The Cure for M105's short working time and dusting issues

This is a great thread and has prompted me to make my first post here on AG.

Thanks to Al Kimel for linking me to this thread from MOL. Thanks also to Mike Phillips, Kevin Brown, Jason Rose and all the other detailing gurus for sharing your knowledge. :props:
 
This is a great thread and has prompted me to make my first post here on AG.

Thanks to Al Kimel for linking me to this thread from MOL. Thanks also to Mike Phillips, Kevin Brown, Jason Rose and all the other detailing gurus for sharing your knowledge. :props:

Welcome davey!
 
CleaningPadOnTheFly004.jpg


CleaningPadOnTheFly005.jpg

Mike, when you talk of cleaning on the fly you say to turn the machine on but you never really mention at what speed and should the pad be rotating. I have tried this on speed 5 & 6 and it wanted to rip the towel out of my hand, I had to roll the towel up and hold on to it tight where only a small part of the towel was touching about half of the pad and move it back and forth so it wouldn't go flying.
When I look at the above pictures I just don't see how you held onto that towel with the pad spinning without the towel flying away or bunching up on the pad.
I think I'm missing something here.

Also this is a great thread, I have learned a lot! After using 105 only one time I was ready to give up on it but now I am looking forward to trying it again. Thanks everybody:xyxthumbs:
 
Mike, when you talk of cleaning on the fly you say to turn the machine on but you never really mention at what speed and should the pad be rotating. I have tried this on speed 5 & 6 and it wanted to rip the towel out of my hand, I had to roll the towel up and hold on to it tight so it wouldn't go flying.
When I look at the above pictures I just don't see how you held onto that towel with the pad spinning without the towel flying away or bunching up on the pad.
I think I'm missing something here.

Also this is a great thread, I have learned a lot! After using 105 only one time I was ready to give up on it but now I am looking forward to trying it again. Thanks everybody:xyxthumbs:

When I clean the pad like this I wet(dampen) the microfiber and it works ok. Now using a dry towel I have the same question.
 
Mike, when you talk of cleaning on the fly you say to turn the machine on but you never really mention at what speed and should the pad be rotating. I have tried this on speed 5 & 6 and it wanted to rip the towel out of my hand, I had to roll the towel up and hold on to it tight where only a small part of the towel was touching about half of the pad and move it back and forth so it wouldn't go flying.
When I look at the above pictures I just don't see how you held onto that towel with the pad spinning without the towel flying away or bunching up on the pad.
I think I'm missing something here.

Also this is a great thread, I have learned a lot! After using 105 only one time I was ready to give up on it but now I am looking forward to trying it again. Thanks everybody:xyxthumbs:

:iagree: My towel also does that when I'm cleaning the pad. I think it's fine, but I too would like to know how Mike achieved the circular mark on the towel in his pic.

Welcome davey!

Thanks Wills. I've been happy just reading up till now.
 
I understand what you are saying Mike. I too am one that like to follow the manufactuers recommendations but where so many people have the same problems with M105 many people will look for a bandaid solution(KBM w/water or mineral oil) until the issues are address. Perhaps Meguairs already updated the formula and is awaiting its release after sema. :dunno:

Nope. M105 is not getting an updated formula for release at SEMA. Please, I don't want to discount anyone's problems with M105. I believe and understand that some folks are having issues with M105 via DA application. But M105 has many happy users around the world. It has been a home run product and widely successful. It raised the bar on compound performance. However, like any compound in the market...it's not for everyone. Some folks clearly don't like M105 with a DA application, and that's ok. It all goes back to "find something that works for you, and use it."

So, no new M105 formula for SEMA...but who knows, maybe Xmas will come early and you will get something better than a reformulated M105?
icon12.gif
 
So, no new M105 formula for SEMA...but who knows, maybe Xmas will come early and you will get something better than a reformulated M105?
icon12.gif

Jason, didn't anyone ever teach you that it's mean to be a tease? :nomore:

Guess it's a good thing my policy is to never order new supplies this close to SEMA anyway -- I just wait for the release of M115 in case it's better than what I've got now :props:
 
Nope. M105 is not getting an updated formula for release at SEMA. Please, I don't want to discount anyone's problems with M105. I believe and understand that some folks are having issues with M105 via DA application. But M105 has many happy users around the world. It has been a home run product and widely successful. It raised the bar on compound performance. However, like any compound in the market...it's not for everyone. Some folks clearly don't like M105 with a DA application, and that's ok. It all goes back to "find something that works for you, and use it."

