Can't Get Rid Of Brown Tires!

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Not necessarily. There was a thread by Mike P or someone from Optimum recently on here, (I can't remember who or the name of the thread) but they were saying how acidity and alkaline of the cleaning product doesn't dictate cleaning power. They used an example where a strongly alkaline product was not as aggressive in cleaning as a less strong alkaline product that was closer to PH 7 (neutral).

Wish I could remember more details.

Gee, thanks for the tease!!! JK!

Very interesting info, Matt. :dblthumb2:

 

[FUNX650]

Then you're sacrificing cleaning power, IMO.

Bob, do you know the pH of P21S TAW?

FWIW, I recently tried DP Cleanse-All(alkaline) on tires, wheel wells, and paint and I really liked it.

Hi Mark...

Cleaning power is often determined by the strength of the detergent's alkalinity, such as is accomplished in the P21S line-up of ph controlled/balanced cleaning products.
P21S TAW is one of those products

What ph balanced basically means is that the solution ('cleaners' in this case) measures less than ph ten (<10) and more than ph 7 (>7) when testing with litmus papers/strips, or a ph meter.

If something measures 8 on the ph scale, it is a base (alkaline/alkali), and is 10 times stronger than ph neutral 7. Something measuring 12 on the ph scale is also a base, and is 100,000 times more alkaline than ph 7. And so on, going either direction on the ph scale, with readings below 7 considered acids.
This phenomenon is explained as being logarithmic in nature.

I only breached the ph balanced/controlled issue to inform the OP, and anyone else that was interested, that there are possible harmful effects from using different types of products to clean tires with.
It is often very difficult, to completely control, keeping all of a product being used for tire-cleaning purposes, off the wheels/rims, upon which they are mounted.

A sample of ph readings for tire/wheel cleaners:

ARO: ph 13-14 and contains butyls [I remember your concern about this chemical]
P21S Wheel Cleaners & TAW: ph's between 7.5 (wheel cleaners)to 9.5 (TAW)...All are ph controlled.
Griot's Wheel Cleaner: ph 7.1...(BTW...Recommended by BBS and Dayton Wire Wheels)
Meguiar's D140 Wheel Brightener: ph between 5.0-4.1 (on the acid side of the ph scale...diluting with water doesn't make it a much less/weaker acid)...And it contains ammonium bifluoride (ABF) which can wreak havoc on bare/polished aluminum wheels.
Most APC's: ph between 9.5-12.0....Usually capable of being diluted to lower the ph value, and having different levels of 'cleaning power'.

Hope this helps a little.

Happy New Year!!!



Bob

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Hi Mark...

Cleaning power is often determined by the strength of the detergent's alkalinity, such as is accomplished in the P21S line-up of ph controlled/balanced cleaning products.
P21S TAW is one of those products

What ph balanced basically means is that the solution ('cleaners' in this case) measures less than ph ten (<10) and more than ph 7 (>7) when testing with litmus papers/strips, or a ph meter.

If something measures 8 on the ph scale, it is a base (alkaline/alkali), and is 10 times stronger than ph neutral 7. Something measuring 12 on the ph scale is also a base, and is 100,000 times more alkaline than ph 7. And so on, going either direction on the ph scale, with readings below 7 considered acids.
This phenomenon is explained as being logarithmic in nature.

I only breached the ph balanced/controlled issue to inform the OP, and anyone else that was interested, that there are possible harmful effects from using different types of products to clean tires with.
It is often very difficult, to completely control, keeping all of a product being used for tire-cleaning purposes, off the wheels/rims, upon which they are mounted.

A sample of ph readings for tire/wheel cleaners:

ARO: ph 13-14 and contains butyls [I remember your concern about this chemical]
P21S Wheel Cleaners & TAW: ph's between 7.5 (wheel cleaners)to 9.5 (TAW)...All are ph controlled.
Griot's Wheel Cleaner: ph 7.1...(BTW...Recommended by BBS and Dayton Wire Wheels)
Meguiar's D140 Wheel Brightener: ph between 5.0-4.1 (on the acid side of the ph scale...diluting with water doesn't make it a much less/weaker acid)...And it contains ammonium bifluoride (ABF) which can wreak havoc on bare/polished aluminum wheels.
Most APC's: ph between 9.5-12.0....Usually capable of being diluted to lower the ph value, and having different levels of 'cleaning power'.

Hope this helps a little.

Happy New Year!!!



Bob

Thanks, Bob!

