The Cure for M105's short working time and dusting issues

Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
I was traveling all last week for a special project and when working with Operation Comfort and saw this thread but haven't carved out the time to reply till just now...

First, anyone that's been reading my posts since 1994 knows I always say,

"Find something that you like and use it often"


This just means, exactly what it says, so if you find adding mineral oil to your pad when using M105 then that's your business and your "system".


With that said, since starting to post how-to information to the "Internet" starting in 1994 my normal reply to any thread where people are mixing chemicals and product trying to reach a desired end-result, to follow the manufactures directions.

If the manufacture recommends adding something to the product then by all means follow their directions, if they don't then it could be there's a reason for this.

So I've sent the link to this thread to Mike Pennington, the Director of Training at Meguiar's and also to Jason Rose, the Product Manager for the Professional Line just so that they are aware of this new idea being posted as a way to improve M105 and/or Ultimate Compound.


I'm not a big fan of people mixing chemicals because in most cases it can alter the performance of a product in a negative way. That may or may not be the case in this example, I don't know, that's why I've forwarded the link to this thread to people with the ability to talk to the chemist that created the formula.


It is safe to say that at this time this is not an official recommendation from Meguiar's.



:)
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying Mike. I too am one that like to follow the manufactuers recommendations but where so many people have the same problems with M105 many people will look for a bandaid solution(KBM w/water or mineral oil) until the issues are address. Perhaps Meguairs already updated the formula and is awaiting its release after sema. :dunno:

CEE DOG said:
Thanks for sharing your discovery Alan. That was a LOT of product you had on the pad there! Have you tried your method with a more conventional amount of polish?
Click to expand...

Yea I know. :laughing: Ron said the same thing to me. I accidently applied too much to the pad because my bottle of M105 is going bad on me. It's starting to thin out and become almost watery. I normally dont use that much at all..

cwpcasey said:
As someone who was struggling with M105 I must say I was able to get the results I was looking for with adding the baby oil to my pad before M105. I didnt have any problems with this method except the pad wont last as long as it normally has if I didnt. I did notice when I would wipe there was a haze on some of the panels manly the doors, but Im not sure if it was there before.
Click to expand...

Did you do a proper wipe down to remove the residue after polishing? Since you are introducing more lubricating oil to the product you would need to do either a IPA or mineral spirits wipedown to remove any residual oil.

AeroCleanse said:
I gave up on M105 a long time ago, I found a better product that doesn't have all the issues of M105. I use that product 99.9% of the time, the other .1% is D151
Click to expand...

I havent entirely given up on M105 as I still have other compounds in my arsenal to use that have more cut but less finishing capability. I have always been interested in the old system one polish when I seen the work that Totoland Mach used to produce with it.
 
Lasthope05 said:
Did you do a proper wipe down to remove the residue after polishing? Since you are introducing more lubricating oil to the product you would need to do either a IPA or mineral spirits wipedown to remove any residual oil.
Click to expand...

No I did not... Im guessing that would have helped?
 
O-kay!!!

I applaud you for trying new things, scouring the forums for cutting-edge information, and just in general, being a polishing enthusiast. I'm not even going to try to talk you out of the mineral oil thing because it is a process that you believe to be beneficial. I'd rather see you using M105 than not using M105 (hey, sue me- I'm a Meguiar's fan). After looking at your video, however, I immediately noticed some application procedures that could lead to the negative issues you've listed (excessive dusting and short working time).

During your online research, I'm sure you've read virtually every thread related to M105, so you must have seen this post, which discusses pad priming, and how it helps to minimize "flashing":

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/29071-my-method-megs-105-a-2.html#post360260

1. I suspect you've already primed the pad pre-video..
Good.

2. I noticed that you used WAY too much M105.
Goodness, man, save some for a rainy day! Seriously, you can cut the amount WAY back. Prime, and then add drops as needed. You'll get more cut.