So, no new M105 formula for SEMA...but who knows, maybe Xmas will come early and you will get something better than a reformulated M105?
icon12.gif

Well said.

This is turning into an epic thread. :xyxthumbs:
 
Jason, didn't anyone ever teach you that it's mean to be a tease? :nomore:

Guess it's a good thing my policy is to never order new supplies this close to SEMA anyway -- I just wait for the release of M115 in case it's better than what I've got now :props:

So no reformulated M105, but an M115 will be released??? sheeesh... you guys ARE a tease... Im the MAN
 
I understand the concept of paint swelling but I still have not heard of much problems with defects returning just because of the use of mineral oil.

In the past many assumed M80 was a heavy filler product that does not correct but hides the swirls. M80 uses the same oils as M07 and from your own words "Pure polishes intended to "feed" dry paint are specifically formulated for this purpose." With m07 being a pure polish and is formulated to feed/swell paint is it safe to assume M03/05/07/80 can and will also swell paint to a degree.

If so then a product like M80 who's high feeder oil content would theoretically "swell paint" there should be a high number or defects reappearing once the oils have had enough time to evaporated/out gassed. This is not the case though as even if the oils do swell the paint, to some degree, total defect removal is achieved and not simply masked. Since M80 has been proven time and time again to achieve true correct it seems the role of solvents swelling paint to has little real world effect.

I know the majority of compounds and polishes on the market today use mineral oil or glycerin as a lubricating oil and the amount used differ from each manufacturer, but even so, brands like Optimum and Menzerna that use higher amounts of the two oils in their polishes than other companies have none of these problems.

In the end there is really not enough data about the effects of solvents/oils/alcohol swelling paint and hindering the process of defect removal.

:buffing:

There may not be enough data available to you, but product developers know exactly how much of a certain oil or solvent to get paint to swell. And they know exactly what oils or solvents tend not to swell paint. (Paint can swell without you doing anything at all.) The fact is, as you've mentioned, there are many different types of oils that do different things to paint. And like dials on your radio, chemistry can be adjusted to increase or decrease defect removal without even messing with the abrasive set.

The activity of machine polishing paint is a bell curve full of variables, and exceptions to every norm. When you think of the variables involved in compounds/polishes, and then add the variances in paint...wow!...can you say rubic's cube? I am careful to use words like "may" or "can" because I know any conclusion I make will be met with 14 exceptions, 7 "but it didn't when I...", and 4 "that has never happened to me ever!"

I have spent my lifetime and my whole professional career studying paint polishing. I, like you and many others, want to come to simple conclusions and understanding about what is going on. Oh, this does that, so that means it must result in this. But after 30 years with a buffer in my hands the only simple and certain conclusions I have come to are these:
- it's never that simple and never that certain
- I obviously don't know everything so I can always learn something
- I didn't charge enough for that last job
- I am cursed for life because I can never look at beautiful paint without seeing the defects
- And it's ok to leave yesterday's wax in my fingernails. I can just wear it proudly.

But let's keep trying to figure it out. Let's try to understand all that we can. I'm right there with you. Maybe one of us will have the answers in our lifetime? I won't give up if you won't.
Jason

PS - Sorry to get so philosophical on ya, I'm in a mood.
 
I have spent my lifetime and my whole professional career studying paint polishing. I, like you and many others, want to come to simple conclusions and understanding about what is going on. Oh, this does that, so that means it must result in this. But after 30 years with a buffer in my hands the only simple and certain conclusions I have come to are these:
- it's never that simple and never that certain
- I obviously don't know everything so I can always learn something
- I didn't charge enough for that last job
- I am cursed for life because I can never look at beautiful paint without seeing the defects
- And it's ok to leave yesterday's wax in my fingernails. I can just wear it proudly.

^^That's gold! :props:
 
...but who knows, maybe Xmas will come early and you will get something better than a reformulated M105...


