Rotary VS Dual Action for Compounding

Calendyr said:
1- Has not happened yet on things that could be done with a tool. Every instances where the DA could not do it, sanding was required. But I still try the wool pad/rotary combo before jumping to sanding, just in case.
2- A second of loosing focus with a rotary is all it takes to burn an edge. You can't do that with a DA. Sure if you stay on an edge for a while, the DA can burn through it, but it will never do it in a second like a rotary can.
3 - And... you can't really do 1 steps with a rotary and get a decent result...
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1 - Could your compounding have been done faster with your rotary?
2 - Losing focus with a DA can cause dings, scratches, pigtails, etc. so we are not considering human error. So leave burning out of this.
3 - I have already stated that you should not compound and leave unfinished. So comparing apples to apples, we are comparing only 2 step details. Whether you compound with a rotary or a DA, you still need to follow up with a second step.
 
Calendyr said:
1- Has not happened yet on things that could be done with a tool. Every instances where the DA could not do it, sanding was required. But I still try the wool pad/rotary combo before jumping to sanding, just in case.
2- A second of loosing focus with a rotary is all it takes to burn an edge. You can't do that with a DA. Sure if you stay on an edge for a while, the DA can burn through it, but it will never do it in a second like a rotary can.
3 - And... you can't really do 1 steps with a rotary and get a decent result...
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Also, it is a misconception about a rotary EASILY burning paint. If you have not done any testing for yourself, how can you make this claim?
 
Now know I have not any really experience to this rotary vs 21mm longthrow polisher. The one thing I think about is not which compound step that is faster to the other. But also the last step takes time. If you cut heavy with a rotary or 21mm how long does it takes to finish polish it after the compounding step? Be cause everyone says that the rotary leaves more defects after this than a 21mm. Does you save more time to use 21mm and da with 2 step correction or is it faster still to go rotary and da 2 step correction?
I think it comes down to the personal preference to do it. What you are most used to use. Say that you are used to work on heavy defects all day and correct sanding marks. You may work faster and more safely with rotary and da. If you you 1/10 times have to heavy compound it's maybe faster for you to use your 21mm.
That's why I think it's more to what kind of correction you are used to work on. Be cause if the goal is to level down clearcoat to get defects away you are going to do it with either rotary or da or sanding. If you use the method you are most used to use the safer and quicker you get it done.
 
jslym777 said:
I am just pushing hard questions to get definitive answers.
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If this were really true, you'd do this experiment for yourself.

You asked which cut faster, and then allowed yourself (not anyone else) the luxury of "rephrasing" the question.

What is your opinion - in your experience? Let's answer that before further cross examination.
 
dlc95 said:
If this were really true, you'd do this experiment for yourself.

You asked which cut faster, and then allowed yourself (not anyone else) the luxury of "rephrasing" the question.

What is your opinion - in your experience? Let's answer that before further cross examination.
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I have not rephrased MY question, I have only asked to confirm if/then statements, provided others input be true statements

I gave my opinion in the first post.
 
.


Just to interject here, (because that's what I do, call me the "Interjector")


This is a great discussion, try not to lose focus of the original question, which is about doing a 2-step process starting with a rotary for both speed and defect removal, (that's right right?). And if you look at the third paragraph in my first reply to this thread,

Post #14


The third paragraph states the below and note the portion that is bold.


Mike Phillips said:
When I say there's a million ways to skin a cat, what you use depends on what you want to accomplish plus how much time you want to invest.
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Most people detailing cars for money should be doing production detailing or one-steps. By one step I mean using a one-step cleaner/wax and NOT trying to remove each and every single defect because they can't charge enough to make it profitable. Here's my article on this topic,


A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business


But for those of you working on your OWN CAR where time and money is not an issue, then cut with rotary and finish with an orbital. For those of you doing this for money,

Match your services to your customer

If you sold a one-step package stick with an orbital.

If you sold a two-step process then you should still be using an orbital.

If you sold a 3-step package then you're free to do as you will when it comes to tool choice. Use a rotary followed by an orbital or use an orbital for both step. You know your skill level with your tools, you can figure this stuff out.



The Big Picture

Keep in mind, that the fact that we are all members of a car detailing discussion forum... talking about car detailing... means we all have more in common than differences.


Make sense?


:)
 
Mike Phillips said:
.


Just to interject here, (because that's what I do, call me the "Interjector")


This is a great discussion, try not to lose focus of the original question, which is about doing a 2-step process starting with a rotary for both speed and defect removal, (that's right right?). And if you look at the third paragraph in my first reply to this thread,

Post #14


The third paragraph states the below and note the portion that is bold.





Most people detailing cars for money should be doing production detailing or one-steps. By one step I mean using a one-step cleaner/wax and NOT trying to remove each and every single defect because they can't charge enough to make it profitable. Here's my article on this topic,


A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business


But for those of you working on your OWN CAR where time and money is not an issue, then cut with rotary and finish with an orbital. For those of you doing this for money,

Match your services to your customer

If you sold a one-step package stick with an orbital.