3. Your applied pressure is very inconsistent.
This is one of the reason I say to add pressure. It compresses the pad and forces it to contour to the panel. This results in even abrading, less flinging, less clumping. Your pad is speeding up, slowing down, pressure is varied across the pad depending upon how you are holding the machine and how the pad in contacting the panel.

4. Do not spread the product across the surface at the onset of polishing.
Otherwise, a good amount of the product is going to accumulate along the edge of the pad (the edge effectively squeegees it off the surface if the pad is sitting level to the surface). the M105 may get goopy or clumped, and eventually sling.

5. You are moving the machine too quickly.
Slow your arm movement WAY down. Move the machine approximately one inch per second.

6. You are working too large an area.
As the M105 sits, lubricating agents evaporate. This will greatly shorten the working cycle.

7. Machine speed is too high.
Slow the speed so that the pad still rotates but is not causing the pad to skim across the surface.

Always remember that there are plusses and minuses to procedures. Paint swelling may increase immensely on some paints by adding mineral oil, which may not be noticeable for up to a week. Once the mineral oil has evaporated from the paint, you may see scouring that was not visible before. Plus, any time you use a solvent or alcohol to strip a paint surface, there's always a chance that the paint will further swell. It's happened to me, so I know from firsthand experience. My old buddy Jason Rose has even been able to measure paint thickness variances simply by moving a car from the shade into the sun on a hot So-Cal day. Petroleum-based solvent and even alcohol can attribute to paint swelling.

Please understand- I'n not trying to say you are doing something wrong, nor am I trying to dissuade you, or even let the gas outta' your balloon! Just wanted to know that your video shed some light on your situation. Best o'luck!
 
Kevin Brown said:
O-kay!!!

I applaud you for trying new things, scouring the forums for cutting-edge information, and just in general, being a polishing enthusiast. I'm not even going to try to talk you out of the mineral oil thing because it is a process that you believe to be beneficial. I'd rather see you using M105 than not using M105 (hey, sue me- I'm a Meguiar's fan). After looking at your video, however, I immediately noticed some application procedures that could lead to the negative issues you've listed (excessive dusting and short working time).

During your online research, I'm sure you've read virtually every thread related to M105, so you must have seen this post, which discusses pad priming, and how it helps to minimize "flashing":

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/29071-my-method-megs-105-a-2.html#post360260

1. I suspect you've already primed the pad pre-video..
Good.

2. I noticed that you used WAY too much M105.
Goodness, man, save some for a rainy day! Seriously, you can cut the amount WAY back. Prime, and then add drops as needed. You'll get more cut.

3. Your applied pressure is very inconsistent.
This is one of the reason I say to add pressure. It compresses the pad and forces it to contour to the panel. This results in even abrading, less flinging, less clumping. Your pad is speeding up, slowing down, pressure is varied across the pad depending upon how you are holding the machine and how the pad in contacting the panel.

4. Do not spread the product across the surface at the onset of polishing.
Otherwise, a good amount of the product is going to accumulate along the edge of the pad (the edge effectively squeegees it off the surface if the pad is sitting level to the surface). the M105 may get goopy or clumped, and eventually sling.

5. You are moving the machine too quickly.
Slow your arm movement WAY down. Move the machine approximately one inch per second.

6. You are working too large an area.
As the M105 sits, lubricating agents evaporate. This will greatly shorten the working cycle.

7. Machine speed is too high.
Slow the speed so that the pad still rotates but is not causing the pad to skim across the surface.

Always remember that there are plusses and minuses to procedures. Paint swelling may increase immensely on some paints by adding mineral oil, which may not be noticeable for up to a week. Once the mineral oil has evaporated from the paint, you may see scouring that was not visible before. Plus, any time you use a solvent or alcohol to strip a paint surface, there's always a chance that the paint will further swell. It's happened to me, so I know from firsthand experience. My old buddy Jason Rose has even been able to measure paint thickness variances simply by moving a car from the shade into the sun on a hot So-Cal day. Petroleum-based solvent and even alcohol can attribute to paint swelling.