So, in the case of removing brown from tires, ARO will have a big edge compared to P21S TAW(based on both pH's), correct?

Do you happen to know the pH of DP Cleanse-All?

Happy New Year!!! rops:

 

[Setec Astronomy]

So, in the case of removing brown from tires, ARO will have a big edge compared to P21S TAW(based on both pH's), correct?

I think ARO will have an edge based on the butyl content, which is a good cleaner but there are some concerns environmentally and with personnel exposure. Generally speaking, the cleaning power of the product isn't driven by the pH, the pH is driven by the ingredients of the product. So although the pH is part of the story, it's not the whole story. So although it may be true that a high or low pH cleaner is effective, it's effective due to the ingredients, which may be responsible for the pH. If it was all as simple as pH, we wouldn't need chemists like Dr. G.

 

[Kevin Brown]

Whiplash Willy...

Not everything that is cleanable is water soluble. This is the case... in this case!

Saturate a portion of white cotton towel with lacquer thinner, and rub it against the tire.
Any dirt, grime, oxidized rubber, wax, carbon black, etc., will wipe right off.
Make sure to use a new section of towel as you wipe the grime away.
Otherwise, the grime will transfer from the towel back onto the sidewall.

Although the thinner is very strong, any residual thinner resting on the sidewall will evaporate away quickly.
Therefore, it won't cause any long-term negative effects on the tire.

Don't use acetone because it evaporates so quickly that the residue will transfer from the tire to the towel and right back onto the tire!

I think you will be very happy with the results.... should take about 10 seconds per sidewall. Then, use a dressing as you normally would.

 

[FUNX650]

Thanks, Bob!

So, in the case of removing brown from tires, ARO will have a big edge compared to P21S TAW(based on both pH's), correct?

Do you happen to know the pH of DP Cleanse-All?

Happy New Year!!! rops:

Mark...

Sometimes: Having a big edge... one cleaning product may have over another cleaning product shouldn't always be based on just the overall ph value of the products, but should include the "cleaning ingredients" ph values, along with the other ingredients (chemicals) that go into formulating each product. Having a big edge, in this respect, may not equate to a better or safer product.

But why start off with a product whose ph value is on either the high-end or low-end of the ph scale, IMO. The base, or acid, used for the cleaning role in some products, and their corresponding ph values, does play an important role in determining the overall products' ph value/diluting ability.
I personally don't have a problem in choosing cleaning products that are ph balanced/controlled from the get-go.

Remember some acids when diluted will not always make them less acidic....Same with some bases. And then again, it depends on the diluting substances that might be added.

Here's a chart of some acids and bases and their ph values

ACIDS:
Compound Name- Formula- pH
hydrochloric acid- HCl- 1.1
sulfuric acid- H2SO4- 1.2
sodium bisulfate- NaHSO4- 1.4
sulfurous acid- H2SO3- 1.5
phosphoric acid- H3PO4- 1.5
hydrofluoric acid- HF- 2.1
acetic acid- HC2H3O2- 2.9
carbonic acid- H2CO3- 2.8
hydrogen sulfide- H2S- 4.1
sodium dihydrogen- NaH2PO4- 4.4
phosphate
ammonium chloride- NH4Cl- 4.6
hydrocyanic acid- HCN- 5.1
sodium sulfate- NaSO4- 6.1
sodium chloride- NaCl- 6.4

Water-H2O-7.0 (neutral)

BASES:
Compound Name- Formula- pH
sodium acetate- NaC2H3O2- 8.4
sodium bicarbonate- NaHCO3- 8.4
sodium biphosphate- Na2HPO4- 9.3
sodium sulfite- NaSO3- 9.8
sodium cyanide- NaCN- 11.0
ammonia- NH3- 11.1
sodium carbonate- NaCO3- 11.6
sodium phosphate- Na3PO4- 12.0
sodium hydroxide- NaOH- 13.0


I wonder which of the above bases (alkalines) ARO and P21S products have in them? The ph range indicates they would be between sodium chloride (a salt) and sodium hydroxide (lye).

As far as the ph of DP CleanseAll...That info should be listed on the product's MSDS. Or, perhaps an inquiring call to one of the AG reps. may be fruitful.


Again..I hope this helps a little.




Bob

 

[Flash Gordon]

Whiplash Willy...

Not everything that is cleanable is water soluble. This is the case... in this case!

