Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike Phillips - hi Mike, did you experience the same poor pad rotation in free spin mode during your initial review?

Thanks,
ScottH

Yes. I found it difficult to maintain pad rotation in the free-spin mode. I've only buffed out the 1971 Duster with this tool and that's all I've had time for as we've had a lot of video projects in the garage in the last two weeks and more this week.


Here's what used this tool for on the Duster and the mode and the order I did the processes

Machine sanding with Mirka Abralon #3000 = Gear driven mode

Machine sanding with Mirka Abralon #4000 = Free spin mode​

Comment: You shouldn't sand with the Makita PO5000C in the gear driven mode because it's too aggressive. I broke the rule because I felt lucky. I explain why you shouldn't use the Makita PO5000C to machine sand in the gear driven mode in my article on this topic with the FLEX 3401 here - dated February 14th, 2013


Can the Flex 3401 be used to wetsand?


I coined the term scalloping after the experience and strongly recommend against using a FLEX 3401 to machine sand clearcoat paints. I

In my boat detailing how-to book I do recommend using the FLEX 3401 for machine sanding gel-coats and aluminum but that's because these two materials are MUCH THICKER than clearcoat paints and they degrade to much worse condition. See the sections on restoring boats in category #4 and restoring aluminum pontoon boats.


Paperback book - How To Detail Boats With Marine 31 by Mike Phillips

Continued....


Here's what used this tool for on the Duster and the mode

Machine compounding to remove the #4000 grit sanding marks - Gear Driven Mode

Machine polishing to refine the results from the compounding step - Gear Driven Mode

Machine waxing to seal the paint after sanding, compounding and polishing = Free Spin Mode​

I tested a lot of pads as shown in my initial review in the gear-driven mode and found that the Makita PO5000C will turn and churn just about any 5.5" foam or microfiber pads. I did not test larger pads in the gear driven mode. For the free spinning mode all I tested was the 5.5" Lake Country CCS pads and I did have difficulty maintaining pad rotation. This is why I did the compounding and polishing steps in gear-driven mode and used the free spinning mode to machine apply the wax as you don't need pad rotation to machine apply a wax.


I'll need to spend some more time behind the tool to find out more about it's abilities and limitations as well as test out other pad options to see which pad types work best and which don't.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Not sure what the heck was thinking with the random orbit mode; it's super smooth, but maintaining pad rotation is worthless. Gear driven mode was beastly and very smooth(with the right pads). Didn't have a car to really test it's correction ability, but I have a feeling it'll be a monster!

Mike, did you use MF pads for the compounding stage?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, did you use MF pads for the compounding stage?

Kind of... I tested out RUES, Buff & Shine and LC microfiber pads on the new Makita tool when I compounded the 1971 Duster but anything I used microfiber on I re-compounded with foam as fibers are form of abrasive and I saw micro-marring in my results.

For the record, foam cutting pads with this tool were more than enough to pull out #4000 grit sanding marks using SONAX CutMax. I would say the paint was in the medium range from soft/medium/hard.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Kind of... I tested out RUES, Buff & Shine and LC microfiber pads on the new Makita tool when I compounded the 1971 Duster but anything I used microfiber on I re-compounded with foam as fibers are form of abrasive and I saw micro-marring in my results.

For the record, foam cutting pads with this tool were more than enough to pull out #4000 grit sanding marks using SONAX CutMax. I would say the paint was in the medium range from soft/medium/hard.

Thanks!

What foam pads did you use to compound?

 

[ScottH]

Thanks Mike for your insights. This morning I noticed the backing plate does not spin freely (by hand) when in free spin mode. This got me thinking - could this be solved with a washer installed? I have one washer on each of my GG6's, G15 and 7424. Granted they spin more freely out of the box (without a washer) than the 5000 does, but now then spin VERY easily - and I am sure this helps maintain pad rotation.

Mike I know you took the 5000 apart - does it support a washer mod or is this not possible due to being gear driven?

Thanks,
ScottH

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Thanks Mike for your insights. This morning I noticed the backing plate does not spin freely (by hand) when in free spin mode. This got me thinking - could this be solved with a washer installed? I have one washer on each of my GG6's, G15 and 7424. Granted they spin more freely out of the box (without a washer) than the 5000 does, but now then spin VERY easily - and I am sure this helps maintain pad rotation.

Mike I know you took the 5000 apart - does it support a washer mod or is this not possible due to being gear driven?

Thanks,
ScottH

The washer presents a bit of spacing on the 15mm & 21mm, so the backing plate does not rub the shroud, allowing it to spin freely. On the Makita, the backing plate does not rub the shroud, so I don't see where this would help.