If you sold a two-step process then you should still be using an orbital.

If you sold a 3-step package then you're free to do as you will when it comes to tool choice. Use a rotary followed by an orbital or use an orbital for both step. You know your skill level with your tools, you can figure this stuff out.



The Big Picture

Keep in mind, that the fact that we are all members of a car detailing discussion forum... talking about car detailing... means we all have more in common than differences.


Make sense?


:)
Click to expand...

Mike, correct. I am talking about using a 2 step process for the correction work. Step 2 remains the same in both instances, a DA that removes the rotary work and finishes down well. The variable here is step one. For a car that needs heavy compounding, grab the Rotary or grab the DA to make step 1 more efficient. I also wanted to keep "burn" out of the discussion because an experienced rotary operator will not burn the paint. A DA can heat paint to unsafe temperature as well. So do not consider burn an issue. (DA's even the new long throws, are advertised as safe to the inexperienced user but many users say it will cut faster than a rotary - how can this be true? faster cut and still safer? and if so, why then is the rotary so dangerous if it doesn't cut as fast?)

I am using this forum to try to hash out facts instead of misconceptions for each tool. Not to say someone is doing something wrong. If I am challenging your statements, tell me the data behind your initial response. If you have trouble answering my follow up questions or statements, don't take it personally, in fact, ask yourself why it is hard to answer. This type of reasoning can only make everyone more knowledgeable.
 
I have always enjoyed the many different perspectives and experience levels here. Because of that I enjoy these discussions.

However (and also because of those opinions) I find it damn near impossible to ever get a definitive answer to these types of questions i.e. everyone agrees with a single conclusive point.

I read every post in discussions like these. I get great value out of some who offer things like "I can cut as fast as a rotary with X machine and Y pad". Especially when that combo is something I have not tried (yet). I never argue with that. I can't. I like to maintain an open mind and consider the fact, as Mike puts it, there are many ways to skin a cat.

As I said earlier, I tend to agree with your original post, jslym777 on some jobs however not ALL.
 
Paul A. said:
I have always enjoyed the many different perspectives and experience levels here. Because of that I enjoy these discussions.

However (and also because of those opinions) I find it damn near impossible to ever get a definitive answer to these types of questions i.e. everyone agrees with a single conclusive point.

I read every post in discussions like these. I get great value out of some who offer things like "I can cut as fast as a rotary with X machine and Y pad". Especially when that combo is something I have not tried (yet). I never argue with that. I can't. I like to maintain an open mind and consider the fact, as Mike puts it, there are many ways to skin a cat.

As I said earlier, I tend to agree with your original post, jslym777 on some jobs however not ALL.
Click to expand...

Of course, not all jobs require that much compounding, and if you can achieve results in one step, efficiently, then you should take it. But also consider how long you are spending on your single step. If it takes you 20 minutes to work one panel in a single step compared to a 2 step that takes you 7 minutes to cut and 8 minutes to finish, you're still better off with the 2 step process.
 
Agreed. However on my 2 step I might need my rotary for 4 minutes OR my Flex 3401 for 6 mins depending on the job and paint in front of me.
 
jslym777 said:
I have not rephrased MY question, I have only asked to confirm if/then statements, provided others input be true statements

I gave my opinion in the first post.
Click to expand...


Cool. That'll work.
 
Well for what it's worth...

In keeping with what I already posted in this thread about the desired results I want to achieve and the time I have to work with, I'm going out to the garage to machine compound an SUV using the FLEX 3401.

Speed + correction ability + finishing ability + it doesn't care one whit what the shape of the panel is...

I'm testing out the new GYEON compound, look for my review tomorrow.

AND - I've posted a bunch of Facebook Live videos to my FB page today.

See my Signature Line to find the real Mike Phillips as there are tons of us out there.


:laughing:
 
I think the difference in the technical term is rpm vs opm. And what kind of pad and compound you are useing. Then you have the size to take in the mix also. And the speed you can have on the machines with this combos. And at last what kind of clearcoat you are going to work on. The variables are so many so I don't think you can say excactly which is the most efficient if you don't test it side by side.

Which do you think is the most efficient machine on a clearcoat that is in the middle of hardness. You have let say menzerna fg400 as compound and a lake country orange thinpro pad. Defects is so bad that a polish don't cut it but a rotary with wool par is to aggressive. You have a flex 14-2 rotary and rupes 21mm mark 2 with and flex 3401 and gg6. All have 5" backing plates and the user is good to hold up the highest opm as possible on the free spinning tools.

Which user get the most efficient cutting done?

I think that I got the most variables in that description. Help me out otherwise.
 
Joel1979 said:
Yeah, i wonder how many times it has to be said.
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Is heat completely unrelated to cut? Or can it be that the two are just not positively correlated? Can a long throw or forced DA produce as much heat as a rotary? How much heat does it take to burn the paint?
 