Please understand- I'n not trying to say you are doing something wrong, nor am I trying to dissuade you, or even let the gas outta' your balloon! Just wanted to know that your video shed some light on your situation. Best o'luck!
Click to expand...

First off, I'd like to say that it is nice to hear your voice on this topic and I have taken your opinion as good constructive criticism. I have to admit the video I made is a very poor representation of my technique. My main point in making the video was to show the effects of its long working time and easy product removal. I was not too concerned about removing the defects as at the end of the video you can see how light the swirls were. I've stated in earlier posts I accidentally applied too much product to the face of the pad as my bottle of M105 is going bad as its turned to a very watery on me. To correct this I decided to expand my working area fully know the mineral oil would help combat the issue of M105 drying out. I normally do use your method of pad priming with SMAT products.

I mainly use my rotary for correction work and only use the DA for finishing or 1 steppers, that could attributing to the problems I have with M105 as it acts very differently between the two machines.

The theory of paint swelling has been quietly lurking around the detailing forums for a while but there has not been any substantial problems of paint swelling with the masses. I remember when it all started with claims that certain ingredients in Menzerna polishes would swell up the paint making it appear a full correction has been achieved only to find out weeks later that the defects have returned. There has only been a very limited number of cases of this happening and while I cannot say the use of mineral oil/solvents/alcohol does not swell the paint, I have not seen any defects returning on any of my customers cars.
 
Hey Alan,

I think posts like this are great! Autogeek enjoys detailer from beginner to the professional and everything in between. From personal experience I too can say that Meguiar's M105 does have a short working window and is frustrating for many.

Some may say; "learn to use it as is". I'm not sure that I agree with this especially if an alternative solution is available and seems to work. Many here progress slowly, which is the right thing to do, all the while gaining the needed feel and hands on experience to become more proficient with both machine and product.

Adding just a bit more lube to increase the working time of Meguiar's M105 will prove to ease some of the frustration. If memory serves me correctly Meguiar's is doing something at the formulation level to increase working times.

Necessity "is" the mother of invention...

Your post is very well done and easy to understand! :props:
 
To be honest, I just don't care for the idea of adding mineral oil to a compound. The work time may be increased, but the probability of filling or causing the paint to swell increases. However, if you plan on doing a Dawn wash, adding oil to M105 would increase the working time.

Here are some suggestions that always work for me:

1. Pick up some M86 Solo. It does not have as much cut as M105, but it has a very long working time and does not dust as much.

2. Try mixing M105 with M205 - three parts M105, one part M205 or a ratio of your own. This will decrease the total cut, but will increase your working time.
 
Kevin Brown said:
O-kay!!!

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/29071-my-method-megs-105-a-2.html#post360260

2. I noticed that you used WAY too much M105.
Goodness, man, save some for a rainy day! Seriously, you can cut the amount WAY back. Prime, and then add drops as needed. You'll get more cut.

3. Your applied pressure is very inconsistent.
This is one of the reason I say to add pressure. It compresses the pad and forces it to contour to the panel. This results in even abrading, less flinging, less clumping. Your pad is speeding up, slowing down, pressure is varied across the pad depending upon how you are holding the machine and how the pad in contacting the panel.

4. Do not spread the product across the surface at the onset of polishing.
Otherwise, a good amount of the product is going to accumulate along the edge of the pad (the edge effectively squeegees it off the surface if the pad is sitting level to the surface). the M105 may get goopy or clumped, and eventually sling.

7. Machine speed is too high.
Slow the speed so that the pad still rotates but is not causing the pad to skim across the surface.
Click to expand...
Hey Kevin,
Thank you for commenting. I've tried to incorporate your techniques into my use of 105 and missed some fine points. Your points sent me back to reading earlier posts.

I had gotten into the habit of spreading compound over the 18-20" working area before speeding up the speed. I also went back and looked at proper pad priming. I will change these two procedures.

What speed do you use with a PCXP for correction? I've varied between 5 and 6 to keep the 5.5" orange pad rotating and the pressure up.

