to get me to try something. Next time it does it, when you open the hood, swap the starter and horn relays, they're the same specs, if it starts it was the relay, if it starts and the horn still works it was the connection for the starter relay. Well I did as told, and it was the connection, the relay had been put in when the car was new about 8 years before and had built up some resistance, when I was shutting the hood, angrily, it was enough to jolt it a little bit so it would start.

Car electrics are frustrating, and somewhat like magic.

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The dialectic grease was used on my buddy's car, which is the exact same car for the knock sensor and it popped on the test drive and they then replaced it. I know there's some labor involved replacing it but stop messing around and just replace what worked last time from the jump

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So my SA called and the dialectic grease is in and I'll be dropping off the EN tomorrow after work, they'll work on it Thursday and test drive it and see what's what.

I fully expect the 1326 code to come back. It needs either another knock sensor, which cured it last July with dozens of washes from then till Jan 30th this year or something with the wiring.

Btw the tech reminded me during our chat that when they test drove it last week their equipment showed an ambient temp of almost 400 degrees...was it driven on Venus

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Klasse Act said:
...
Btw the tech reminded me during our chat that when they test drove it last week their equipment showed an ambient temp of almost 400 degrees...was it driven on Venus
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You've got gremlins my friend... :doh: :(

400 degrees sounds like a substitute value for when the sensor's reading is too far out of range, from a bad sensor/connection/wiring/processing. They should try unplugging whatever sensor reads that and see if it changes - if it doesn't it could be another piece of the puzzle.
 
Desertnate said:
What about bad gas or gas with too low of octane? Would the ECU retard timing enough to avoid knock, or could you still get it? Just thinking out loud and grasping at straws now... I've never tripped a light, but have had some very unhappy cars in the past due to both low octane/bad gas.
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Plausible; but for how much driving Klasse does and hitting a top tier station I'd think he'd notice a difference from tank to tank.
 
oneheadlite said:
You've got gremlins my friend... :doh: :(

400 degrees sounds like a substitute value for when the sensor's reading is too far out of range, from a bad sensor/connection/wiring/processing. They should try unplugging whatever sensor reads that and see if it changes - if it doesn't it could be another piece of the puzzle.
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Suddenly my Korean car had turned into a British car from the 60's/70's🫣

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Oof! Yeah, this is getting interesting. The strange part is despite all the lights and other gremlins, you said the car seemed to run fine...other than on the dyno without a good warm up. I'm surprised the bad reading on the ambien temp sensor hasn't caused some strange behavior with your climate control inside the car. On both my Subaru and the wife's Acura, the car uses that data to determine which vents to direct air and whether to turn on other things like the heated windshield in the Acura.

They told you the dialectic grease is "in", like they had to order it? I would have thought it was something any garage/shop would have on hand and it's easily picked up at any auto parts store. Even if it is special and somehow different from the stuff you'd buy at Autozone, I would think it's a common consumable they'd have on hand.
 
Desertnate said:
Oof! Yeah, this is getting interesting. The strange part is despite all the lights and other gremlins, you said the car seemed to run fine...other than on the dyno without a good warm up. I'm surprised the bad reading on the ambien temp sensor hasn't caused some strange behavior with your climate control inside the car. On both my Subaru and the wife's Acura, the car uses that data to determine which vents to direct air and whether to turn on other things like the heated windshield in the Acura.

They told you the dialectic grease is "in", like they had to order it? I would have thought it was something any garage/shop would have on hand and it's easily picked up at any auto parts store. Even if it is special and somehow different from the stuff you'd buy at Autozone, I would think it's a common consumable they'd have on hand.
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I thought that too about the grease, I'll be passing along that ambient temp diagnosis too, you guys have been great, now let's hope the Dealership can be great

I've only driven 15 miles since leaving the dealership Monday, so not enough miles for the code to come back (last time it was 4 days/47 miles).

Speaking of this, if a sensor is bad, why does clearing the code work at all, even if it's a short time/mileage

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Klasse Act said:
Speaking of this, if a sensor is bad, why does clearing the code work at all, even if it's a short time/mileage
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When you clear the code, you're not actually doing anything with the sensor itself, you're simply erasing the code from the memory in the ECU, like deleting a number from an Excel spreadsheet. When the software in the ECU gets a value from the sensor it doesn't like, it writes the code back into memory for you to see and turns on the warning light. There are lots of reasons why you might be see varying times between the light coming on. It could be the sensor randomly fritzing out and sending a bad value, it might actually be taking on water when you wash the car, or (like Oneheadlight mentioned) the sensor could be working right and detecting something in the engine. In the event the sensor is actually working properly you might see the various gaps due to the knock event only happening at random times, or the the ECU allows for a certain number of knock events to happen before trigging the light and throwing a code.

The strange part to me in all of this is the fact it only happens when the car is washed. Where is the sensor located? Unless you're washing the engine bay I'd think it would stay pretty dry or, depending on location, washing would be no different than driving in the rain.

Refresh my memory. You don't see/notice any change in performance after the light/code are cleared, correct? The car doesn't go into a "limp mode" like BMW's do?
 
I'm not washing the engine bay, it's a touch-free wash but it takes time for the wash to trigger it.

The car was put into service on March 23rd, 2022, started using the touch-free wash July of 2022 and the first issue was 1 calender year later, July 2023. Took it to them 3x's, first 2 cleared, washed and returned, 3rd was knock sensor replacement. Fast forward to Jan 30th 2024 after a wash, many times used since repair and here we are.