SWETM said:
I think the difference in the technical term is rpm vs opm. And what kind of pad and compound you are useing. Then you have the size to take in the mix also. And the speed you can have on the machines with this combos. And at last what kind of clearcoat you are going to work on. The variables are so many so I don't think you can say excactly which is the most efficient if you don't test it side by side.

Which do you think is the most efficient machine on a clearcoat that is in the middle of hardness. You have let say menzerna fg400 as compound and a lake country orange thinpro pad. Defects is so bad that a polish don't cut it but a rotary with wool par is to aggressive. You have a flex 14-2 rotary and rupes 21mm mark 2 with and flex 3401 and gg6. All have 5" backing plates and the user is good to hold up the highest opm as possible on the free spinning tools.

Which user get the most efficient cutting done?

I think that I got the most variables in that description. Help me out otherwise.
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There are still so many variables unfortunately. Is the paint rock hard or soft and porous? If it's soft and porous the best option is likely the GG6 because it produces the least amount of heat. If it's a vehicle with a lot of flat and concave surfaces the Rupes 21mk2 would like best the best option, if it's a small vehicle with a ton of trim, convex curves, and tight areas that require a tool that provides more precision either the Rotary or GG6 would be a better option.

It all comes down to the user and their preference and comfort level. I am most comfortable with rotary and lambswool. I like how it allows more airflow through the fibers which keeps the pad and paint cool. It's vibration free and offers amazing precision. I know I have far less risk of making a mistake with the rotary than I do with the 21mm tool.

With a 21mm I have to be far more diligent about taping trim prior to correcting because the large throw requires me to bring the pad directly over some trim areas. There is really no right or wrong answer because it depends on the operator. I do a lot of wet sanding jobs to level orange peel on repaints and I find that it takes me far less time and the paint stays far cooler with a rotary than it does with a long-throw and a microfiber. But maybe if I was more proficient on a long-throw polisher I would feel differently. There is no way of testing because we are all different and we all have different styles.

One thing I will say is that I haven't used foam on a rotary in several years. When guys burn paint with the rotary polisher it tends to be with foam. Foam creates more heat and friction which IMO any other polisher option is a better option for cutting than a rotary and a foam cutting pad. I know that's ironic considering in my profile photo I'm using the rotary with foam.lol. That was several years ago though. I was just a boy!
 
jslym777 said:
Also, it is a misconception about a rotary EASILY burning paint. If you have not done any testing for yourself, how can you make this claim?
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For one every book I have read have mentioned it. And I have seen many cars with burned paint from previous details done in car washes. I don't need to kill myself to know that pointing a gun at my head and pulling the trigger can be fatal. :)
 
Agree, rotary best with wool and what I use them for but lately no real need for rotary anymore. Carpro Clear Cut on Mille and 21 MKII does everything.
 
jslym777 said:
Of course, not all jobs require that much compounding, and if you can achieve results in one step, efficiently, then you should take it. But also consider how long you are spending on your single step. If it takes you 20 minutes to work one panel in a single step compared to a 2 step that takes you 7 minutes to cut and 8 minutes to finish, you're still better off with the 2 step process.
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Well... yes and no....

Might save a bit of time on the work but you have to take into account that changing pad (and machine), prepping the pad, starting the work and the wiping the pannel off also takes time... so in the end you are very likelly taking a lot longer with the 2 step than with a 1 step (or course the result will be better as well).

For 1 step, I usually do them as I would do a compound, so slow arm movement and doing about 6 section passes. Doing an entire car takes me about 3 hours. When I do a 2 step, it usually takes me about twice as long overall (using a Long throw DA). If I was to use a rotary + DA as you suggest, I think I could probably shave off maybe an hour out of it. Maybe I am wrong... you seems to prefer rotary polishers, so how long does it take you to compound a whole car?
 
Calendyr said:
Well... yes and no....

Might save a bit of time on the work but you have to take into account that changing pad (and machine), prepping the pad, starting the work and the wiping the pannel off also takes time... so in the end you are very likelly taking a lot longer with the 2 step than with a 1 step (or course the result will be better as well).

For 1 step, I usually do them as I would do a compound, so slow arm movement and doing about 6 section passes. Doing an entire car takes me about 3 hours. When I do a 2 step, it usually takes me about twice as long overall (using a Long throw DA). If I was to use a rotary + DA as you suggest, I think I could probably shave off maybe an hour out of it. Maybe I am wrong... you seems to prefer rotary polishers, so how long does it take you to compound a whole car?
Click to expand...

I might do a video or look for a video online about burning paint. As you said, you've read about it, and have seen it. But do you know what it takes to produce it? As DA's have gotten better with material and product, so has Rotary. Rotaries aren't used at max speed anymore. Again, maybe I'll do a demo on this because this keeps being brought up as the argument even though I said to leave it out for discussion purposes.

Changing machine and pad doesn't matter because that is a wash whether you're working one tool or two, still have to clean the pad or pads as often.
 
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