I also had an epiphany about why some pads get so hot. Any liquid in the pad from pad conditioners, recent pad cleaning without full drying or too much product block the air flow so heat is not released.

Thanks!
 
Pardon me....may I have this dance?

I wanted to cut in on this conversation...pun intented. haha.

This is my first post to AutoGeek. My name is Jason Rose. I am on the product development team for Meguiar's Professional Products. I was intimately involved in the development of M105, and the subsequent tweak to the formula a year after it's product launch. Many folks worked on the project, so I am speaking for the development team.

Thank you Mike Phillips for inviting me to the thread. As a service to AutoGeek, and ultimately to detailers, I would like to get engaged in this topic to enhance clarity (haha, another pun intended) and help with understanding M105.

In general, Meguiar's does not endorse mixing products in an attempt to modify intended results. But we understand that the practice exists out there, and we frankly can't stop anyone from doing it. Just know that anytime you mix two products together, the results may be unpreditable at best, and sometimes unsafe. Be careful please. No one should be getting hurt in the quest for the ultimate compound or polish. Machine polishing cars should be a safe activity. (We feel compeled to say this in a forum environment because people reading about mixing stuff could interpret that mixing stuff is ok, when in some cases it is definately a safety risk.)

Now, adding oil to M105...

First off, M105 is a "universal compound" meaning it is formulated for a variety of applications, paint types, pads, and climates. So with all the variables thrown at M105, it is not going to perform perfectly for every user everytime. Like any and all compounds, the application method, user technique, pad type, climate, defects, and paint type will impact results...and performance will vary.

M105's primary performance target was for rotary application. DA performance secondary. It works exceptionally with a DA, based on global validation and per testimonials from many detailers like yourself. The buffing cycle was dialed in for rotary and DA application, so in most cases you should not need to add anything to extend it.

Without getting too deep into all the variables...I would like to comment on the two issues mentioned; "short working time" and "dusty." My comments that follow are about DA application only.

Dust flying:
Some dusting with a universal compound being DA applied is normal. If you completely elimated the product from dusting, that fix would now have negative impacts on performance with a rotary application. But if you are getting excessive dusting from M105 with a DA application, then you may be using too much product. Once the pad is properly primed, a small amount of product is all that is needed.

Short working time:
Unfortunately buffing cycle and working time is a variable that represents user preferences. Some like a long cycle. Some like it short. But if you get a pasty sticky white residue on the paint during a short application of M105, then this result is not intended. It may be extremes in climate impacting the buffing cycle, or again, could be too much product being applied to the pad or paint. Another potential contributor could be a loaded up pad, which needs to be frequently cleaned.

In general, M105 works best with a DA application by using slow methodical overlapping passes over a 2x2 area on the paint. Once the pad is properly primed...and this may seem counter-intuitive to some...but a small amount of product will actually extend your buffing cycle and give you longer working time.

Adding mineral spirits or minieral oil may extend the working time, but can have other adverse effects on results. One might experience premature pad loading, temporary paint defect filling, paint swelling, and reduced cut rate. Or, a combination of all of these.

My recommendation would be to try the following for DA application of M105:
  • slower passes
  • smaller area
  • less product (after priming)
  • moderate downward pressure until the end of the buffing cycle
  • clean pad frequently
Please let me know your results! I am eager to hear your feedback.
Jason
 
I have been reading AG everyday for a few months now and this is the first time I have read the term "paint swelling". Since it has been mentioned a few times in this thread could someone please explain it to me.
 
The mention of "Paint Swelling" has me curious,never heard of it?
 
Jason Rose said:
Thank you Mike Phillips for inviting me to the thread. As a service to Autogeek, and ultimately to detailers, I would like to get engaged in this topic to enhance clarity (ha ha, another pun intended) and help with understanding M105.
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in Jason...

I know your job keeps you incredibly busy, especially with SEMA just two weeks away so everyone here including myself appreciates your time in commenting on this issue.