Saturate a portion of white cotton towel with lacquer thinner, and rub it against the tire.
Any dirt, grime, oxidized rubber, wax, carbon black, etc., will wipe right off.
Make sure to use a new section of towel as you wipe the grime away.
Otherwise, the grime will transfer from the towel back onto the sidewall.

Although the thinner is very strong, any residual thinner resting on the sidewall will evaporate away quickly.
Therefore, it won't cause any long-term negative effects on the tire.

Don't use acetone because it evaporates so quickly that the residue will transfer from the tire to the towel and right back onto the tire!

I think you will be very happy with the results.... should take about 10 seconds per sidewall. Then, use a dressing as you normally would.

Whiplash Willy,

Take this guys advice before you try anything else

 

[FUNX650]

Whiplash Willy...

Not everything that is cleanable is water soluble. This is the case... in this case!

Saturate a portion of white cotton towel with lacquer thinner, and rub it against the tire.
Any dirt, grime, oxidized rubber, wax, carbon black, etc., will wipe right off.
Make sure to use a new section of towel as you wipe the grime away.
Otherwise, the grime will transfer from the towel back onto the sidewall.

Although the thinner is very strong, any residual thinner resting on the sidewall will evaporate away quickly.
Therefore, it won't cause any long-term negative effects on the tire.

Don't use acetone because it evaporates so quickly that the residue will transfer from the tire to the towel and right back onto the tire!

I think you will be very happy with the results.... should take about 10 seconds per sidewall. Then, use a dressing as you normally would.

-Not only am I old, I'm also from the 'old school' of using many varied products on many various vehicle surfaces. Sometimes actually being successful in what I was trying to achieve, I may add.
-Lacquer thinners, on occasion, (back then), got a pretty good workout, especially on the wide white-walls.

-But removing carbon black from tires was never my goal...Just the opposite. Because....
-I thought the tire manufactures put carbon black into their tire-making formulations in order to make tires "look black".

-I don't know of any tire dressing that contains carbon black in their formulations, that, when applied to a tire's sidewalls, will impart, back into any section of a tire, any carbon black that may be so removed by a "laquer-thinner-cleaning-of tire's-sidewalls-process.

Anyway, going forward...
Since lacquer thinner "Brands" differ in their primary active ingredients....Acetone, toluene, for example...Which Brand do you recommend if, as you suggest: To don't use acetone?

I'm not saying lacquer thinner won't work, in this case...I just feel there are now on the market: Safer methods/products.

Thanks for your assistance.


NOTE:
Most of today's tire manufacturers recommend to not use any tire dressings. Their tire warranties, as they state, may, or can be voided. Most of us don't pay too much attention to that, including me at times.




Bob

 

[Kevin Brown]

Good points, Bob. I kinda wondered if I'd be called to the mat on this recommendation.

Regardless which method is employed to remove sidewall "browning", once it in fact has been eliminated, the cleaned rubber will be exposed to the elements.

As the tire rolls along, waxes or carbon black will migrate to the tire sidewall once again. As we all know, dressings are designed to supplement the protection, hopefully not causing damage in the process!

If the carbon black or other protective ingredients of the tire have become laden with dirt or brake pad & rotor residue (metallic particles/resins/glues), or if the carbon black & other protective ingredients themselves have become old or oxidized yet are still attached to the tire, then it does not matter the method used to remove the browning or browned ingredients, so long as the rubber itself is not destroyed in the process.

Whether a guy decides to scrub the tire using a detergent or tire dressing and a scrub brush or pad; whether he decides to soak the tire in Coca Cola (not being a wisecrack... some old-timers swear by this); whether he uses a steamer to melt the browning away; or whether he decides to use a solvent to lift the dirt and wax from the surface (in my case I recommended a lacquer thinner), in the end, the result is the same: the tire sidewall has been exposed to the elements sans protection.

To reinvigorate protection of the sidewall, a supplemental product must be placed upon the sidewall, in hopes of restoring some sort of protection from the elements. At least, until "blooming" restores the built-in protection to the sidewall.

Once the browning has been eliminated, the goal of the cleaning is reached. While I don't recommend use a solvent or thinner weekly or monthly, it is a viable alternative if brown sidewalls bug the heck out of a guy. The cleaning action is super-fast, and no detrimental residue remains that could damage the tire.