FWIW, if I'm correct, Mike has NEVER advocated using a washer in any polisher.

 

[ScottH]

Thanks Wrapt. I didn't have a close look at the backing plate-shroud spacing this am but trust your eval. Wow I have to say then I am extremely disappointed with Makita if the expected behavior is no rotation under only the machine's own weight at speeds under 4 on a perfectly flat surface. How did this get to production after so many years of testing? Certainly we weren't the only ones to notice. OK so I have a nice gear driven machine and that is really how I intend to use it since I have 5 other free spinning machines. However that won't be the case for people looking to have one machine that does both. I can't for the life of me think this is normal. I'll reach out to Makita to see if I am overlooking something. Will let you know what they say.

ScottH

 

[RSW]

Why does it matter if the pad spins in random orbital mode? How much energy is really being generated, and where does that energy come from?



RSW

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Thanks Wrapt. I didn't have a close look at the backing plate-shroud spacing this am but trust your eval. Wow I have to say then I am extremely disappointed with Makita if the expected behavior is no rotation under only the machine's own weight at speeds under 4 on a perfectly flat surface. How did this get to production after so many years of testing? Certainly we weren't the only ones to notice. OK so I have a nice gear driven machine and that is really how I intend to use it since I have 5 other free spinning machines. However that won't be the case for people looking to have one machine that does both. I can't for the life of me think this is normal. I'll reach out to Makita to see if I am overlooking something. Will let you know what they say.

ScottH

No problem, Scott.

I think the lack of rotation in free spin is very normal with this machine, unfortunately. Every demo I've seen, it stalled very easily in free spin. I was hoping I was wrong when I got my hand on it, but I wasn't. Good point about those who think they're getting a great gear driven AND free spin. Gear driven - YES, free spin - NO

FWIW, I can't wait to give this machine a run in gear driven mode on heavily swirled paint. I think it will correct VERY WELL!!

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Thanks!

What foam pads did you use to compound?

About 99.99999% of the time I document all my work and take pictures and share pictures from my projects. I did this for this project. The issue however is I didn't have the time to process ALL the pictures and share them in this thread,

Review: Makita PO5000C Orbital Polisher - Gear-driven and Free Spinning - Mike Phillips


Today and this week I'll be processing a LOT of pictures for a lot of new product reviews and when I do I'll get to the pictures showing all the pads I used and share them here and created a dedicated thread as I'm sure inquiring minds want to know...

So stay tuned...

Thanks Mike for your insights. This morning I noticed the backing plate does not spin freely (by hand) when in free spin mode. This got me thinking - could this be solved with a washer installed? I have one washer on each of my GG6's, G15 and 7424. Granted they spin more freely out of the box (without a washer) than the 5000 does, but now then spin VERY easily - and I am sure this helps maintain pad rotation.

Mike I know you took the 5000 apart - does it support a washer mod or is this not possible due to being gear driven?

Thanks,
ScottH

Two comments...


1: Because the backing plate design and attachment design is identical to RUPES my guess is "yes" you could do the Kevin Brown Washer Mod to the Makita PO5000C polisher.


From the above review I posted a LOT of pictures here's two...



Note the spindle is slotted...

The backing plate is also slotted so when re-attaching the backing plate be sure to align the backing plate so it fits flush against the spindle.

2: Unlike the RUPES polishers, the rubber shroud does NOT come into contact with the back of the backing plate to cause drag.


In my opinion, spacing the backing plate further away from the spindle would not have the same effect the Kevin Brown Washer Mod has on RUPES tools because there is no drag to start with. The Kevin Brown Washer Mod was to space the backing plate away from the spindle on RUPES tools to prevent the rubber shroud from making contact with the backing plate and thus causing drag against the backing plate.


Just for you - some pictures showing the air gap between the shroud and the backing plate on the Makita PO5000C

The lack of 100% no-drag spin of the backing plate in free-spin mode is probably just tight clearances and quality bearings.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Cool, thanks!

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Why does it matter if the pad spins in random orbital mode? How much energy is really being generated, and where does that energy come from?



RSW

With such a small stroke, I would think it's imperative to have adequate pad rotation in free spin to get any type of correction. If the pad just jiggles, what good would that due?

 

[ScottH]

Why does it matter if the pad spins in random orbital mode? How much energy is really being generated, and where does that energy come from?



RSW

All else equal, more spin translates to more defect correction - at least in the hundreds of cars I've corrected. If the pad is only oscillating and not spinning, it's not doing as much correction as it could/would with a spinning pad.