And just for fun... to put a face to a name, during an Extreme Makeover at Meguiar's I snagged a fun shot of you and the Joker Truck...


pokingfun.jpg



And a serious picture doing what you're most known for... sharing knowledge and technique...

2teachingtechnique1.jpg




:dblthumb2:
 
Always nice to see the mad scientists posting on the forums. :props:
 
Jason Rose said:
Pardon me....may I have this dance?

I wanted to cut in on this conversation...pun intented. haha.

This is my first post to AutoGeek. My name is Jason Rose. I am on the product development team for Meguiar's Professional Products. I was intimately involved in the development of M105, and the subsequent tweak to the formula a year after it's product launch. Many folks worked on the project, so I am speaking for the development team.

Thank you Mike Phillips for inviting me to the thread. As a service to AutoGeek, and ultimately to detailers, I would like to get engaged in this topic to enhance clarity (haha, another pun intended) and help with understanding M105.

In general, Meguiar's does not endorse mixing products in an attempt to modify intended results. But we understand that the practice exists out there, and we frankly can't stop anyone from doing it. Just know that anytime you mix two products together, the results may be unpreditable at best, and sometimes unsafe. Be careful please. No one should be getting hurt in the quest for the ultimate compound or polish. Machine polishing cars should be a safe activity. (We feel compeled to say this in a forum environment because people reading about mixing stuff could interpret that mixing stuff is ok, when in some cases it is definately a safety risk.)

Now, adding oil to M105...

First off, M105 is a "universal compound" meaning it is formulated for a variety of applications, paint types, pads, and climates. So with all the variables thrown at M105, it is not going to perform perfectly for every user everytime. Like any and all compounds, the application method, user technique, pad type, climate, defects, and paint type will impact results...and performance will vary.

M105's primary performance target was for rotary application. DA performance secondary. It works exceptionally with a DA, based on global validation and per testimonials from many detailers like yourself. The buffing cycle was dialed in for rotary and DA application, so in most cases you should not need to add anything to extend it.

Without getting too deep into all the variables...I would like to comment on the two issues mentioned; "short working time" and "dusty." My comments that follow are about DA application only.

Dust flying:
Some dusting with a universal compound being DA applied is normal. If you completely elimated the product from dusting, that fix would now have negative impacts on performance with a rotary application. But if you are getting excessive dusting from M105 with a DA application, then you may be using too much product. Once the pad is properly primed, a small amount of product is all that is needed.

Short working time:
Unfortunately buffing cycle and working time is a variable that represents user preferences. Some like a long cycle. Some like it short. But if you get a pasty sticky white residue on the paint during a short application of M105, then this result is not intended. It may be extremes in climate impacting the buffing cycle, or again, could be too much product being applied to the pad or paint. Another potential contributor could be a loaded up pad, which needs to be frequently cleaned.

In general, M105 works best with a DA application by using slow methodical overlapping passes over a 2x2 area on the paint. Once the pad is properly primed...and this may seem counter-intuitive to some...but a small amount of product will actually extend your buffing cycle and give you longer working time.

Adding mineral spirits or minieral oil may extend the working time, but can have other adverse effects on results. One might experience premature pad loading, temporary paint defect filling, paint swelling, and reduced cut rate. Or, a combination of all of these.

My recommendation would be to try the following for DA application of M105:
  • slower passes
  • smaller area
  • less product (after priming)
  • moderate downward pressure until the end of the buffing cycle
  • clean pad frequently
Please let me know your results! I am eager to hear your feedback.
Jason
Click to expand...

Great info. Thank you very much for posting Jason!
 
Mr. Phillips. Must you keep sharing that Joker picture? That's an embarrassing moment that needs to be history. Lose that picture some place where you will never find it!
 
ImpressiveImageDetailing said:
The mention of "Paint Swelling" has me curious,never heard of it?
Click to expand...

Paint may feel hard to the touch, but it is really an elastic semi-permeable membrane. It has to be, because the substrate the paint is bonded to expands and contracts. So, automotive paint is designed to be elastic so it can move with materials that are moving underneath it. This is even more relevent with after market refinish paint.