Does this have anything to do with the ill-fated supposedly shut down then re-opened then the trail went way cold then it was resurrected if for only a brief moment only to be apparently abandoned because Kevin-may-have-got-beat-up-by-the-mib so he put bags o' frozen peas atop his wounds and decided to avoid any references to the AREA 805 TOP SECRET TESTING BEGINS thread on MOL?

area-805other.jpg


Area 805 top secret testing begins! - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online

If the answer is "yes", then can I assume that the CAT is on the hot tin roof, that the EAGLE has landed, that all work and no play makes JACK a dull boy, and that the CHEESE has big beautiful holes?



:wow:
 
There may not be enough data available to you, but product developers know exactly how much of a certain oil or solvent to get paint to swell. And they know exactly what oils or solvents tend not to swell paint. (Paint can swell without you doing anything at all.) The fact is, as you've mentioned, there are many different types of oils that do different things to paint. And like dials on your radio, chemistry can be adjusted to increase or decrease defect removal without even messing with the abrasive set.

The activity of machine polishing paint is a bell curve full of variables, and exceptions to every norm. When you think of the variables involved in compounds/polishes, and then add the variances in paint...wow!...can you say rubic's cube? I am careful to use words like "may" or "can" because I know any conclusion I make will be met with 14 exceptions, 7 "but it didn't when I...", and 4 "that has never happened to me ever!"

I have spent my lifetime and my whole professional career studying paint polishing. I, like you and many others, want to come to simple conclusions and understanding about what is going on. Oh, this does that, so that means it must result in this. But after 30 years with a buffer in my hands the only simple and certain conclusions I have come to are these:
- it's never that simple and never that certain
- I obviously don't know everything so I can always learn something
- I didn't charge enough for that last job

- I am cursed for life because I can never look at beautiful paint without seeing the defects
- And it's ok to leave yesterday's wax in my fingernails. I can just wear it proudly.

But let's keep trying to figure it out. Let's try to understand all that we can. I'm right there with you. Maybe one of us will have the answers in our lifetime? I won't give up if you won't.
Jason

PS - Sorry to get so philosophical on ya, I'm in a mood.

I really like those two! I'm always trying to learn more which is the one great thing about all these detailing forums....and it always does seem like I should have charged more! :D



Rasky
 
Wow, this is a great thread. Thanks Kevin, Mike and Jason for sharing your knowledge with us. I'll have to say these are my favorite from Jason Rose:

"- I obviously don't know everything so I can always learn something
- I didn't charge enough for that last job
- I am cursed for life because I can never look at beautiful paint without seeing the defects"
 
I too really appreciate the impressive knowledge and willingness of Kevin and Jason sharing with all of us. That really is incredible and thanks to Mike for making it happen. What a place this is, you can't get any closer to the source than that!!!

Also an update. Using G110v2 I went back, reread KB priming/method, plus added Jasons suggestions and I have to admit polishing my removable hard top was absolutely a complete turn around.

I needed to apply different techniques and it worked so great I felt like a little kid at Christmas.

Amazing guys, great thread and I am sold ... again on the 105/205 combo for my personal use. Thanks so much!!!!
 
lasthope05 - what speed were you using the DA on the vid?
 
Back to this fantastic tread which I find to be very informative about 105 that troubles so many peps around the world.

The paint swelling has been mentioned so many times, but no pic of the same has been produced. Except having theoretical views on the paint swelling it would be good for all of us to produce an actual photo of the phenomena.

Anyone has one to upload?

Thanks
 
Back to this fantastic tread which I find to be very informative about 105 that troubles so many peps around the world.

The paint swelling has been mentioned so many times, but no pic of the same has been produced. Except having theoretical views on the paint swelling it would be good for all of us to produce an actual photo of the phenomena.

Anyone has one to upload?

Thanks

Interesting question. I'm not sure a sub-surface phenomenon measured in microns can be photographed. However, an evidentual outcome of swelling is the reduction of top coat thickness after a while. This can be measured.
Also, the surface roughness changes with swelling and shrinkage...this too can be measured with digital profilometers.

Paint is a semi-permeable elastic membrane. Swelling, stretching, and shrinking happens a lot more than people think.

But I like your question. I'm gonna think on it.
 
Paint is a semi-permeable elastic membrane. Swelling, stretching, and shrinking happens a lot more than people think.

The flexibility of paint is clear once you see a few dents removed by a PDR guy with no signs of a previous dent after he finishes.
 
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