When it's cleared the performance seems fine, unlike when in limpmode where it will not Rev past 2K.

Today they worked on it, talked to their techline, they added the grease and while on the test drive it came back but here's the thing, the SA asked me questions from the tech. The first one was my TB spacer...don't have one. The next thing was my trans mount bushings. I told them they're street version inserts which reduce wheel hop and shaking, no more vibrations of epic proportions since installing these. Even from a roll this thing would wheelhop, so not sure what the F they're trying to do here (I think I know).

My OEM+ intake is 100% not an issue, the larger TIP is just that, larger and the mid-pipe is nothing, this sucks️

If this goes sideways I'll be away from the site for quite some time and with all the talk here lately the site might be gone by the time I'm back, if I even come back because financially I can't afford a lawyer and might have to do a voluntary repo of my car, so much for my stellar credit score🫣

I'd like to thank you all for your help here, if you know a good lawyer maybe send him my way

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Big Dave said:
This may seem like a weird coincidence, but I listen to this guy's podcasts almost everyday, and one of his specialities is lemon law. I don't know if you were joking or not, but he sounds like he knows what he's doing.

Michigan Lemon Law Attorney - Law Office of Steve Lehto



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I think there going to question him about mods and thus trying to void his warranty. He won’t be lemon law’ing but trying to get them not too… from my understanding is that the moss have to be shown to affect or cause issue to void warranty. But I am no lawyer.

I was surprised the swapped your ECU with a tune. Probably good that happened before questioning. I don’t see how mods you have now could be triggering knock but I am no lawyer or mechanic.

But [mention]Klasse Act [/mention] … not coming here is segregating yourself from people who have your back and can empathize with you.

Wish you luck man and I hope all gets fixed.


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Coatingsarecrack said:
I think there going to question him about mods and thus trying to void his warranty. He won’t be lemon law’ing but trying to get them not too… from my understanding is that the moss have to be shown to affect or cause issue to void warranty. But I am no lawyer.

I was surprised the swapped your ECU with a tune. Probably good that happened before questioning. I don’t see how mods you have now could be triggering knock but I am no lawyer or mechanic.

But [mention]Klasse Act [/mention] … not coming here is segregating yourself from people who have your back and can empathize with you.

Wish you luck man and I hope all gets fixed.


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If it happens to both modified and unmodified cars then the mods have nothing to do with it, and it appears to be happening to both. That doesn't mean they won't try to void it, but sometimes correspondence from a lawyer shows that you mean business, especially if you can cite evidence that the same thing is happening to both modified and unmodified vehicles. Car companies hate class actions, they can be very expensive.

We don't have lemon laws over here, but it is possible to get your money back. A woman took Land Rover Australia to court because her new Range Rover spent more time at the dealership than with her in the first year she had it due to numerous faults, she won and they had to pay back the total purchase price, and had to pay her legal costs.

People don't always win though, a guy blew up the engine in his 2 year old ute, I can't remember the brand, but it would have been a turbo diesel, they quoted around $18k for a replacement engine, he tried to claim warranty from the vehicle manufacturer, but he had an aftermarket bullbar fitted and the manufacturer said it voided the warranty as it affected the air flow for cooling. He tried to claim from the bullbar manufacturer, and they said the faulty engine has nothing to do with them, he's basically screwed.

This knock sensor issue has happened to a few Elantra Ns now, and even a Kona N. Hyundai won't want bad press from this, they've designed this poorly, and they need to fix it.

Someone should mount a GoPro under the hood then wash and drive it just to see if there's any obvious water flowing around?

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Coatingsarecrack said:
I think there going to question him about mods and thus trying to void his warranty. He won’t be lemon law’ing but trying to get them not too… from my understanding is that the moss have to be shown to affect or cause issue to void warranty. But I am no lawyer.
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Agree. I can see this coming from here. They probably got the old ECU back and have figured things out and will likely take that as a way of not having to pay or document the issue that may or may not be the underlying cause. The Moss act is a little grey when fighting it. My wife is a lawyer and worked with a firm that took consumer law cases like this. In the end, manufacturers do a LOT Of testing and documentation, and in the end all they will really have to prove is that their factory/stock stuff works, and if a different tune was applied, then their factory warranty will no longer apply as it's no longer their full design that they back up. It's not even so much about proving the tune caused it, they have hundreds of thousands of cases that can prove these things don't happen to stock vehicles, and that so long as the design stays within their parameters and the consumer side will have to back up their argument to the opposite effect. Tunes are not like using different motor mount or hard-part. Software is much different. There's a reason why the phrase is "pay to play"

I've tuned or modified nearly every car I've owned and gotten lucky to have either avoided issues or at least the BIG ones. I'm leaving my Accord stock for a number of reasons, but this is one of them. These newer 4cyl. turbo cars in this generation of engineering are really already pushing limits and so tightly tuned that nearly everything/anything tosses a code somewhere. Not knocking the Koreans as the new products are pretty nice, but it's still my opinion they aren't long-term reliable or as well designed as others in the business.

I've not kept up with this entire thread but my assumption is after his tune there were some odd issues and now the dealer and manufacturer are looking into them. I personally would suspect it's time to trade that sucker in a cut-bait.
 
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