Certain fluids can permeate paint coatings and "soak" in. Pure polishes intended to "feed" dry paint are specifcally formulated for this purpose.

Heat by itself (such as black paint in direct sunlight on a very hot day) or heat and friction (such as rotary buffing) can swell paint...making it temporarily "taller." Oils and solvents innate to paint, can expand with heat. Oils and solvents in the compound or polish can expand the paint with heat. This is a more prevelent occurance with fresh paint on a refinished panel, but can also occur with OEM applied paint.

If you were actually able to seperate the paint coating from the primer and substrate...it would feel like a plastic sheet that stretches. Soak this "plastic sheet" in mineral oil and it will weigh more afterward.

(BTW...this is the secret to paintless dent repair, being able to bend back the dent in the substrate while having the paint hang with it and go for the ride without cracking...but don't tell the guys that do that for a living. They may not want the "secret" to get out.)

Paint swelling can be measured with the use of a paint thickness guage.

Measure the paint thickness on a black car in the morning before pulling it out of the garage. Then measure the same spot at 3pm after a full day in the direct hot sun.

Or measure the paint thickness before rotary buffing, then measure the same spot immediately after rotary buffing. In most cases it will be taller. And when the paint cools down, it will shrink down.

Paint is more like human skin, than a hard coating.

I'm talking about paint elasticity and swelling as if it were the same thing. It really isn't, but the same chemistry and dynamics are at play with either one.

Hope that helps.
Jason
 
Thanks for the informative postings Jason. Your time is much appreciated. :xyxthumbs:
 
Jason Rose said:
Paint may feel hard to the touch, but it is really an elastic semi-permeable membrane. It has to be, because the substrate the paint is bonded to expands and contracts. So, automotive paint is designed to be elastic so it can move with materials that are moving underneath it. This is even more relevent with after market refinish paint.

Certain fluids can permeate paint coatings and "soak" in. Pure polishes intended to "feed" dry paint are specifcally formulated for this purpose.

Heat by itself (such as black paint in direct sunlight on a very hot day) or heat and friction (such as rotary buffing) can swell paint...making it temporarily "taller." Oils and solvents innate to paint, can expand with heat. Oils and solvents in the compound or polish can expand the paint with heat. This is a more prevelent occurance with fresh paint on a refinished panel, but can also occur with OEM applied paint.

If you were actually able to seperate the paint coating from the primer and substrate...it would feel like a plastic sheet that stretches. Soak this "plastic sheet" in mineral oil and it will weigh more afterward.

(BTW...this is the secret to paintless dent repair, being able to bend back the dent in the substrate while having the paint hang with it and go for the ride without cracking...but don't tell the guys that do that for a living. They may not want the "secret" to get out.)

Paint swelling can be measured with the use of a paint thickness guage.

Measure the paint thickness on a black car in the morning before pulling it out of the garage. Then measure the same spot at 3pm after a full day in the direct hot sun.

Or measure the paint thickness before rotary buffing, then measure the same spot immediately after rotary buffing. In most cases it will be taller. And when the paint cools down, it will shrink down.

Paint is more like human skin, than a hard coating.

I'm talking about paint elasticity and swelling as if it were the same thing. It really isn't, but the same chemistry and dynamics are at play with either one.

Hope that helps.
Jason
Click to expand...

Jason,

I hadn't really thought about paint swelling before. I always thought of it as a hard surface but duh, elastic makes a lot more sense.

Will paint swelling also explain why using a glaze like #7 and certain waxes will help make swirls temporarily disappear?
 
Kevin Brown said:
3. Your applied pressure is very inconsistent.
This is one of the reason I say to add pressure. It compresses the pad and forces it to contour to the panel. This results in even abrading, less flinging, less clumping. Your pad is speeding up, slowing down, pressure is varied across the pad depending upon how you are holding the machine and how the pad in contacting the panel.
Click to expand...
Would this be the case with a Flex 3401 as well?
 
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