If the tires are not driven on all that much, then browning will likely not be all that bad. If the tires are located in an environment that destroys the carbon black or waxy substance coating the sidewall (since the tire is not rolling and therefore does not force more protectant to the surface via blooming), then they will certainly be destroyed more rapidly than tires located in a less harsh environment (such as a garage, hidden from excess heat, rain, direct sunlight, etc.).

If the tires are driven on frequently, I suppose typical tire life varies from 1-4 years. Certainly, harsh cleaning could lessen the life of a tire.

Is removal of "browning" ever a good thing? In terms of tire protection and longevity, its likely that the answer is "no".

As for the brand of thinner... I am not overly concerned with a particular brand. Medium-speed flashing thinner is what is generally available at places like Home Depot, OSH, etc. Solvent identified as Acetone will remove tire browning, but they evaporate so quickly when spread thin that oftentimes the browning is immediately re-applied to the tire.

Whew. :surrender:

 

[2old2change]

Thanks Kevin for the in-depth description of tire browning and its removal. Things have come a long way since the day we used brake fluid at the used car lot to make em "Front Row Ready".

 

[bobble]

No need to worry about the ARO. I use it quite a bit on a variety of things (mainly boats) with no adverse effect to finishes. As others have stated no need to dilute just spray, let it dwell, scrub and spray off. I've got the nasiest muck from waterways off my jet skis in minutes compared to many others using it. I've converted countless people on the boat ramps to use this stuff, in fact the folks at West Marine in Dana Point harbor should comp me some as I've sent dozens scurrying over there to buy it on the spot.

I'd follow Kevins recs as he knows this stuff. I used to clean cars as a teenager for a neighbor that had a used car lot. All we ever used was Zipwax to wash and laquer thinner/brake fluid or kerosene to shine them up.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I'm not going to get too anal with this. If the paint or wheels are clear coated, a "safe" alkaline cleaner should not cause any damage, even long term, if used properly. If I come across un-coated wheels, or whatever it might be, I'll definitely use more caution.

 

[Chris Thomas]

Power Clean has a ph of 11 and has brought brown off that other stuff left for me. I remember the thread too...but not the title.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Power Clean has a ph of 11 and has brought brown off that other stuff left for me.

:dblthumb2:

 

[FUNX650]

I'm not going to get too anal with this. If the paint or wheels are clear coated, a "safe" alkaline cleaner should not cause any damage, even long term, if used properly. If I come across un-coated wheels, or whatever it might be, I'll definitely use more caution.

That's the main thing, Mark.
Safety, for yourself, and then taking cautionary measures while using chemicals in the performance of car-care....Better known as: Detailing.

I Hope Everyone Will Do the Same As You Have Demonstrated.




Bob

 

[Bunky]

:dblthumb2:

I have also had better luck with OPC on tire brown compared to ARO but it can take a couple cycles to get them really clean. I am sure some cleaners just work better with certain types of soiling so this explains why people get different results.

My DD's Michelin's brown readily but the Michelins on my Dakota have always been easy to clean with minimal browning. One difference in the DD michelins have a lot of ribbing on side wall too and the Dakota LTX's are smooth sided.

I will try the mf idea today assuming the weather cooperates.

 

[Meticulous-Detail]

Side note: I was cleaning some really dirty rims with Megs WB and got some WB on the tires. I scrubbed that section of the tire with a tire brush and it looked brand new. I did the other 3 tires and they looked great, they looked really clean and black.

Anyone else ever use Megs WB on the tires?

 

[jta98z]

Sorry for reviving an old thread here but as I was reading this I have become a bit confused. Both mine and my wife's car tend to get the tire blooming over time.

From reading this, however, these are the views I gather:

1. It's a natural process which is unavoidable no matter what you clean with. If the brown is still there after cleaning, they're still clean so just slap some dressing on to cover it.

2. The browning has come from using too harsh a cleaner on the tires.

Which is correct lol?

 

[HUMP DIESEL]

I did not think you could change the PH by dilution? I may be wrong, but I think I just saw that somewhere.

HUMP

 

[Bunky]

From reading this, however, these are the views I gather:

1. It's a natural process which is unavoidable no matter what you clean with. If the brown is still there after cleaning, they're still clean so just slap some dressing on to cover it.

2. The browning has come from using too harsh a cleaner on the tires.

Which is correct lol?

1. Natural process. I found Mothers Back to Black Tire Cleaner to excel at removing brown. In any event, you can cover it with dressing however I am not sure if the dressing is less durable.

2. Heard this but seen no proof. I am sure using the wrong product on a given surface can do harm in one way or another.