ScottH

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Why does it matter if the pad spins in random orbital mode? How much energy is really being generated, and where does that energy come from?


RSW

Without pad rotation there's little to zero paint removal i.e. no correction.

With such a small stroke, I would think it's imperative to have adequate pad rotation in free spin to get any type of correction.

Without pad rotation there's little to zero paint removal i.e. no correction.

If the pad just jiggles, what good would that due?

I've seen respected gurus in the blogosphere argue that you can get correction with oscillation only. I've never seen anyone put their money where their mouth is and prove it but I've seen people talk the talk.

If the pad is only oscillating and not spinning, it's not doing as much correction as it could/would with a spinning pad.

ScottH

That's always been my rant and point.

In order to remove defects you must remove paint. Removing defects isn't actually removing the defect it's removing the paint surrounding the defect so as to level the surface and thus make the defect or the void in the paint visually disappear.

When it comes to free spinning orbital polishers, the pad MUST rotate and oscillate in order to remove paint at any measurable amount to make the process effective otherwise you're just wasting time.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Blast from the past...

From 2010


Swirls and Scratches Don't Exist


Technically, you don't remove swirls and scratches because they don't exist, they are voids in the paint. You see, swirls and scratches have no physical substance or material, they are the visual appearance of missing paint.

In order to restore a flawless, swirl and defect free finish you need to gently, and in a controlled manner, remove a little paint off the surface which has a leveling-effect. You don't actually remove swirls and scratches, you remove the paint surrounding swirls and scratches.


Same thing goes for Type II Water Spots. You don't remove Type II Water Spots, your remove the paint surrounding Type II Water Spots.



:buffing:

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Without pad rotation there's little to zero paint removal i.e. no correction.






Without pad rotation there's little to zero paint removal i.e. no correction.




I've seen respected gurus in the blogosphere argue that you can get correction with oscillation only. I've never seen anyone put their money where their mouth is and prove it but I've seen people talk the talk.







That's always been my rant and point.

In order to remove defects you must remove paint. Removing defects isn't actually removing the defect it's removing the paint surrounding the defect so as to level the surface and thus make the defect or the void in the paint visually disappear.

When it comes to free spinning orbital polishers, the pad MUST rotate and oscillate in order to remove paint at any measurable amount to make the process effective otherwise you're just wasting time.

:dblthumb2:

 

[Joe@NextLevelDetail]

Blast from the past...

From 2010


Swirls and Scratches Don't Exist


Technically, you don't remove swirls and scratches because they don't exist, they are voids in the paint. You see, swirls and scratches have no physical substance or material, they are the visual appearance of missing paint.

In order to restore a flawless, swirl and defect free finish you need to gently, and in a controlled manner, remove a little paint off the surface which has a leveling-effect. You don't actually remove swirls and scratches, you remove the paint surrounding swirls and scratches.


Same thing goes for Type II Water Spots. You don't remove Type II Water Spots, your remove the paint surrounding Type II Water Spots.



:buffing:

This is poetry.

What a excellent way to describe what really is going on. That is something I admire about your writing skills.

 

[ScottH]

Guys I spoke to a really nice guy at Makita USA (Georgia I believe) named Tony. I described the lackluster rotation we are seeing in free spin mode. I also encouraged him and the Product Developer to take one out of the box and replicate what we are seeing. I also told them they could call me at any time for more info, and offered to make a video demonstrating our observations. I will do that later today. So at the very least they are now aware that the random orbit mode is falling short of expectations. This motor has roughly the same power as the GG6 and BOSSG15/21, so at the very least I would expect free-spin rotation to be equal to those - and it's not even close.

Will keep you all posted,
Scott

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Guys I spoke to a really nice guy at Makita USA (Georgia I believe) named Tony. I described the lackluster rotation we are seeing in free spin mode. I also encouraged him and the Product Developer to take one out of the box and replicate what we are seeing. I also told them they could call me at any time for more info, and offered to make a video demonstrating our observations. I will do that later today. So at the very least they are now aware that the random orbit mode is falling short of expectations. This motor has roughly the same power as the GG6 and BOSSG15/21, so at the very least I would expect free-spin rotation to be equal to those - and it's not even close.

Will keep you all posted,
Scott

Good stuff, Scott.

 

[Mike@ShineStruck]

i messaged them too the other day
and it is possible to get correction with no rotation...with at least a 21mm and on a 08 dodge ram ..but you also have to massage the pad across the area it stalled multiple times...making it slower then just attacking from top to bottom